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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • biblestudy
    Can t see it myself. It is clear that Israel , the idea of 12 Tribes temple Jerusalem are all symbolic in places in Revelation. Exegetical integrity
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 8, 2009
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      Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12 Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation. Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school methodology which does just that.

      For example:
      12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12 gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just Israelites.
      That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12 edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is clearly intended to be symbolic.

      Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.

      As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as Jewish one.

      If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we are just guessing out of our own minds.

      Yours
      John B


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: jonknewton
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:52 PM
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


      I think your approach has a lot of strengths, though it doesn't
      explain everything about Revelation (but which one approach ever can?)

      However, it is susceptible to being used to support anti-semitism. How
      do you suggest this be avoided?

      Do you see features in the text that would guard against this?
      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, KennethGentry@... wrote:
      >
      > IÂ have noticed something which is distinctive to my
      redemptive-historical preterism and which brings out a strong
      relationship between chs 2-3 and the rest of Revelation. In the seven
      letters we have two important references: Rev 2:9 and 3:9. Both
      denounce the Jews, calling the Jewish synagogue a "synagogue of Satan"
      (cp. Jn 8:44). These tie in with Revelation's theme and flow.
      > Â
      >
      > I see Revelation as paralleling in sentiment the Epistle to the
      Hebrews. Both show the passing away of the old covenant order (cp. Heb
      8:13; 12:25-29) and the coming of Christianity as the New Jerusalem
      (Heb 12:23), with the first century Christians under persecution (Heb.
      10:32-33). Both are concerned with potential apostasy under this pressure.
      >
      > Â
      >
      > I hold that John establishes the overall theme of Revelation in Rev.
      1:7. That theme regards Christ's judgment-coming against the "tribes
      of the Land" (the Jews) for crucifying Christ (Mt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mk
      14:64; Lk 23:22-23; 24:20; Lk 24:20; Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15a; 4:10;
      5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-29; Ac 26:10; 1 Thess. 2:14-15). This
      coming of Christ is a metaphorical coming, a providential historical
      judgment (as in Isa 19:1). This theme verse (uniquely) parallels Matt
      24:30, which is in Christ's discourse on the AD 70 destruction of the
      Temple (Matt. 24:1-2, 16). Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 are speaking of the
      same historical event: AD 70.
      >
      > Â
      >
      > The "Land dwellers" (aka "earth dwellers") are the non-Christian
      Jews who live in the Land. As Revelation unfolds, those sl
      > ain "in the Land" are the Jewish Christians in Israel (e.g.
      6:10-11). The sea beast (Rome/Nero) is locked in a relationship with
      the land beast (the Jewish high priestly aristocracy) against the
      Christians (cp. Jn 19:12, 15; cp. Mt 27:25). And behind them both is
      Satan (remember: Rev 2:9; 3:9 at this point).
      >
      > Â
      >
      > The NT is filled with references to Israelâ?Ts persecution of
      Christians: Mt 10:17; Mt 23:37ff.; Ac 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33,
      40; 6:12-15; 7:54-60; 8:1; 9:1-4, 13, 21, 23, 29; 12:1-3; 13:45-50;
      14:2-5, 19; 17:5-8, 13; 18:6, 12, 17; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27-32;Â
      22:3-5, 22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:5-9, 27; 25:2-15; 25:24; 26:21;
      28:17-29; Ro 15:31; 2Co 11:24; Gal 6:12 Heb 10:33-34. Note also (for
      one extra-biblical example): Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. 3:5:2): â?oFor the
      Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime
      against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against
      his apostles.�
      >
      > Â
      >
      > The harlot is Jerusalem (cp. Jer 3). She sits upon the sea beast
      (17:3), showing her relationship with Rome against the Christians
      (e.g., Acts 9:1-2; cp. Gal 4:24-26). She is drunk with the blood of
      the Jewish Christian saints (Rev 17:6; cp. Matt 23:32-37).
      >
      > Â
      >
      > As the harlot and false prophet are destroyed in the latter
      chapters, the new Jerusalem (Christianity) comes down out of heaven
      (cp. Gal 4:24-26; Heb. 12:23) to forever replace her as God's wife.
      >
      > Â
      >
      > Thus, John is putting on the mantle of an OT prophet in denouncing
      corrupt Israel (cp. Isa
      > 1; Jer 3; etc.). And consequently, the statements in Rev 2:9 and 3:9
      (there are others in those letters that also confirm this approach)
      link with the theme of Revelation and its flow and development.
      >
      > Â
      >
      > Obviously this approach will raise a lot of questions (objections).
      I am currently working on a commentary that should be about 1000
      pages: The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Commentary on
      Revelation.
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken Gentry
      > Â
      >
      > Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
      >
      > Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
      > __________________________________________________________
      > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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    • drjenney2
      I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too wooden with your approach. The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 8, 2009
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        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
        wooden with your approach.

        The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
        one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
        entry [through its Messiah].

        Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
        not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
        Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
        That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
        "perfectly holy."

        I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
        "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
        Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

        I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

        Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
        interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
        with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
        is not all of a single genre.

        Hope this helps!

        "Dr. J"
        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
        Regent Unversity
        Moderator



        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
        Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
        Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
        all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
        exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
        literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
        methodology which does just that.
        >
        > For example:
        > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
        gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
        member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
        Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
        Israelites.
        > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
        fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
        edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
        a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
        Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
        clearly intended to be symbolic.
        >
        > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
        church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
        exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
        >
        > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
        harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
        but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
        Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
        began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
        symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
        gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
        Jewish one.
        >
        > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
        are just guessing out of our own minds.
        >
        > Yours
        > John B
      • George F Somsel
        I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites   1James, a servant of God and of the Lord
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 8, 2009
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          I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites

           
          1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
          To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
          Greetings.
           
          The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
           
          1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
          To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
          May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
           
          The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

          Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________




          ________________________________
          From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
          wooden with your approach.

          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
          entry [through its Messiah].

          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
          "perfectly holy."

          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
          is not all of a single genre.

          Hope this helps!

          "Dr. J"
          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
          Regent Unversity
          Moderator

          --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
          literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
          methodology which does just that.
          >
          > For example:
          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
          Israelites.
          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
          clearly intended to be symbolic.
          >
          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
          >
          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
          Jewish one.
          >
          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
          are just guessing out of our own minds.
          >
          > Yours
          > John B
          .






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • charles.larkin@saintleo.edu
          It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric approach to Revelation in particular and the NT in general. One of the very earliest NT writings was
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 8, 2009
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            It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
            approach to
            Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

            One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
            all, not to Jews
            but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
            Galatians.

            The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
            each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

            As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
            existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
            although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
            Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
            Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

            The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
            larger Roman world was co-extensive
            (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
            fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
            early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
            enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

            Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
            rejecting the idea that the Galileans
            were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
            Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
            "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
            Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
            of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
            Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

            Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
            from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
            They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
            and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
            in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
            Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
            to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
            destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

            Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
            NT scholarship.

            This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
            than a quarter century ago:
            "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
            65: pp. 189-203)

            Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
            answer to this most
            fundamental question of Christian origins.

            Charles Gerard Larkin
            Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
            Saint Leo University (USA)






            On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
            George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
            > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
            >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
            >
            >  
            > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
            > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
            > Greetings.
            >  
            > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
            >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
            >  
            > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
            > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
            >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
            >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
            >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
            >with his blood:
            > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
            >  
            > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
            >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
            >
            > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
            >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
            >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
            >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
            >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
            >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
            >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
            >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
            >form the People of God.
            >
            >
            > … search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
            >truth,
            > defend the truth till death.
            >
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
            > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
            > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
            >
            >
            > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
            >being too
            > wooden with your approach.
            >
            > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
            >not mean that
            > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
            >provided the
            > entry [through its Messiah].
            >
            > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
            >completeness, it need
            > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
            >The New
            > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
            >was a cube.
            > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
            >it is
            > "perfectly holy."
            >
            > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
            >is Rome. It's
            > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
            >reversed: "Amore."
            > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
            >lust.
            >
            > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
            >
            > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
            >much art in its
            > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
            >Both must vary
            > with the various literary genres contained in
            >Revelation, for the book
            > is not all of a single genre.
            >
            > Hope this helps!
            >
            > "Dr. J"
            > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
            > Regent Unversity
            > Moderator
            >
            > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
            ><biblestudy@ ...>
            > wrote:
            >>
            >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
            >>of "12
            > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
            >in Revelation.
            > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
            >through interpreting
            > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
            >strange
            > exegetical model that would say some references are
            >symbolic and some
            > literal. This would open the door again to the
            >Pretribulation school
            > methodology which does just that.
            >>
            >> For example:
            >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
            >>- the 12
            > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
            >one has to be a
            > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
            >the bride of
            > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
            >not just
            > Israelites.
            >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
            >>shown by the
            > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
            >thus having 12
            > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
            >stadia. Hence
            > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
            >as we find in
            > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
            >Israelites" is
            > clearly intended to be symbolic.
            >>
            >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
            >>ference to the
            > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
            >seems strange
            > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
            >>
            >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
            >>admit the
            > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
            >time of Christ
            > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
            >mistake. The
            > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
            >Babylon because it
            > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
            >a typical OT
            > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
            >all the
            > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
            >system, not as
            > Jewish one.
            >>
            >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
            >>with then we
            > are just guessing out of our own minds.
            >>
            >> Yours
            >> John B
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Tom Ricks
            Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or are you saying that it symbolizes all Romes throughout the history of the church? I
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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              Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
              are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
              the church? I



              Tom

              Dr. Tom Ricks



              ________________________________

              From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
              Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



              I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
              wooden with your approach.

              The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
              one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
              entry [through its Messiah].

              Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
              not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
              Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
              That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
              "perfectly holy."

              I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
              "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
              Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

              I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

              Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
              interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
              with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
              is not all of a single genre.

              Hope this helps!

              "Dr. J"
              Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
              Regent Unversity
              Moderator

              --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
              <biblestudy@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
              Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
              Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
              all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
              exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
              literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
              methodology which does just that.
              >
              > For example:
              > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
              gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
              member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
              Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
              Israelites.
              > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
              fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
              edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
              a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
              Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
              clearly intended to be symbolic.
              >
              > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
              church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
              exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
              >
              > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
              harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
              but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
              Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
              began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
              symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
              gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
              Jewish one.
              >
              > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
              are just guessing out of our own minds.
              >
              > Yours
              > John B





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • drjenney2
              I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual city of Rome. Thus, the exegetical answer is Rome itself. The application answer
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                since Revelation was penned.

                Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                depends upon Revelation itself.

                That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                Blessings,
                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                Regent University
                Moderator

                --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
                >
                > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                > the church? I
                >
                >
                >
                > Tom
                >
                > Dr. Tom Ricks
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                >
                > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                >
                >
                >
                > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                > wooden with your approach.
                >
                > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                > entry [through its Messiah].
                >
                > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                > "perfectly holy."
                >
                > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                >
                > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                >
                > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                > is not all of a single genre.
                >
                > Hope this helps!
                >
                > "Dr. J"
                > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                > Regent Unversity
                > Moderator
                >
                > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                > <biblestudy@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                > methodology which does just that.
                > >
                > > For example:
                > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                > Israelites.
                > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                > >
                > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                > >
                > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                > Jewish one.
                > >
                > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                > >
                > > Yours
                > > John B
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • KennethGentry@cs.com
                My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God s divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                  My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

                  I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16 (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

                  This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9. This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the devil."

                  This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt 23:32-36).

                  The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8), from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev 15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

                  I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

                  I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation. It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

                  Ken Gentry
                  Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation




                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tom Ricks <tom@...>
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
                  Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



                  Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                  are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                  the church? I



                  Tom

                  Dr. Tom Ricks



                  ________________________________

                  From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



                  I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                  wooden with your approach.

                  The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                  one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                  entry [through its Messiah].

                  Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                  not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                  Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                  That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                  "perfectly holy."

                  I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                  "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                  Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                  I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                  Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                  interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                  with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                  is not all of a single genre.

                  Hope this helps!

                  "Dr. J"
                  Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                  Regent Unversity
                  Moderator

                  --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                  <biblestudy@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                  Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                  Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                  all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                  exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                  literal. This wou
                  ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                  methodology which does just that.
                  >
                  > For example:
                  > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                  gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                  member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                  Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                  Israelites.
                  > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                  fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                  edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                  a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                  Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                  clearly intended to be symbolic.
                  >
                  > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                  church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                  exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                  >
                  > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                  harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                  but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                  Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                  began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                  symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                  gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                  Jewish one.
                  >
                  > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                  are just guessing out of our own minds.
                  >
                  > Yours
                  > John B





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tom Ricks
                  Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately I have heard way too much on the wild speculation side of the story!) Tom Dr. Tom
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                    Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately
                    I have heard way too much on the "wild speculation" side of the story!)




                    Tom

                    Dr. Tom Ricks

                    ________________________________

                    From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                    Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:48 AM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



                    I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                    city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                    The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                    God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                    different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                    since Revelation was penned.

                    Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                    situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                    depends upon Revelation itself.

                    That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                    is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                    the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                    as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                    Blessings,
                    Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                    Regent University
                    Moderator

                    --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Ricks" <tom@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                    > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history
                    of
                    > the church? I
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >
                    > Dr. Tom Ricks
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                    > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                    > wooden with your approach.
                    >
                    > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                    > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                    > entry [through its Messiah].
                    >
                    > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                    > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                    > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                    > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                    > "perfectly holy."
                    >
                    > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                    > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                    > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                    >
                    > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                    >
                    > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                    > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                    > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                    > is not all of a single genre.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps!
                    >
                    > "Dr. J"
                    > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                    > Regent Unversity
                    > Moderator
                    >
                    > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                    > <biblestudy@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                    > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                    > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                    > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                    > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                    > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                    > methodology which does just that.
                    > >
                    > > For example:
                    > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                    > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                    > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                    > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                    > Israelites.
                    > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                    > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                    > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                    > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                    > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                    > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                    > >
                    > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                    > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                    > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                    > >
                    > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                    > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                    > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                    > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                    > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                    > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                    > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                    > Jewish one.
                    > >
                    > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                    > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                    > >
                    > > Yours
                    > > John B
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • biblestudy
                    Hi, I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                      Hi,
                      I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic. After all Gentiles get in, don't we?
                      Also I was pointing out that the idea of 144,000 is clearly symbolic, being the external dimensions of the city, i.e. the border that includes all the inhabitants.
                      I don't think such interpretation is wooden at all. Simply reflects the symbols as given in the book. If we don't use the keys John gives us then we are inventing our own. And who says that we have been given the secret code?
                      John B

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: drjenney2
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:56 AM
                      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                      I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                      wooden with your approach.

                      The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                      one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                      entry [through its Messiah].

                      Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                      not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                      Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                      That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                      "perfectly holy."

                      I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                      "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                      Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                      I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                      Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                      interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                      with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                      is not all of a single genre.

                      Hope this helps!

                      "Dr. J"
                      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                      Regent Unversity
                      Moderator

                      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                      Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                      Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                      all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                      exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                      literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                      methodology which does just that.
                      >
                      > For example:
                      > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                      gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                      member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                      Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                      Israelites.
                      > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                      fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                      edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                      a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                      Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                      clearly intended to be symbolic.
                      >
                      > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                      church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                      exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                      >
                      > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                      harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                      but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                      Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                      began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                      symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                      gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                      Jewish one.
                      >
                      > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                      are just guessing out of our own minds.
                      >
                      > Yours
                      > John B






                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • biblestudy
                      I agree. Or even of Hebrews. John B ... From: George F Somsel To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re:
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                        I agree. Or even of Hebrews.
                        John B

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: George F Somsel
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM
                        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                        I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites


                        1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                        To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                        Greetings.

                        The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                        1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                        To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
                        May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

                        The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                        Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying." The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.

                        … search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.

                        - Jan Hus
                        _________

                        ________________________________
                        From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                        wooden with your approach.

                        The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                        one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                        entry [through its Messiah].

                        Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                        not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                        Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                        That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                        "perfectly holy."

                        I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                        "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                        Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                        I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                        Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                        interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                        with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                        is not all of a single genre.

                        Hope this helps!

                        "Dr. J"
                        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                        Regent Unversity
                        Moderator

                        --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                        Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                        Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                        all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                        exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                        literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                        methodology which does just that.
                        >
                        > For example:
                        > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                        gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                        member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                        Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                        Israelites.
                        > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                        fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                        edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                        a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                        Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                        clearly intended to be symbolic.
                        >
                        > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                        church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                        exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                        >
                        > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                        harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                        but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                        Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                        began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                        symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                        gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                        Jewish one.
                        >
                        > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                        are just guessing out of our own minds.
                        >
                        > Yours
                        > John B
                        .

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                      • biblestudy
                        I personally think the Great Whore is all the Romes of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven mountains or
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                          I personally think the Great Whore is all the "Romes" of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven "mountains" or empires of Gentile history - Babel, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and will be present in the "Rome" of the "Beast".

                          (Obviously I am a futurist, not an Amillennialist or Historicist. Though I ,do not deny the truth of those interpretations. I think God has writeen Revelaiotn so that ther are several "layers" of interpretation, all of which are correct and not necessarily mutually exclusive. Probably I would be best categorised as an Idealist Futurist.)
                          John B

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Tom Ricks
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:24 AM
                          Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                          Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                          are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                          the church? I

                          Tom

                          Dr. Tom Ricks

                          ________________________________

                          From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                          Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                          wooden with your approach.

                          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                          entry [through its Messiah].

                          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                          "perfectly holy."

                          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                          is not all of a single genre.

                          Hope this helps!

                          "Dr. J"
                          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                          Regent Unversity
                          Moderator

                          --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                          <biblestudy@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                          literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                          methodology which does just that.
                          >
                          > For example:
                          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                          Israelites.
                          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                          clearly intended to be symbolic.
                          >
                          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                          >
                          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                          Jewish one.
                          >
                          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                          are just guessing out of our own minds.
                          >
                          > Yours
                          > John B

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                        • George F Somsel
                          By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                            By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT ADDRESSING JEWS but Christians whom they were equating with Israel.  This seems to have been a common practice in the early Church.  The implication is that they Jews of the OT and the Church of the NT form one People of God.  The Church replaces the Jews so that the author of the Apocalypse can state that those who claim to be Jews, i.e. those who were physically Jews, were not the true Israel.
                             george
                            gfsomsel


                            … search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.


                            - Jan Hus
                            _________




                            ________________________________
                            From: "charles.larkin@..." <charles.larkin@...>
                            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 7:19:26 PM
                            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                            It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
                            approach to
                            Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

                            One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
                            all, not to Jews
                            but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
                            Galatians.

                            The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
                            each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

                            As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
                            existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
                            although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
                            Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
                            Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

                            The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
                            larger Roman world was co-extensive
                            (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
                            fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
                            early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
                            enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

                            Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
                            rejecting the idea that the Galileans
                            were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
                            Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
                            "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
                            Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
                            of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
                            Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

                            Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
                            from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
                            They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
                            and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
                            in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
                            Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
                            to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
                            destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

                            Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
                            NT scholarship.

                            This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
                            than a quarter century ago:
                            "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
                            65: pp. 189-203)

                            Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
                            answer to this most
                            fundamental question of Christian origins.

                            Charles Gerard Larkin
                            Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
                            Saint Leo University (USA)

                            On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
                            George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
                            >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
                            >
                            >  
                            > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                            > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                            > Greetings.
                            >  
                            > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
                            >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                            >  
                            > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                            > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
                            >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
                            >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
                            >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
                            >with his blood:
                            > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
                            >  
                            > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
                            >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                            >
                            > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
                            >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
                            >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
                            >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
                            >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
                            >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
                            >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
                            >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
                            >form the People of God.
                            >
                            >
                            > … search for truth, hear truth,
                            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
                            >truth,
                            > defend the truth till death.
                            >
                            >
                            > - Jan Hus
                            > _________
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ __
                            >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@earthlink. net>
                            > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                            > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                            >
                            >
                            > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
                            >being too
                            > wooden with your approach.
                            >
                            > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
                            >not mean that
                            > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
                            >provided the
                            > entry [through its Messiah].
                            >
                            > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
                            >completeness, it need
                            > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
                            >The New
                            > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
                            >was a cube.
                            > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
                            >it is
                            > "perfectly holy."
                            >
                            > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
                            >is Rome. It's
                            > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
                            >reversed: "Amore."
                            > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
                            >lust.
                            >
                            > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                            >
                            > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
                            >much art in its
                            > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
                            >Both must vary
                            > with the various literary genres contained in
                            >Revelation, for the book
                            > is not all of a single genre.
                            >
                            > Hope this helps!
                            >
                            > "Dr. J"
                            > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                            > Regent Unversity
                            > Moderator
                            >
                            > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
                            ><biblestudy@ ...>
                            > wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
                            >>of "12
                            > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
                            >in Revelation.
                            > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
                            >through interpreting
                            > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
                            >strange
                            > exegetical model that would say some references are
                            >symbolic and some
                            > literal. This would open the door again to the
                            >Pretribulation school
                            > methodology which does just that.
                            >>
                            >> For example:
                            >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
                            >>- the 12
                            > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
                            >one has to be a
                            > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
                            >the bride of
                            > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
                            >not just
                            > Israelites.
                            >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
                            >>shown by the
                            > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
                            >thus having 12
                            > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
                            >stadia. Hence
                            > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
                            >as we find in
                            > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
                            >Israelites" is
                            > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                            >>
                            >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
                            >>ference to the
                            > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
                            >seems strange
                            > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                            >>
                            >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
                            >>admit the
                            > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
                            >time of Christ
                            > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
                            >mistake. The
                            > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
                            >Babylon because it
                            > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
                            >a typical OT
                            > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
                            >all the
                            > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
                            >system, not as
                            > Jewish one.
                            >>
                            >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
                            >>with then we
                            > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                            >>
                            >> Yours
                            >> John B
                            .






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • George F Somsel
                            I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.  It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 9, 2009
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                              I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.� It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power without reference to God and solely on the basis of human authority.� I think the equation of the Whore with any single world power is an error and leads to an attempt to find too much specific�"historical" reference in the work.� It certainly does not represent Jerusalem.
                              �george
                              gfsomsel


                              � search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.


                              - Jan Hus
                              _________




                              ________________________________
                              From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 9:47:58 AM
                              Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                              I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                              city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                              The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                              God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                              different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                              since Revelation was penned.

                              Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                              situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                              depends upon Revelation itself.

                              That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                              is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                              the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                              as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                              Blessings,
                              Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                              Regent University
                              Moderator

                              --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                              > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                              > the church? I
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              > Dr. Tom Ricks
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ____________ _________ _________ __
                              >
                              > From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                              > [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                              > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                              > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                              > wooden with your approach.
                              >
                              > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                              > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                              > entry [through its Messiah].
                              >
                              > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                              > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                              > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                              > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                              > "perfectly holy."
                              >
                              > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                              > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                              > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                              >
                              > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                              >
                              > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                              > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                              > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                              > is not all of a single genre.
                              >
                              > Hope this helps!
                              >
                              > "Dr. J"
                              > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                              > Regent Unversity
                              > Moderator
                              >
                              > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                              > <mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com> , "biblestudy"
                              > <biblestudy@ >
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                              > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                              > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                              > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                              > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                              > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                              > methodology which does just that.
                              > >
                              > > For example:
                              > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                              > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                              > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                              > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                              > Israelites.
                              > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                              > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                              > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                              > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                              > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                              > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                              > >
                              > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                              > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                              > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                              > >
                              > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                              > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                              > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                              > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                              > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                              > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                              > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                              > Jewish one.
                              > >
                              > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                              > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                              > >
                              > > Yours
                              > > John B
                              .






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
                              What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 10, 2009
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                                What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
                                nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

                                J Coates



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
                                Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
                                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation



                                My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
                                God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
                                John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
                                in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
                                imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

                                I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
                                (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
                                depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
                                John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
                                Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
                                and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
                                refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

                                This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
                                Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
                                This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the
                                devil."

                                This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
                                modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
                                Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
                                explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
                                "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
                                Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt
                                23:32-36).

                                The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
                                from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
                                Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
                                15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

                                I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
                                (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

                                I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
                                It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
                                Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

                                Ken Gentry
                                Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
                                .com>
                                To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
                                Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                                Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                                are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                                the church? I

                                Tom

                                Dr. Tom Ricks

                                ________________________________

                                From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                                Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                                To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                                I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                                wooden with your approach.

                                The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                                one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                                entry [through its Messiah].

                                Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                                not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                                Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                                That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                                "perfectly holy."

                                I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                                "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                                Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                                I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                                Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                                interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                                with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                                is not all of a single genre.

                                Hope this helps!

                                "Dr. J"
                                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                                Regent Unversity
                                Moderator

                                --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                                <biblestudy@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                                Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                                Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                                all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                                exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                                literal. This wou
                                ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                                methodology which does just that.
                                >
                                > For example:
                                > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                                gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                                member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                                Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                                Israelites.
                                > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                                fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                                edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                                a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                                Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                                clearly intended to be symbolic.
                                >
                                > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                                church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                                exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                                >
                                > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                                harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                                but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                                Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                                began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                                symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                                gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                                Jewish one.
                                >
                                > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                                are just guessing out of our own minds.
                                >
                                > Yours
                                > John B

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