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RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • Tom Ricks
    Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately I have heard way too much on the wild speculation side of the story!) Tom Dr. Tom
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 9 7:30 AM
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      Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately
      I have heard way too much on the "wild speculation" side of the story!)




      Tom

      Dr. Tom Ricks

      ________________________________

      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:48 AM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



      I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
      city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

      The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
      God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
      different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
      since Revelation was penned.

      Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
      situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
      depends upon Revelation itself.

      That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
      is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
      the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
      as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

      Blessings,
      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
      Regent University
      Moderator

      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Ricks" <tom@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
      > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history
      of
      > the church? I
      >
      >
      >
      > Tom
      >
      > Dr. Tom Ricks
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of drjenney2
      > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
      >
      >
      >
      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
      > wooden with your approach.
      >
      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
      > entry [through its Messiah].
      >
      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
      > "perfectly holy."
      >
      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
      >
      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
      >
      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
      > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
      > is not all of a single genre.
      >
      > Hope this helps!
      >
      > "Dr. J"
      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
      > Regent Unversity
      > Moderator
      >
      > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
      > <biblestudy@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
      > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
      > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
      > methodology which does just that.
      > >
      > > For example:
      > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
      > Israelites.
      > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
      > >
      > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
      > >
      > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
      > Jewish one.
      > >
      > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
      > >
      > > Yours
      > > John B
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
      What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 10 1:57 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
        nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

        J Coates



        -----Original Message-----
        From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
        Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation



        My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
        God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
        John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
        in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
        imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

        I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
        (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
        depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
        John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
        Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
        and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
        refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

        This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
        Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
        This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the
        devil."

        This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
        modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
        Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
        explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
        "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
        Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt
        23:32-36).

        The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
        from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
        Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
        15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

        I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
        (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

        I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
        It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
        Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

        Ken Gentry
        Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
        .com>
        To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
        Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

        Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
        are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
        the church? I

        Tom

        Dr. Tom Ricks

        ________________________________

        From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
        Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
        To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
        wooden with your approach.

        The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
        one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
        entry [through its Messiah].

        Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
        not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
        Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
        That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
        "perfectly holy."

        I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
        "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
        Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

        I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

        Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
        interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
        with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
        is not all of a single genre.

        Hope this helps!

        "Dr. J"
        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
        Regent Unversity
        Moderator

        --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
        <biblestudy@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
        Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
        Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
        all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
        exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
        literal. This wou
        ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
        methodology which does just that.
        >
        > For example:
        > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
        gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
        member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
        Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
        Israelites.
        > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
        fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
        edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
        a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
        Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
        clearly intended to be symbolic.
        >
        > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
        church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
        exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
        >
        > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
        harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
        but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
        Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
        began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
        symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
        gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
        Jewish one.
        >
        > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
        are just guessing out of our own minds.
        >
        > Yours
        > John B

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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