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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • charles.larkin@saintleo.edu
    It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric approach to Revelation in particular and the NT in general. One of the very earliest NT writings was
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 8, 2009
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      It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
      approach to
      Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

      One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
      all, not to Jews
      but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
      Galatians.

      The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
      each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

      As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
      existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
      although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
      Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
      Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

      The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
      larger Roman world was co-extensive
      (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
      fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
      early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
      enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

      Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
      rejecting the idea that the Galileans
      were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
      Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
      "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
      Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
      of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
      Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

      Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
      from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
      They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
      and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
      in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
      Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
      to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
      destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

      Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
      NT scholarship.

      This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
      than a quarter century ago:
      "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
      65: pp. 189-203)

      Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
      answer to this most
      fundamental question of Christian origins.

      Charles Gerard Larkin
      Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
      Saint Leo University (USA)






      On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
      George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
      >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
      >
      >  
      > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
      > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
      > Greetings.
      >  
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
      >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      >  
      > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
      > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
      >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
      >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
      >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
      >with his blood:
      > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
      >  
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
      >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      >
      > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
      >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
      >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
      >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
      >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
      >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
      >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
      >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
      >form the People of God.
      >
      >
      > … search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
      >truth,
      > defend the truth till death.
      >
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
      >
      >
      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
      >being too
      > wooden with your approach.
      >
      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
      >not mean that
      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
      >provided the
      > entry [through its Messiah].
      >
      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
      >completeness, it need
      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
      >The New
      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
      >was a cube.
      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
      >it is
      > "perfectly holy."
      >
      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
      >is Rome. It's
      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
      >reversed: "Amore."
      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
      >lust.
      >
      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
      >
      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
      >much art in its
      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
      >Both must vary
      > with the various literary genres contained in
      >Revelation, for the book
      > is not all of a single genre.
      >
      > Hope this helps!
      >
      > "Dr. J"
      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
      > Regent Unversity
      > Moderator
      >
      > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
      ><biblestudy@ ...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
      >>of "12
      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
      >in Revelation.
      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
      >through interpreting
      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
      >strange
      > exegetical model that would say some references are
      >symbolic and some
      > literal. This would open the door again to the
      >Pretribulation school
      > methodology which does just that.
      >>
      >> For example:
      >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
      >>- the 12
      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
      >one has to be a
      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
      >the bride of
      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
      >not just
      > Israelites.
      >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
      >>shown by the
      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
      >thus having 12
      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
      >stadia. Hence
      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
      >as we find in
      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
      >Israelites" is
      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
      >>
      >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
      >>ference to the
      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
      >seems strange
      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
      >>
      >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
      >>admit the
      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
      >time of Christ
      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
      >mistake. The
      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
      >Babylon because it
      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
      >a typical OT
      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
      >all the
      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
      >system, not as
      > Jewish one.
      >>
      >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
      >>with then we
      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
      >>
      >> Yours
      >> John B
      > .
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • drjenney2
      I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual city of Rome. Thus, the exegetical answer is Rome itself. The application answer
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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        I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
        city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

        The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
        God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
        different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
        since Revelation was penned.

        Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
        situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
        depends upon Revelation itself.

        That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
        is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
        the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
        as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

        Blessings,
        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
        Regent University
        Moderator

        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
        >
        > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
        > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
        > the church? I
        >
        >
        >
        > Tom
        >
        > Dr. Tom Ricks
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        >
        > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
        > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
        >
        >
        >
        > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
        > wooden with your approach.
        >
        > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
        > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
        > entry [through its Messiah].
        >
        > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
        > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
        > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
        > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
        > "perfectly holy."
        >
        > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
        > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
        > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
        >
        > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
        >
        > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
        > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
        > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
        > is not all of a single genre.
        >
        > Hope this helps!
        >
        > "Dr. J"
        > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
        > Regent Unversity
        > Moderator
        >
        > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
        > <biblestudy@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
        > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
        > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
        > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
        > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
        > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
        > methodology which does just that.
        > >
        > > For example:
        > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
        > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
        > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
        > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
        > Israelites.
        > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
        > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
        > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
        > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
        > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
        > clearly intended to be symbolic.
        > >
        > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
        > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
        > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
        > >
        > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
        > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
        > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
        > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
        > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
        > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
        > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
        > Jewish one.
        > >
        > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
        > are just guessing out of our own minds.
        > >
        > > Yours
        > > John B
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • KennethGentry@cs.com
        My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God s divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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          My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

          I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16 (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

          This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9. This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the devil."

          This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt 23:32-36).

          The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8), from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev 15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

          I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

          I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation. It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

          Ken Gentry
          Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation




          -----Original Message-----
          From: Tom Ricks <tom@...>
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
          Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



          Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
          are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
          the church? I



          Tom

          Dr. Tom Ricks



          ________________________________

          From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
          Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
          wooden with your approach.

          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
          entry [through its Messiah].

          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
          "perfectly holy."

          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
          is not all of a single genre.

          Hope this helps!

          "Dr. J"
          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
          Regent Unversity
          Moderator

          --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
          <biblestudy@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
          literal. This wou
          ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
          methodology which does just that.
          >
          > For example:
          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
          Israelites.
          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
          clearly intended to be symbolic.
          >
          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
          >
          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
          Jewish one.
          >
          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
          are just guessing out of our own minds.
          >
          > Yours
          > John B





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Tom Ricks
          Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately I have heard way too much on the wild speculation side of the story!) Tom Dr. Tom
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately
            I have heard way too much on the "wild speculation" side of the story!)




            Tom

            Dr. Tom Ricks

            ________________________________

            From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
            Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:48 AM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



            I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
            city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

            The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
            God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
            different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
            since Revelation was penned.

            Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
            situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
            depends upon Revelation itself.

            That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
            is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
            the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
            as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

            Blessings,
            Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
            Regent University
            Moderator

            --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Ricks" <tom@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
            > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history
            of
            > the church? I
            >
            >
            >
            > Tom
            >
            > Dr. Tom Ricks
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >
            > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of drjenney2
            > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
            > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
            >
            >
            >
            > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
            > wooden with your approach.
            >
            > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
            > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
            > entry [through its Messiah].
            >
            > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
            > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
            > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
            > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
            > "perfectly holy."
            >
            > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
            > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
            > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
            >
            > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
            >
            > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
            > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
            > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
            > is not all of a single genre.
            >
            > Hope this helps!
            >
            > "Dr. J"
            > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
            > Regent Unversity
            > Moderator
            >
            > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
            > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
            > <biblestudy@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
            > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
            > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
            > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
            > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
            > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
            > methodology which does just that.
            > >
            > > For example:
            > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
            > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
            > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
            > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
            > Israelites.
            > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
            > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
            > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
            > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
            > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
            > clearly intended to be symbolic.
            > >
            > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
            > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
            > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
            > >
            > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
            > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
            > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
            > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
            > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
            > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
            > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
            > Jewish one.
            > >
            > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
            > are just guessing out of our own minds.
            > >
            > > Yours
            > > John B
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • biblestudy
            Hi, I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic.
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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              Hi,
              I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic. After all Gentiles get in, don't we?
              Also I was pointing out that the idea of 144,000 is clearly symbolic, being the external dimensions of the city, i.e. the border that includes all the inhabitants.
              I don't think such interpretation is wooden at all. Simply reflects the symbols as given in the book. If we don't use the keys John gives us then we are inventing our own. And who says that we have been given the secret code?
              John B

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: drjenney2
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:56 AM
              Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


              I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
              wooden with your approach.

              The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
              one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
              entry [through its Messiah].

              Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
              not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
              Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
              That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
              "perfectly holy."

              I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
              "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
              Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

              I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

              Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
              interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
              with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
              is not all of a single genre.

              Hope this helps!

              "Dr. J"
              Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
              Regent Unversity
              Moderator

              --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
              Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
              Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
              all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
              exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
              literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
              methodology which does just that.
              >
              > For example:
              > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
              gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
              member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
              Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
              Israelites.
              > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
              fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
              edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
              a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
              Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
              clearly intended to be symbolic.
              >
              > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
              church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
              exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
              >
              > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
              harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
              but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
              Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
              began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
              symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
              gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
              Jewish one.
              >
              > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
              are just guessing out of our own minds.
              >
              > Yours
              > John B






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            • biblestudy
              I agree. Or even of Hebrews. John B ... From: George F Somsel To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re:
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I agree. Or even of Hebrews.
                John B

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: George F Somsel
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM
                Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites


                1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                Greetings.

                The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
                May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

                The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying." The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.

                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.

                - Jan Hus
                _________

                ________________________________
                From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                wooden with your approach.

                The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                entry [through its Messiah].

                Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                "perfectly holy."

                I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                is not all of a single genre.

                Hope this helps!

                "Dr. J"
                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                Regent Unversity
                Moderator

                --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                methodology which does just that.
                >
                > For example:
                > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                Israelites.
                > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                clearly intended to be symbolic.
                >
                > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                >
                > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                Jewish one.
                >
                > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                are just guessing out of our own minds.
                >
                > Yours
                > John B
                .

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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              • biblestudy
                I personally think the Great Whore is all the Romes of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven mountains or
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                  I personally think the Great Whore is all the "Romes" of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven "mountains" or empires of Gentile history - Babel, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and will be present in the "Rome" of the "Beast".

                  (Obviously I am a futurist, not an Amillennialist or Historicist. Though I ,do not deny the truth of those interpretations. I think God has writeen Revelaiotn so that ther are several "layers" of interpretation, all of which are correct and not necessarily mutually exclusive. Probably I would be best categorised as an Idealist Futurist.)
                  John B

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Tom Ricks
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:24 AM
                  Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                  Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                  are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                  the church? I

                  Tom

                  Dr. Tom Ricks

                  ________________________________

                  From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                  I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                  wooden with your approach.

                  The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                  one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                  entry [through its Messiah].

                  Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                  not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                  Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                  That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                  "perfectly holy."

                  I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                  "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                  Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                  I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                  Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                  interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                  with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                  is not all of a single genre.

                  Hope this helps!

                  "Dr. J"
                  Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                  Regent Unversity
                  Moderator

                  --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                  <biblestudy@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                  Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                  Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                  all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                  exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                  literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                  methodology which does just that.
                  >
                  > For example:
                  > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                  gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                  member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                  Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                  Israelites.
                  > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                  fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                  edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                  a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                  Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                  clearly intended to be symbolic.
                  >
                  > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                  church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                  exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                  >
                  > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                  harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                  but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                  Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                  began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                  symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                  gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                  Jewish one.
                  >
                  > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                  are just guessing out of our own minds.
                  >
                  > Yours
                  > John B

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                  Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1941 - Release Date: 02/08/09 17:57:00


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • George F Somsel
                  By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT ADDRESSING JEWS but Christians whom they were equating with Israel.  This seems to have been a common practice in the early Church.  The implication is that they Jews of the OT and the Church of the NT form one People of God.  The Church replaces the Jews so that the author of the Apocalypse can state that those who claim to be Jews, i.e. those who were physically Jews, were not the true Israel.
                     george
                    gfsomsel


                    … search for truth, hear truth,
                    learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    defend the truth till death.


                    - Jan Hus
                    _________




                    ________________________________
                    From: "charles.larkin@..." <charles.larkin@...>
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 7:19:26 PM
                    Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                    It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
                    approach to
                    Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

                    One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
                    all, not to Jews
                    but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
                    Galatians.

                    The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
                    each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

                    As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
                    existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
                    although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
                    Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
                    Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

                    The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
                    larger Roman world was co-extensive
                    (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
                    fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
                    early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
                    enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

                    Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
                    rejecting the idea that the Galileans
                    were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
                    Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
                    "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
                    Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
                    of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
                    Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

                    Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
                    from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
                    They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
                    and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
                    in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
                    Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
                    to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
                    destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

                    Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
                    NT scholarship.

                    This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
                    than a quarter century ago:
                    "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
                    65: pp. 189-203)

                    Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
                    answer to this most
                    fundamental question of Christian origins.

                    Charles Gerard Larkin
                    Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
                    Saint Leo University (USA)

                    On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
                    George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
                    >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
                    >
                    >  
                    > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                    > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                    > Greetings.
                    >  
                    > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
                    >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                    >  
                    > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                    > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
                    >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
                    >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
                    >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
                    >with his blood:
                    > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
                    >  
                    > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
                    >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                    >
                    > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
                    >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
                    >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
                    >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
                    >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
                    >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
                    >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
                    >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
                    >form the People of God.
                    >
                    >
                    > … search for truth, hear truth,
                    > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
                    >truth,
                    > defend the truth till death.
                    >
                    >
                    > - Jan Hus
                    > _________
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ____________ _________ _________ __
                    >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@earthlink. net>
                    > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                    > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                    >
                    >
                    > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
                    >being too
                    > wooden with your approach.
                    >
                    > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
                    >not mean that
                    > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
                    >provided the
                    > entry [through its Messiah].
                    >
                    > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
                    >completeness, it need
                    > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
                    >The New
                    > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
                    >was a cube.
                    > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
                    >it is
                    > "perfectly holy."
                    >
                    > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
                    >is Rome. It's
                    > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
                    >reversed: "Amore."
                    > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
                    >lust.
                    >
                    > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                    >
                    > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
                    >much art in its
                    > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
                    >Both must vary
                    > with the various literary genres contained in
                    >Revelation, for the book
                    > is not all of a single genre.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps!
                    >
                    > "Dr. J"
                    > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                    > Regent Unversity
                    > Moderator
                    >
                    > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
                    ><biblestudy@ ...>
                    > wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
                    >>of "12
                    > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
                    >in Revelation.
                    > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
                    >through interpreting
                    > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
                    >strange
                    > exegetical model that would say some references are
                    >symbolic and some
                    > literal. This would open the door again to the
                    >Pretribulation school
                    > methodology which does just that.
                    >>
                    >> For example:
                    >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
                    >>- the 12
                    > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
                    >one has to be a
                    > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
                    >the bride of
                    > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
                    >not just
                    > Israelites.
                    >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
                    >>shown by the
                    > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
                    >thus having 12
                    > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
                    >stadia. Hence
                    > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
                    >as we find in
                    > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
                    >Israelites" is
                    > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                    >>
                    >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
                    >>ference to the
                    > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
                    >seems strange
                    > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                    >>
                    >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
                    >>admit the
                    > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
                    >time of Christ
                    > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
                    >mistake. The
                    > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
                    >Babylon because it
                    > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
                    >a typical OT
                    > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
                    >all the
                    > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
                    >system, not as
                    > Jewish one.
                    >>
                    >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
                    >>with then we
                    > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                    >>
                    >> Yours
                    >> John B
                    .






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • George F Somsel
                    I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.  It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.� It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power without reference to God and solely on the basis of human authority.� I think the equation of the Whore with any single world power is an error and leads to an attempt to find too much specific�"historical" reference in the work.� It certainly does not represent Jerusalem.
                      �george
                      gfsomsel


                      � search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.


                      - Jan Hus
                      _________




                      ________________________________
                      From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 9:47:58 AM
                      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                      I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                      city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                      The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                      God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                      different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                      since Revelation was penned.

                      Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                      situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                      depends upon Revelation itself.

                      That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                      is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                      the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                      as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                      Blessings,
                      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                      Regent University
                      Moderator

                      --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                      > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                      > the church? I
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                      > Dr. Tom Ricks
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      >
                      > From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                      > [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                      > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                      > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                      > wooden with your approach.
                      >
                      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                      > entry [through its Messiah].
                      >
                      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                      > "perfectly holy."
                      >
                      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                      >
                      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                      >
                      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                      > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                      > is not all of a single genre.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps!
                      >
                      > "Dr. J"
                      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                      > Regent Unversity
                      > Moderator
                      >
                      > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                      > <mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com> , "biblestudy"
                      > <biblestudy@ >
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                      > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                      > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                      > methodology which does just that.
                      > >
                      > > For example:
                      > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                      > Israelites.
                      > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                      > >
                      > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                      > >
                      > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                      > Jewish one.
                      > >
                      > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                      > >
                      > > Yours
                      > > John B
                      .






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
                      What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 10, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
                        nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

                        J Coates



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
                        Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation



                        My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
                        God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
                        John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
                        in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
                        imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

                        I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
                        (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
                        depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
                        John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
                        Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
                        and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
                        refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

                        This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
                        Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
                        This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the
                        devil."

                        This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
                        modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
                        Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
                        explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
                        "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
                        Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt
                        23:32-36).

                        The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
                        from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
                        Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
                        15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

                        I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
                        (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

                        I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
                        It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
                        Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

                        Ken Gentry
                        Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
                        .com>
                        To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
                        Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                        Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                        are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                        the church? I

                        Tom

                        Dr. Tom Ricks

                        ________________________________

                        From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                        Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                        To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                        wooden with your approach.

                        The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                        one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                        entry [through its Messiah].

                        Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                        not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                        Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                        That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                        "perfectly holy."

                        I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                        "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                        Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                        I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                        Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                        interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                        with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                        is not all of a single genre.

                        Hope this helps!

                        "Dr. J"
                        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                        Regent Unversity
                        Moderator

                        --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com
                        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                        <biblestudy@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                        Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                        Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                        all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                        exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                        literal. This wou
                        ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                        methodology which does just that.
                        >
                        > For example:
                        > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                        gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                        member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                        Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                        Israelites.
                        > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                        fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                        edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                        a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                        Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                        clearly intended to be symbolic.
                        >
                        > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                        church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                        exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                        >
                        > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                        harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                        but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                        Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                        began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                        symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                        gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                        Jewish one.
                        >
                        > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                        are just guessing out of our own minds.
                        >
                        > Yours
                        > John B

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