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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • charles.larkin@saintleo.edu
    It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric approach to Revelation in particular and the NT in general. One of the very earliest NT writings was
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 8, 2009
      It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
      approach to
      Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

      One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
      all, not to Jews
      but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
      Galatians.

      The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
      each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

      As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
      existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
      although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
      Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
      Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

      The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
      larger Roman world was co-extensive
      (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
      fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
      early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
      enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

      Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
      rejecting the idea that the Galileans
      were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
      Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
      "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
      Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
      of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
      Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

      Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
      from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
      They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
      and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
      in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
      Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
      to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
      destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

      Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
      NT scholarship.

      This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
      than a quarter century ago:
      "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
      65: pp. 189-203)

      Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
      answer to this most
      fundamental question of Christian origins.

      Charles Gerard Larkin
      Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
      Saint Leo University (USA)






      On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
      George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
      >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
      >
      >  
      > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
      > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
      > Greetings.
      >  
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
      >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      >  
      > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
      > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
      >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
      >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
      >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
      >with his blood:
      > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
      >  
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
      >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      >
      > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
      >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
      >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
      >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
      >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
      >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
      >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
      >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
      >form the People of God.
      >
      >
      > … search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
      >truth,
      > defend the truth till death.
      >
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
      >
      >
      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
      >being too
      > wooden with your approach.
      >
      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
      >not mean that
      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
      >provided the
      > entry [through its Messiah].
      >
      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
      >completeness, it need
      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
      >The New
      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
      >was a cube.
      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
      >it is
      > "perfectly holy."
      >
      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
      >is Rome. It's
      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
      >reversed: "Amore."
      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
      >lust.
      >
      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
      >
      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
      >much art in its
      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
      >Both must vary
      > with the various literary genres contained in
      >Revelation, for the book
      > is not all of a single genre.
      >
      > Hope this helps!
      >
      > "Dr. J"
      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
      > Regent Unversity
      > Moderator
      >
      > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
      ><biblestudy@ ...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
      >>of "12
      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
      >in Revelation.
      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
      >through interpreting
      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
      >strange
      > exegetical model that would say some references are
      >symbolic and some
      > literal. This would open the door again to the
      >Pretribulation school
      > methodology which does just that.
      >>
      >> For example:
      >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
      >>- the 12
      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
      >one has to be a
      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
      >the bride of
      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
      >not just
      > Israelites.
      >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
      >>shown by the
      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
      >thus having 12
      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
      >stadia. Hence
      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
      >as we find in
      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
      >Israelites" is
      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
      >>
      >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
      >>ference to the
      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
      >seems strange
      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
      >>
      >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
      >>admit the
      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
      >time of Christ
      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
      >mistake. The
      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
      >Babylon because it
      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
      >a typical OT
      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
      >all the
      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
      >system, not as
      > Jewish one.
      >>
      >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
      >>with then we
      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
      >>
      >> Yours
      >> John B
      > .
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Tom Ricks
      Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or are you saying that it symbolizes all Romes throughout the history of the church? I
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
        Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
        are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
        the church? I



        Tom

        Dr. Tom Ricks



        ________________________________

        From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
        Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
        wooden with your approach.

        The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
        one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
        entry [through its Messiah].

        Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
        not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
        Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
        That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
        "perfectly holy."

        I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
        "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
        Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

        I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

        Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
        interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
        with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
        is not all of a single genre.

        Hope this helps!

        "Dr. J"
        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
        Regent Unversity
        Moderator

        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
        <biblestudy@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
        Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
        Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
        all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
        exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
        literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
        methodology which does just that.
        >
        > For example:
        > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
        gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
        member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
        Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
        Israelites.
        > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
        fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
        edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
        a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
        Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
        clearly intended to be symbolic.
        >
        > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
        church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
        exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
        >
        > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
        harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
        but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
        Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
        began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
        symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
        gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
        Jewish one.
        >
        > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
        are just guessing out of our own minds.
        >
        > Yours
        > John B





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • drjenney2
        I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual city of Rome. Thus, the exegetical answer is Rome itself. The application answer
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
          I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
          city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

          The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
          God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
          different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
          since Revelation was penned.

          Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
          situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
          depends upon Revelation itself.

          That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
          is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
          the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
          as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

          Blessings,
          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
          Regent University
          Moderator

          --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
          >
          > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
          > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
          > the church? I
          >
          >
          >
          > Tom
          >
          > Dr. Tom Ricks
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          >
          > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
          > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
          > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
          >
          >
          >
          > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
          > wooden with your approach.
          >
          > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
          > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
          > entry [through its Messiah].
          >
          > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
          > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
          > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
          > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
          > "perfectly holy."
          >
          > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
          > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
          > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
          >
          > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
          >
          > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
          > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
          > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
          > is not all of a single genre.
          >
          > Hope this helps!
          >
          > "Dr. J"
          > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
          > Regent Unversity
          > Moderator
          >
          > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
          > <biblestudy@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
          > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
          > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
          > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
          > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
          > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
          > methodology which does just that.
          > >
          > > For example:
          > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
          > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
          > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
          > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
          > Israelites.
          > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
          > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
          > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
          > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
          > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
          > clearly intended to be symbolic.
          > >
          > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
          > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
          > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
          > >
          > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
          > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
          > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
          > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
          > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
          > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
          > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
          > Jewish one.
          > >
          > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
          > are just guessing out of our own minds.
          > >
          > > Yours
          > > John B
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • KennethGentry@cs.com
          My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God s divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
            My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

            I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16 (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

            This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9. This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the devil."

            This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt 23:32-36).

            The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8), from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev 15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

            I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

            I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation. It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

            Ken Gentry
            Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation




            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tom Ricks <tom@...>
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
            Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



            Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
            are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
            the church? I



            Tom

            Dr. Tom Ricks



            ________________________________

            From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
            Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



            I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
            wooden with your approach.

            The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
            one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
            entry [through its Messiah].

            Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
            not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
            Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
            That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
            "perfectly holy."

            I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
            "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
            Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

            I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

            Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
            interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
            with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
            is not all of a single genre.

            Hope this helps!

            "Dr. J"
            Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
            Regent Unversity
            Moderator

            --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
            <biblestudy@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
            Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
            Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
            all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
            exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
            literal. This wou
            ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
            methodology which does just that.
            >
            > For example:
            > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
            gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
            member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
            Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
            Israelites.
            > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
            fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
            edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
            a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
            Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
            clearly intended to be symbolic.
            >
            > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
            church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
            exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
            >
            > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
            harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
            but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
            Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
            began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
            symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
            gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
            Jewish one.
            >
            > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
            are just guessing out of our own minds.
            >
            > Yours
            > John B





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Tom Ricks
            Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately I have heard way too much on the wild speculation side of the story!) Tom Dr. Tom
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
              Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately
              I have heard way too much on the "wild speculation" side of the story!)




              Tom

              Dr. Tom Ricks

              ________________________________

              From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
              Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:48 AM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



              I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
              city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

              The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
              God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
              different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
              since Revelation was penned.

              Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
              situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
              depends upon Revelation itself.

              That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
              is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
              the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
              as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

              Blessings,
              Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
              Regent University
              Moderator

              --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Ricks" <tom@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
              > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history
              of
              > the church? I
              >
              >
              >
              > Tom
              >
              > Dr. Tom Ricks
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              >
              > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of drjenney2
              > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
              > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
              >
              >
              >
              > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
              > wooden with your approach.
              >
              > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
              > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
              > entry [through its Messiah].
              >
              > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
              > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
              > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
              > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
              > "perfectly holy."
              >
              > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
              > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
              > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
              >
              > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
              >
              > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
              > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
              > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
              > is not all of a single genre.
              >
              > Hope this helps!
              >
              > "Dr. J"
              > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
              > Regent Unversity
              > Moderator
              >
              > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
              > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
              > <biblestudy@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
              > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
              > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
              > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
              > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
              > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
              > methodology which does just that.
              > >
              > > For example:
              > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
              > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
              > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
              > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
              > Israelites.
              > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
              > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
              > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
              > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
              > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
              > clearly intended to be symbolic.
              > >
              > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
              > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
              > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
              > >
              > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
              > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
              > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
              > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
              > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
              > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
              > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
              > Jewish one.
              > >
              > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
              > are just guessing out of our own minds.
              > >
              > > Yours
              > > John B
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • biblestudy
              Hi, I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic.
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                Hi,
                I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic. After all Gentiles get in, don't we?
                Also I was pointing out that the idea of 144,000 is clearly symbolic, being the external dimensions of the city, i.e. the border that includes all the inhabitants.
                I don't think such interpretation is wooden at all. Simply reflects the symbols as given in the book. If we don't use the keys John gives us then we are inventing our own. And who says that we have been given the secret code?
                John B

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: drjenney2
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:56 AM
                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                wooden with your approach.

                The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                entry [through its Messiah].

                Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                "perfectly holy."

                I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                is not all of a single genre.

                Hope this helps!

                "Dr. J"
                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                Regent Unversity
                Moderator

                --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                methodology which does just that.
                >
                > For example:
                > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                Israelites.
                > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                clearly intended to be symbolic.
                >
                > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                >
                > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                Jewish one.
                >
                > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                are just guessing out of our own minds.
                >
                > Yours
                > John B






                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1941 - Release Date: 02/08/09 17:57:00


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • biblestudy
                I agree. Or even of Hebrews. John B ... From: George F Somsel To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                  I agree. Or even of Hebrews.
                  John B

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: George F Somsel
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM
                  Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                  I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites


                  1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                  To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                  Greetings.

                  The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                  1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                  To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
                  May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

                  The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                  Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying." The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.

                  … search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________

                  ________________________________
                  From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                  Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                  I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                  wooden with your approach.

                  The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                  one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                  entry [through its Messiah].

                  Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                  not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                  Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                  That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                  "perfectly holy."

                  I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                  "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                  Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                  I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                  Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                  interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                  with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                  is not all of a single genre.

                  Hope this helps!

                  "Dr. J"
                  Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                  Regent Unversity
                  Moderator

                  --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                  Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                  Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                  all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                  exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                  literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                  methodology which does just that.
                  >
                  > For example:
                  > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                  gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                  member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                  Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                  Israelites.
                  > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                  fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                  edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                  a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                  Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                  clearly intended to be symbolic.
                  >
                  > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                  church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                  exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                  >
                  > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                  harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                  but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                  Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                  began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                  symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                  gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                  Jewish one.
                  >
                  > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                  are just guessing out of our own minds.
                  >
                  > Yours
                  > John B
                  .

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1941 - Release Date: 02/08/09 17:57:00


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • biblestudy
                  I personally think the Great Whore is all the Romes of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven mountains or
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                    I personally think the Great Whore is all the "Romes" of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven "mountains" or empires of Gentile history - Babel, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and will be present in the "Rome" of the "Beast".

                    (Obviously I am a futurist, not an Amillennialist or Historicist. Though I ,do not deny the truth of those interpretations. I think God has writeen Revelaiotn so that ther are several "layers" of interpretation, all of which are correct and not necessarily mutually exclusive. Probably I would be best categorised as an Idealist Futurist.)
                    John B

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Tom Ricks
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:24 AM
                    Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                    Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                    are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                    the church? I

                    Tom

                    Dr. Tom Ricks

                    ________________________________

                    From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                    I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                    wooden with your approach.

                    The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                    one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                    entry [through its Messiah].

                    Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                    not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                    Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                    That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                    "perfectly holy."

                    I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                    "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                    Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                    I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                    Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                    interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                    with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                    is not all of a single genre.

                    Hope this helps!

                    "Dr. J"
                    Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                    Regent Unversity
                    Moderator

                    --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                    <biblestudy@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                    Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                    Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                    all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                    exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                    literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                    methodology which does just that.
                    >
                    > For example:
                    > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                    gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                    member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                    Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                    Israelites.
                    > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                    fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                    edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                    a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                    Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                    clearly intended to be symbolic.
                    >
                    > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                    church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                    exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                    >
                    > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                    harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                    but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                    Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                    began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                    symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                    gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                    Jewish one.
                    >
                    > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                    are just guessing out of our own minds.
                    >
                    > Yours
                    > John B

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1941 - Release Date: 02/08/09 17:57:00


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • George F Somsel
                    By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                      By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT ADDRESSING JEWS but Christians whom they were equating with Israel.  This seems to have been a common practice in the early Church.  The implication is that they Jews of the OT and the Church of the NT form one People of God.  The Church replaces the Jews so that the author of the Apocalypse can state that those who claim to be Jews, i.e. those who were physically Jews, were not the true Israel.
                       george
                      gfsomsel


                      … search for truth, hear truth,
                      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      defend the truth till death.


                      - Jan Hus
                      _________




                      ________________________________
                      From: "charles.larkin@..." <charles.larkin@...>
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 7:19:26 PM
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                      It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
                      approach to
                      Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

                      One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
                      all, not to Jews
                      but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
                      Galatians.

                      The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
                      each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

                      As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
                      existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
                      although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
                      Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
                      Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

                      The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
                      larger Roman world was co-extensive
                      (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
                      fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
                      early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
                      enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

                      Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
                      rejecting the idea that the Galileans
                      were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
                      Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
                      "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
                      Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
                      of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
                      Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

                      Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
                      from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
                      They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
                      and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
                      in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
                      Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
                      to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
                      destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

                      Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
                      NT scholarship.

                      This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
                      than a quarter century ago:
                      "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
                      65: pp. 189-203)

                      Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
                      answer to this most
                      fundamental question of Christian origins.

                      Charles Gerard Larkin
                      Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
                      Saint Leo University (USA)

                      On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
                      George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
                      >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
                      >
                      >  
                      > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                      > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                      > Greetings.
                      >  
                      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
                      >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                      >  
                      > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                      > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
                      >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
                      >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
                      >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
                      >with his blood:
                      > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
                      >  
                      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
                      >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                      >
                      > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
                      >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
                      >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
                      >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
                      >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
                      >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
                      >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
                      >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
                      >form the People of God.
                      >
                      >
                      > … search for truth, hear truth,
                      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
                      >truth,
                      > defend the truth till death.
                      >
                      >
                      > - Jan Hus
                      > _________
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@earthlink. net>
                      > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                      > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                      >
                      >
                      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
                      >being too
                      > wooden with your approach.
                      >
                      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
                      >not mean that
                      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
                      >provided the
                      > entry [through its Messiah].
                      >
                      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
                      >completeness, it need
                      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
                      >The New
                      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
                      >was a cube.
                      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
                      >it is
                      > "perfectly holy."
                      >
                      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
                      >is Rome. It's
                      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
                      >reversed: "Amore."
                      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
                      >lust.
                      >
                      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                      >
                      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
                      >much art in its
                      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
                      >Both must vary
                      > with the various literary genres contained in
                      >Revelation, for the book
                      > is not all of a single genre.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps!
                      >
                      > "Dr. J"
                      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                      > Regent Unversity
                      > Moderator
                      >
                      > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
                      ><biblestudy@ ...>
                      > wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
                      >>of "12
                      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
                      >in Revelation.
                      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
                      >through interpreting
                      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
                      >strange
                      > exegetical model that would say some references are
                      >symbolic and some
                      > literal. This would open the door again to the
                      >Pretribulation school
                      > methodology which does just that.
                      >>
                      >> For example:
                      >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
                      >>- the 12
                      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
                      >one has to be a
                      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
                      >the bride of
                      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
                      >not just
                      > Israelites.
                      >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
                      >>shown by the
                      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
                      >thus having 12
                      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
                      >stadia. Hence
                      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
                      >as we find in
                      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
                      >Israelites" is
                      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                      >>
                      >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
                      >>ference to the
                      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
                      >seems strange
                      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                      >>
                      >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
                      >>admit the
                      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
                      >time of Christ
                      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
                      >mistake. The
                      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
                      >Babylon because it
                      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
                      >a typical OT
                      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
                      >all the
                      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
                      >system, not as
                      > Jewish one.
                      >>
                      >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
                      >>with then we
                      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                      >>
                      >> Yours
                      >> John B
                      .






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • George F Somsel
                      I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.  It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
                        I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.� It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power without reference to God and solely on the basis of human authority.� I think the equation of the Whore with any single world power is an error and leads to an attempt to find too much specific�"historical" reference in the work.� It certainly does not represent Jerusalem.
                        �george
                        gfsomsel


                        � search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.


                        - Jan Hus
                        _________




                        ________________________________
                        From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 9:47:58 AM
                        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                        I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                        city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                        The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                        God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                        different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                        since Revelation was penned.

                        Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                        situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                        depends upon Revelation itself.

                        That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                        is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                        the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                        as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                        Blessings,
                        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                        Regent University
                        Moderator

                        --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                        > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                        > the church? I
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Tom
                        >
                        > Dr. Tom Ricks
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        >
                        > From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                        > [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                        > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                        > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                        > wooden with your approach.
                        >
                        > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                        > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                        > entry [through its Messiah].
                        >
                        > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                        > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                        > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                        > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                        > "perfectly holy."
                        >
                        > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                        > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                        > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                        >
                        > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                        >
                        > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                        > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                        > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                        > is not all of a single genre.
                        >
                        > Hope this helps!
                        >
                        > "Dr. J"
                        > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                        > Regent Unversity
                        > Moderator
                        >
                        > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                        > <mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com> , "biblestudy"
                        > <biblestudy@ >
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                        > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                        > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                        > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                        > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                        > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                        > methodology which does just that.
                        > >
                        > > For example:
                        > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                        > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                        > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                        > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                        > Israelites.
                        > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                        > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                        > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                        > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                        > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                        > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                        > >
                        > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                        > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                        > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                        > >
                        > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                        > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                        > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                        > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                        > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                        > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                        > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                        > Jewish one.
                        > >
                        > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                        > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                        > >
                        > > Yours
                        > > John B
                        .






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
                        What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 10, 2009
                          What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
                          nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

                          J Coates



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
                          Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation



                          My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
                          God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
                          John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
                          in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
                          imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

                          I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
                          (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
                          depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
                          John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
                          Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
                          and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
                          refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

                          This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
                          Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
                          This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the
                          devil."

                          This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
                          modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
                          Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
                          explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
                          "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
                          Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt
                          23:32-36).

                          The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
                          from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
                          Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
                          15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

                          I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
                          (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

                          I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
                          It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
                          Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

                          Ken Gentry
                          Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
                          .com>
                          To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
                          Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                          Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                          are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                          the church? I

                          Tom

                          Dr. Tom Ricks

                          ________________________________

                          From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                          Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                          To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                          wooden with your approach.

                          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                          entry [through its Messiah].

                          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                          "perfectly holy."

                          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                          is not all of a single genre.

                          Hope this helps!

                          "Dr. J"
                          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                          Regent Unversity
                          Moderator

                          --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com
                          <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                          <biblestudy@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                          literal. This wou
                          ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                          methodology which does just that.
                          >
                          > For example:
                          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                          Israelites.
                          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                          clearly intended to be symbolic.
                          >
                          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                          >
                          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                          Jewish one.
                          >
                          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                          are just guessing out of our own minds.
                          >
                          > Yours
                          > John B

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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