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The harlot in Revelation

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  • KennethGentry@cs.com
    My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God s divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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      My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

      I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16 (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

      This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9. This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the devil."

      This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt 23:32-36).

      The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8), from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev 15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

      I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

      I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation. It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

      Ken Gentry
      Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation




      -----Original Message-----
      From: Tom Ricks <tom@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
      Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



      Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
      are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
      the church? I



      Tom

      Dr. Tom Ricks



      ________________________________

      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
      Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



      I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
      wooden with your approach.

      The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
      one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
      entry [through its Messiah].

      Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
      not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
      Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
      That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
      "perfectly holy."

      I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
      "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
      Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

      I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

      Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
      interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
      with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
      is not all of a single genre.

      Hope this helps!

      "Dr. J"
      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
      Regent Unversity
      Moderator

      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
      <biblestudy@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
      Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
      Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
      all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
      exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
      literal. This wou
      ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
      methodology which does just that.
      >
      > For example:
      > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
      gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
      member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
      Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
      Israelites.
      > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
      fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
      edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
      a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
      Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
      clearly intended to be symbolic.
      >
      > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
      church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
      exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
      >
      > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
      harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
      but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
      Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
      began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
      symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
      gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
      Jewish one.
      >
      > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
      are just guessing out of our own minds.
      >
      > Yours
      > John B





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Tom Ricks
      Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately I have heard way too much on the wild speculation side of the story!) Tom Dr. Tom
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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        Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately
        I have heard way too much on the "wild speculation" side of the story!)




        Tom

        Dr. Tom Ricks

        ________________________________

        From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
        Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:48 AM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



        I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
        city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

        The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
        God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
        different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
        since Revelation was penned.

        Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
        situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
        depends upon Revelation itself.

        That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
        is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
        the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
        as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

        Blessings,
        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
        Regent University
        Moderator

        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Ricks" <tom@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
        > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history
        of
        > the church? I
        >
        >
        >
        > Tom
        >
        > Dr. Tom Ricks
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        >
        > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of drjenney2
        > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
        >
        >
        >
        > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
        > wooden with your approach.
        >
        > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
        > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
        > entry [through its Messiah].
        >
        > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
        > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
        > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
        > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
        > "perfectly holy."
        >
        > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
        > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
        > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
        >
        > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
        >
        > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
        > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
        > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
        > is not all of a single genre.
        >
        > Hope this helps!
        >
        > "Dr. J"
        > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
        > Regent Unversity
        > Moderator
        >
        > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
        > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
        > <biblestudy@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
        > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
        > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
        > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
        > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
        > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
        > methodology which does just that.
        > >
        > > For example:
        > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
        > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
        > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
        > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
        > Israelites.
        > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
        > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
        > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
        > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
        > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
        > clearly intended to be symbolic.
        > >
        > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
        > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
        > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
        > >
        > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
        > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
        > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
        > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
        > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
        > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
        > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
        > Jewish one.
        > >
        > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
        > are just guessing out of our own minds.
        > >
        > > Yours
        > > John B
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • biblestudy
        Hi, I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic.
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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          Hi,
          I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic. After all Gentiles get in, don't we?
          Also I was pointing out that the idea of 144,000 is clearly symbolic, being the external dimensions of the city, i.e. the border that includes all the inhabitants.
          I don't think such interpretation is wooden at all. Simply reflects the symbols as given in the book. If we don't use the keys John gives us then we are inventing our own. And who says that we have been given the secret code?
          John B

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: drjenney2
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:56 AM
          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
          wooden with your approach.

          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
          entry [through its Messiah].

          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
          "perfectly holy."

          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
          is not all of a single genre.

          Hope this helps!

          "Dr. J"
          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
          Regent Unversity
          Moderator

          --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
          literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
          methodology which does just that.
          >
          > For example:
          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
          Israelites.
          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
          clearly intended to be symbolic.
          >
          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
          >
          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
          Jewish one.
          >
          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
          are just guessing out of our own minds.
          >
          > Yours
          > John B






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        • biblestudy
          I agree. Or even of Hebrews. John B ... From: George F Somsel To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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            I agree. Or even of Hebrews.
            John B

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: George F Somsel
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


            I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites


            1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
            To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
            Greetings.

            The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

            1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
            To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
            May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

            The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

            Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying." The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.

            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.

            - Jan Hus
            _________

            ________________________________
            From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

            I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
            wooden with your approach.

            The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
            one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
            entry [through its Messiah].

            Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
            not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
            Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
            That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
            "perfectly holy."

            I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
            "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
            Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

            I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

            Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
            interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
            with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
            is not all of a single genre.

            Hope this helps!

            "Dr. J"
            Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
            Regent Unversity
            Moderator

            --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
            Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
            Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
            all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
            exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
            literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
            methodology which does just that.
            >
            > For example:
            > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
            gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
            member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
            Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
            Israelites.
            > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
            fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
            edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
            a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
            Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
            clearly intended to be symbolic.
            >
            > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
            church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
            exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
            >
            > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
            harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
            but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
            Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
            began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
            symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
            gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
            Jewish one.
            >
            > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
            are just guessing out of our own minds.
            >
            > Yours
            > John B
            .

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



            No virus found in this incoming message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1941 - Release Date: 02/08/09 17:57:00


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • biblestudy
            I personally think the Great Whore is all the Romes of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven mountains or
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              I personally think the Great Whore is all the "Romes" of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven "mountains" or empires of Gentile history - Babel, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and will be present in the "Rome" of the "Beast".

              (Obviously I am a futurist, not an Amillennialist or Historicist. Though I ,do not deny the truth of those interpretations. I think God has writeen Revelaiotn so that ther are several "layers" of interpretation, all of which are correct and not necessarily mutually exclusive. Probably I would be best categorised as an Idealist Futurist.)
              John B

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Tom Ricks
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:24 AM
              Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


              Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
              are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
              the church? I

              Tom

              Dr. Tom Ricks

              ________________________________

              From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
              Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

              I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
              wooden with your approach.

              The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
              one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
              entry [through its Messiah].

              Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
              not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
              Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
              That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
              "perfectly holy."

              I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
              "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
              Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

              I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

              Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
              interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
              with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
              is not all of a single genre.

              Hope this helps!

              "Dr. J"
              Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
              Regent Unversity
              Moderator

              --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
              <biblestudy@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
              Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
              Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
              all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
              exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
              literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
              methodology which does just that.
              >
              > For example:
              > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
              gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
              member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
              Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
              Israelites.
              > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
              fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
              edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
              a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
              Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
              clearly intended to be symbolic.
              >
              > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
              church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
              exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
              >
              > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
              harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
              but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
              Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
              began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
              symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
              gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
              Jewish one.
              >
              > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
              are just guessing out of our own minds.
              >
              > Yours
              > John B

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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            • George F Somsel
              By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT ADDRESSING JEWS but Christians whom they were equating with Israel.  This seems to have been a common practice in the early Church.  The implication is that they Jews of the OT and the Church of the NT form one People of God.  The Church replaces the Jews so that the author of the Apocalypse can state that those who claim to be Jews, i.e. those who were physically Jews, were not the true Israel.
                 george
                gfsomsel


                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.


                - Jan Hus
                _________




                ________________________________
                From: "charles.larkin@..." <charles.larkin@...>
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 7:19:26 PM
                Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
                approach to
                Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

                One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
                all, not to Jews
                but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
                Galatians.

                The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
                each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

                As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
                existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
                although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
                Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
                Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

                The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
                larger Roman world was co-extensive
                (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
                fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
                early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
                enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

                Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
                rejecting the idea that the Galileans
                were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
                Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
                "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
                Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
                of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
                Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

                Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
                from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
                They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
                and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
                in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
                Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
                to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
                destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

                Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
                NT scholarship.

                This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
                than a quarter century ago:
                "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
                65: pp. 189-203)

                Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
                answer to this most
                fundamental question of Christian origins.

                Charles Gerard Larkin
                Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
                Saint Leo University (USA)

                On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
                George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
                >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
                >
                >  
                > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                > Greetings.
                >  
                > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
                >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                >  
                > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
                >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
                >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
                >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
                >with his blood:
                > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
                >  
                > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
                >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                >
                > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
                >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
                >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
                >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
                >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
                >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
                >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
                >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
                >form the People of God.
                >
                >
                > … search for truth, hear truth,
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
                >truth,
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                > _________
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@earthlink. net>
                > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                >
                >
                > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
                >being too
                > wooden with your approach.
                >
                > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
                >not mean that
                > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
                >provided the
                > entry [through its Messiah].
                >
                > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
                >completeness, it need
                > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
                >The New
                > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
                >was a cube.
                > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
                >it is
                > "perfectly holy."
                >
                > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
                >is Rome. It's
                > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
                >reversed: "Amore."
                > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
                >lust.
                >
                > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                >
                > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
                >much art in its
                > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
                >Both must vary
                > with the various literary genres contained in
                >Revelation, for the book
                > is not all of a single genre.
                >
                > Hope this helps!
                >
                > "Dr. J"
                > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                > Regent Unversity
                > Moderator
                >
                > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
                ><biblestudy@ ...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
                >>of "12
                > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
                >in Revelation.
                > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
                >through interpreting
                > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
                >strange
                > exegetical model that would say some references are
                >symbolic and some
                > literal. This would open the door again to the
                >Pretribulation school
                > methodology which does just that.
                >>
                >> For example:
                >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
                >>- the 12
                > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
                >one has to be a
                > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
                >the bride of
                > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
                >not just
                > Israelites.
                >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
                >>shown by the
                > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
                >thus having 12
                > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
                >stadia. Hence
                > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
                >as we find in
                > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
                >Israelites" is
                > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                >>
                >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
                >>ference to the
                > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
                >seems strange
                > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                >>
                >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
                >>admit the
                > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
                >time of Christ
                > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
                >mistake. The
                > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
                >Babylon because it
                > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
                >a typical OT
                > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
                >all the
                > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
                >system, not as
                > Jewish one.
                >>
                >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
                >>with then we
                > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                >>
                >> Yours
                >> John B
                .






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • George F Somsel
                I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.  It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.� It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power without reference to God and solely on the basis of human authority.� I think the equation of the Whore with any single world power is an error and leads to an attempt to find too much specific�"historical" reference in the work.� It certainly does not represent Jerusalem.
                  �george
                  gfsomsel


                  � search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.


                  - Jan Hus
                  _________




                  ________________________________
                  From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 9:47:58 AM
                  Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                  I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                  city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                  The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                  God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                  different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                  since Revelation was penned.

                  Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                  situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                  depends upon Revelation itself.

                  That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                  is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                  the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                  as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                  Blessings,
                  Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                  Regent University
                  Moderator

                  --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                  > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                  > the church? I
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  > Dr. Tom Ricks
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  >
                  > From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                  > [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                  > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                  > wooden with your approach.
                  >
                  > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                  > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                  > entry [through its Messiah].
                  >
                  > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                  > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                  > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                  > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                  > "perfectly holy."
                  >
                  > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                  > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                  > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                  >
                  > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                  >
                  > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                  > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                  > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                  > is not all of a single genre.
                  >
                  > Hope this helps!
                  >
                  > "Dr. J"
                  > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                  > Regent Unversity
                  > Moderator
                  >
                  > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                  > <mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com> , "biblestudy"
                  > <biblestudy@ >
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                  > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                  > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                  > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                  > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                  > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                  > methodology which does just that.
                  > >
                  > > For example:
                  > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                  > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                  > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                  > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                  > Israelites.
                  > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                  > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                  > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                  > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                  > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                  > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                  > >
                  > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                  > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                  > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                  > >
                  > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                  > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                  > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                  > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                  > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                  > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                  > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                  > Jewish one.
                  > >
                  > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                  > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                  > >
                  > > Yours
                  > > John B
                  .






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
                  What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 10, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
                    nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

                    J Coates



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
                    Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation



                    My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
                    God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
                    John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
                    in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
                    imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

                    I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
                    (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
                    depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
                    John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
                    Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
                    and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
                    refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

                    This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
                    Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
                    This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the
                    devil."

                    This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
                    modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
                    Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
                    explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
                    "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
                    Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt
                    23:32-36).

                    The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
                    from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
                    Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
                    15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

                    I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
                    (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

                    I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
                    It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
                    Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

                    Ken Gentry
                    Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
                    .com>
                    To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
                    Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                    Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                    are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                    the church? I

                    Tom

                    Dr. Tom Ricks

                    ________________________________

                    From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                    To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                    I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                    wooden with your approach.

                    The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                    one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                    entry [through its Messiah].

                    Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                    not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                    Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                    That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                    "perfectly holy."

                    I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                    "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                    Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                    I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                    Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                    interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                    with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                    is not all of a single genre.

                    Hope this helps!

                    "Dr. J"
                    Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                    Regent Unversity
                    Moderator

                    --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                    <biblestudy@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                    Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                    Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                    all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                    exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                    literal. This wou
                    ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                    methodology which does just that.
                    >
                    > For example:
                    > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                    gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                    member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                    Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                    Israelites.
                    > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                    fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                    edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                    a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                    Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                    clearly intended to be symbolic.
                    >
                    > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                    church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                    exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                    >
                    > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                    harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                    but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                    Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                    began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                    symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                    gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                    Jewish one.
                    >
                    > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                    are just guessing out of our own minds.
                    >
                    > Yours
                    > John B

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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