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RE: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation

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  • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
    What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 10, 2009
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      What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
      nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

      J Coates

      -----Original Message-----
      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
      Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation

      My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
      God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
      John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
      in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
      imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

      I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
      (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
      depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
      John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
      Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
      and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
      refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

      This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
      Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
      This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the

      This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
      modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
      Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
      explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
      "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
      Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt

      The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
      from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
      Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
      15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

      I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
      (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

      I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
      It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
      Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

      Ken Gentry
      Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
      To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
      Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

      Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
      are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
      the church? I


      Dr. Tom Ricks


      From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
      Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
      To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

      I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
      wooden with your approach.

      The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
      one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
      entry [through its Messiah].

      Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
      not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
      Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
      That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
      "perfectly holy."

      I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
      "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
      Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

      I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

      Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
      interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
      with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
      is not all of a single genre.

      Hope this helps!

      "Dr. J"
      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
      Regent Unversity

      --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
      > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
      Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
      Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
      all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
      exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
      literal. This wou
      ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
      methodology which does just that.
      > For example:
      > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
      gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
      member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
      Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
      > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
      fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
      edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
      a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
      Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
      clearly intended to be symbolic.
      > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
      church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
      exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
      > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
      harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
      but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
      Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
      began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
      symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
      gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
      Jewish one.
      > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
      are just guessing out of our own minds.
      > Yours
      > John B

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