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RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • Tom Ricks
    Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately I have heard way too much on the wild speculation side of the story!) Tom Dr. Tom
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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      Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately
      I have heard way too much on the "wild speculation" side of the story!)




      Tom

      Dr. Tom Ricks

      ________________________________

      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:48 AM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



      I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
      city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

      The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
      God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
      different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
      since Revelation was penned.

      Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
      situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
      depends upon Revelation itself.

      That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
      is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
      the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
      as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

      Blessings,
      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
      Regent University
      Moderator

      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Ricks" <tom@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
      > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history
      of
      > the church? I
      >
      >
      >
      > Tom
      >
      > Dr. Tom Ricks
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of drjenney2
      > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
      >
      >
      >
      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
      > wooden with your approach.
      >
      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
      > entry [through its Messiah].
      >
      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
      > "perfectly holy."
      >
      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
      >
      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
      >
      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
      > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
      > is not all of a single genre.
      >
      > Hope this helps!
      >
      > "Dr. J"
      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
      > Regent Unversity
      > Moderator
      >
      > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
      > <biblestudy@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
      > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
      > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
      > methodology which does just that.
      > >
      > > For example:
      > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
      > Israelites.
      > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
      > >
      > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
      > >
      > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
      > Jewish one.
      > >
      > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
      > >
      > > Yours
      > > John B
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • biblestudy
      Hi, I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic.
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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        Hi,
        I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic. After all Gentiles get in, don't we?
        Also I was pointing out that the idea of 144,000 is clearly symbolic, being the external dimensions of the city, i.e. the border that includes all the inhabitants.
        I don't think such interpretation is wooden at all. Simply reflects the symbols as given in the book. If we don't use the keys John gives us then we are inventing our own. And who says that we have been given the secret code?
        John B

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: drjenney2
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:56 AM
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
        wooden with your approach.

        The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
        one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
        entry [through its Messiah].

        Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
        not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
        Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
        That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
        "perfectly holy."

        I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
        "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
        Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

        I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

        Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
        interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
        with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
        is not all of a single genre.

        Hope this helps!

        "Dr. J"
        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
        Regent Unversity
        Moderator

        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
        Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
        Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
        all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
        exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
        literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
        methodology which does just that.
        >
        > For example:
        > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
        gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
        member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
        Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
        Israelites.
        > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
        fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
        edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
        a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
        Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
        clearly intended to be symbolic.
        >
        > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
        church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
        exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
        >
        > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
        harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
        but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
        Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
        began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
        symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
        gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
        Jewish one.
        >
        > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
        are just guessing out of our own minds.
        >
        > Yours
        > John B






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      • biblestudy
        I agree. Or even of Hebrews. John B ... From: George F Somsel To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re:
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          I agree. Or even of Hebrews.
          John B

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: George F Somsel
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM
          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


          I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites


          1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
          To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
          Greetings.

          The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

          1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
          To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
          May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

          The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

          Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying." The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.

          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.

          - Jan Hus
          _________

          ________________________________
          From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
          wooden with your approach.

          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
          entry [through its Messiah].

          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
          "perfectly holy."

          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
          is not all of a single genre.

          Hope this helps!

          "Dr. J"
          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
          Regent Unversity
          Moderator

          --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
          literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
          methodology which does just that.
          >
          > For example:
          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
          Israelites.
          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
          clearly intended to be symbolic.
          >
          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
          >
          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
          Jewish one.
          >
          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
          are just guessing out of our own minds.
          >
          > Yours
          > John B
          .

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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        • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
          What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 10, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
            nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

            J Coates



            -----Original Message-----
            From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
            Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation



            My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
            God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
            John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
            in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
            imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

            I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
            (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
            depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
            John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
            Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
            and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
            refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

            This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
            Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
            This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the
            devil."

            This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
            modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
            Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
            explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
            "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
            Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt
            23:32-36).

            The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
            from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
            Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
            15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

            I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
            (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

            I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
            It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
            Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

            Ken Gentry
            Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
            .com>
            To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
            Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

            Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
            are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
            the church? I

            Tom

            Dr. Tom Ricks

            ________________________________

            From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
            Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
            To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

            I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
            wooden with your approach.

            The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
            one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
            entry [through its Messiah].

            Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
            not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
            Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
            That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
            "perfectly holy."

            I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
            "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
            Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

            I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

            Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
            interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
            with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
            is not all of a single genre.

            Hope this helps!

            "Dr. J"
            Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
            Regent Unversity
            Moderator

            --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
            <biblestudy@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
            Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
            Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
            all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
            exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
            literal. This wou
            ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
            methodology which does just that.
            >
            > For example:
            > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
            gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
            member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
            Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
            Israelites.
            > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
            fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
            edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
            a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
            Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
            clearly intended to be symbolic.
            >
            > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
            church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
            exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
            >
            > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
            harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
            but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
            Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
            began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
            symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
            gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
            Jewish one.
            >
            > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
            are just guessing out of our own minds.
            >
            > Yours
            > John B

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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