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Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • jonknewton
    I think your approach has a lot of strengths, though it doesn t explain everything about Revelation (but which one approach ever can?) However, it is
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 20, 2009
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      I think your approach has a lot of strengths, though it doesn't
      explain everything about Revelation (but which one approach ever can?)

      However, it is susceptible to being used to support anti-semitism. How
      do you suggest this be avoided?

      Do you see features in the text that would guard against this?
      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, KennethGentry@... wrote:
      >
      > I  have noticed something which is distinctive to my
      redemptive-historical preterism and which brings out a strong
      relationship between chs 2-3 and the rest of Revelation. In the seven
      letters we have two important references: Rev 2:9 and 3:9. Both
      denounce the Jews, calling the Jewish synagogue a "synagogue of Satan"
      (cp. Jn 8:44). These tie in with Revelation's theme and flow.
      >  
      >
      > I see Revelation as paralleling in sentiment the Epistle to the
      Hebrews. Both show the passing away of the old covenant order (cp. Heb
      8:13; 12:25-29) and the coming of Christianity as the New Jerusalem
      (Heb 12:23), with the first century Christians under persecution (Heb.
      10:32-33). Both are concerned with potential apostasy under this pressure.
      >
      >  
      >
      > I hold that John establishes the overall theme of Revelation in Rev.
      1:7. That theme regards Christ's judgment-coming against the "tribes
      of the Land" (the Jews) for crucifying Christ (Mt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mk
      14:64; Lk 23:22-23; 24:20; Lk 24:20; Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15a; 4:10;
      5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-29; Ac 26:10; 1 Thess. 2:14-15). This
      coming of Christ is a metaphorical coming, a providential historical
      judgment (as in Isa 19:1). This theme verse (uniquely) parallels Matt
      24:30, which is in Christ's discourse on the AD 70 destruction of the
      Temple (Matt. 24:1-2, 16). Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 are speaking of the
      same historical event: AD 70.
      >
      >  
      >
      > The "Land dwellers" (aka "earth dwellers") are the non-Christian
      Jews who live in the Land. As Revelation unfolds, those sl
      > ain "in the Land" are the Jewish Christians in Israel (e.g.
      6:10-11). The sea beast (Rome/Nero) is locked in a relationship with
      the land beast (the Jewish high priestly aristocracy) against the
      Christians (cp. Jn 19:12, 15; cp. Mt 27:25). And behind them both is
      Satan (remember: Rev 2:9; 3:9 at this point).
      >
      >  
      >
      > The NT is filled with references to Israel’s persecution of
      Christians: Mt 10:17; Mt 23:37ff.; Ac 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33,
      40; 6:12-15; 7:54-60; 8:1; 9:1-4, 13, 21, 23, 29; 12:1-3; 13:45-50;
      14:2-5, 19; 17:5-8, 13; 18:6, 12, 17; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27-32; 
      22:3-5, 22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:5-9, 27; 25:2-15; 25:24; 26:21;
      28:17-29; Ro 15:31; 2Co 11:24; Gal 6:12 Heb 10:33-34. Note also (for
      one extra-biblical example): Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. 3:5:2): “For the
      Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime
      against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against
      his apostles.”
      >
      >  
      >
      > The harlot is Jerusalem (cp. Jer 3). She sits upon the sea beast
      (17:3), showing her relationship with Rome against the Christians
      (e.g., Acts 9:1-2; cp. Gal 4:24-26). She is drunk with the blood of
      the Jewish Christian saints (Rev 17:6; cp. Matt 23:32-37).
      >
      >  
      >
      > As the harlot and false prophet are destroyed in the latter
      chapters, the new Jerusalem (Christianity) comes down out of heaven
      (cp. Gal 4:24-26; Heb. 12:23) to forever replace her as God's wife.
      >
      >  
      >
      > Thus, John is putting on the mantle of an OT prophet in denouncing
      corrupt Israel (cp. Isa
      > 1; Jer 3; etc.). And consequently, the statements in Rev 2:9 and 3:9
      (there are others in those letters that also confirm this approach)
      link with the theme of Revelation and its flow and development.
      >
      >  
      >
      > Obviously this approach will raise a lot of questions (objections).
      I am currently working on a commentary that should be about 1000
      pages: The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Commentary on
      Revelation.
      >
      >
      >
      > Ken Gentry
      >  
      >
      > Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
      >
      > Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • biblestudy
      Can t see it myself. It is clear that Israel , the idea of 12 Tribes temple Jerusalem are all symbolic in places in Revelation. Exegetical integrity
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 8 2:17 PM
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        Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12 Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation. Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school methodology which does just that.

        For example:
        12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12 gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just Israelites.
        That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12 edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is clearly intended to be symbolic.

        Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.

        As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as Jewish one.

        If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we are just guessing out of our own minds.

        Yours
        John B


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: jonknewton
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:52 PM
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


        I think your approach has a lot of strengths, though it doesn't
        explain everything about Revelation (but which one approach ever can?)

        However, it is susceptible to being used to support anti-semitism. How
        do you suggest this be avoided?

        Do you see features in the text that would guard against this?
        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, KennethGentry@... wrote:
        >
        > IÂ have noticed something which is distinctive to my
        redemptive-historical preterism and which brings out a strong
        relationship between chs 2-3 and the rest of Revelation. In the seven
        letters we have two important references: Rev 2:9 and 3:9. Both
        denounce the Jews, calling the Jewish synagogue a "synagogue of Satan"
        (cp. Jn 8:44). These tie in with Revelation's theme and flow.
        > Â
        >
        > I see Revelation as paralleling in sentiment the Epistle to the
        Hebrews. Both show the passing away of the old covenant order (cp. Heb
        8:13; 12:25-29) and the coming of Christianity as the New Jerusalem
        (Heb 12:23), with the first century Christians under persecution (Heb.
        10:32-33). Both are concerned with potential apostasy under this pressure.
        >
        > Â
        >
        > I hold that John establishes the overall theme of Revelation in Rev.
        1:7. That theme regards Christ's judgment-coming against the "tribes
        of the Land" (the Jews) for crucifying Christ (Mt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mk
        14:64; Lk 23:22-23; 24:20; Lk 24:20; Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15a; 4:10;
        5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-29; Ac 26:10; 1 Thess. 2:14-15). This
        coming of Christ is a metaphorical coming, a providential historical
        judgment (as in Isa 19:1). This theme verse (uniquely) parallels Matt
        24:30, which is in Christ's discourse on the AD 70 destruction of the
        Temple (Matt. 24:1-2, 16). Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 are speaking of the
        same historical event: AD 70.
        >
        > Â
        >
        > The "Land dwellers" (aka "earth dwellers") are the non-Christian
        Jews who live in the Land. As Revelation unfolds, those sl
        > ain "in the Land" are the Jewish Christians in Israel (e.g.
        6:10-11). The sea beast (Rome/Nero) is locked in a relationship with
        the land beast (the Jewish high priestly aristocracy) against the
        Christians (cp. Jn 19:12, 15; cp. Mt 27:25). And behind them both is
        Satan (remember: Rev 2:9; 3:9 at this point).
        >
        > Â
        >
        > The NT is filled with references to Israelâ?Ts persecution of
        Christians: Mt 10:17; Mt 23:37ff.; Ac 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33,
        40; 6:12-15; 7:54-60; 8:1; 9:1-4, 13, 21, 23, 29; 12:1-3; 13:45-50;
        14:2-5, 19; 17:5-8, 13; 18:6, 12, 17; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27-32;Â
        22:3-5, 22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:5-9, 27; 25:2-15; 25:24; 26:21;
        28:17-29; Ro 15:31; 2Co 11:24; Gal 6:12 Heb 10:33-34. Note also (for
        one extra-biblical example): Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. 3:5:2): â?oFor the
        Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime
        against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against
        his apostles.�
        >
        > Â
        >
        > The harlot is Jerusalem (cp. Jer 3). She sits upon the sea beast
        (17:3), showing her relationship with Rome against the Christians
        (e.g., Acts 9:1-2; cp. Gal 4:24-26). She is drunk with the blood of
        the Jewish Christian saints (Rev 17:6; cp. Matt 23:32-37).
        >
        > Â
        >
        > As the harlot and false prophet are destroyed in the latter
        chapters, the new Jerusalem (Christianity) comes down out of heaven
        (cp. Gal 4:24-26; Heb. 12:23) to forever replace her as God's wife.
        >
        > Â
        >
        > Thus, John is putting on the mantle of an OT prophet in denouncing
        corrupt Israel (cp. Isa
        > 1; Jer 3; etc.). And consequently, the statements in Rev 2:9 and 3:9
        (there are others in those letters that also confirm this approach)
        link with the theme of Revelation and its flow and development.
        >
        > Â
        >
        > Obviously this approach will raise a lot of questions (objections).
        I am currently working on a commentary that should be about 1000
        pages: The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Commentary on
        Revelation.
        >
        >
        >
        > Ken Gentry
        > Â
        >
        > Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
        >
        > Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
        > __________________________________________________________
        > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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      • drjenney2
        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too wooden with your approach. The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 8 2:56 PM
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          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
          wooden with your approach.

          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
          entry [through its Messiah].

          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
          "perfectly holy."

          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
          is not all of a single genre.

          Hope this helps!

          "Dr. J"
          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
          Regent Unversity
          Moderator



          --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
          literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
          methodology which does just that.
          >
          > For example:
          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
          Israelites.
          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
          clearly intended to be symbolic.
          >
          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
          >
          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
          Jewish one.
          >
          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
          are just guessing out of our own minds.
          >
          > Yours
          > John B
        • George F Somsel
          I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites   1James, a servant of God and of the Lord
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 8 3:31 PM
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            I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites

             
            1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
            To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
            Greetings.
             
            The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
             
            1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
            To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
            May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
             
            The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

            Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.


            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________




            ________________________________
            From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


            I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
            wooden with your approach.

            The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
            one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
            entry [through its Messiah].

            Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
            not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
            Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
            That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
            "perfectly holy."

            I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
            "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
            Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

            I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

            Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
            interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
            with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
            is not all of a single genre.

            Hope this helps!

            "Dr. J"
            Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
            Regent Unversity
            Moderator

            --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
            Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
            Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
            all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
            exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
            literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
            methodology which does just that.
            >
            > For example:
            > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
            gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
            member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
            Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
            Israelites.
            > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
            fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
            edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
            a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
            Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
            clearly intended to be symbolic.
            >
            > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
            church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
            exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
            >
            > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
            harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
            but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
            Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
            began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
            symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
            gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
            Jewish one.
            >
            > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
            are just guessing out of our own minds.
            >
            > Yours
            > John B
            .






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • charles.larkin@saintleo.edu
            It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric approach to Revelation in particular and the NT in general. One of the very earliest NT writings was
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 8 4:19 PM
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              It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
              approach to
              Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

              One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
              all, not to Jews
              but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
              Galatians.

              The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
              each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

              As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
              existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
              although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
              Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
              Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

              The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
              larger Roman world was co-extensive
              (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
              fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
              early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
              enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

              Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
              rejecting the idea that the Galileans
              were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
              Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
              "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
              Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
              of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
              Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

              Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
              from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
              They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
              and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
              in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
              Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
              to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
              destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

              Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
              NT scholarship.

              This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
              than a quarter century ago:
              "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
              65: pp. 189-203)

              Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
              answer to this most
              fundamental question of Christian origins.

              Charles Gerard Larkin
              Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
              Saint Leo University (USA)






              On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
              George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
              > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
              >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
              >
              >  
              > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
              > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
              > Greetings.
              >  
              > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
              >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
              >  
              > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
              > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
              >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
              >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
              >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
              >with his blood:
              > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
              >  
              > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
              >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
              >
              > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
              >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
              >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
              >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
              >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
              >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
              >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
              >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
              >form the People of God.
              >
              >
              > … search for truth, hear truth,
              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
              >truth,
              > defend the truth till death.
              >
              >
              > - Jan Hus
              > _________
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
              > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
              > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
              >
              >
              > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
              >being too
              > wooden with your approach.
              >
              > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
              >not mean that
              > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
              >provided the
              > entry [through its Messiah].
              >
              > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
              >completeness, it need
              > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
              >The New
              > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
              >was a cube.
              > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
              >it is
              > "perfectly holy."
              >
              > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
              >is Rome. It's
              > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
              >reversed: "Amore."
              > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
              >lust.
              >
              > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
              >
              > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
              >much art in its
              > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
              >Both must vary
              > with the various literary genres contained in
              >Revelation, for the book
              > is not all of a single genre.
              >
              > Hope this helps!
              >
              > "Dr. J"
              > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
              > Regent Unversity
              > Moderator
              >
              > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
              ><biblestudy@ ...>
              > wrote:
              >>
              >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
              >>of "12
              > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
              >in Revelation.
              > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
              >through interpreting
              > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
              >strange
              > exegetical model that would say some references are
              >symbolic and some
              > literal. This would open the door again to the
              >Pretribulation school
              > methodology which does just that.
              >>
              >> For example:
              >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
              >>- the 12
              > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
              >one has to be a
              > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
              >the bride of
              > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
              >not just
              > Israelites.
              >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
              >>shown by the
              > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
              >thus having 12
              > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
              >stadia. Hence
              > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
              >as we find in
              > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
              >Israelites" is
              > clearly intended to be symbolic.
              >>
              >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
              >>ference to the
              > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
              >seems strange
              > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
              >>
              >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
              >>admit the
              > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
              >time of Christ
              > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
              >mistake. The
              > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
              >Babylon because it
              > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
              >a typical OT
              > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
              >all the
              > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
              >system, not as
              > Jewish one.
              >>
              >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
              >>with then we
              > are just guessing out of our own minds.
              >>
              >> Yours
              >> John B
              > .
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Tom Ricks
              Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or are you saying that it symbolizes all Romes throughout the history of the church? I
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 9 6:24 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                the church? I



                Tom

                Dr. Tom Ricks



                ________________________________

                From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



                I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                wooden with your approach.

                The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                entry [through its Messiah].

                Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                "perfectly holy."

                I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                is not all of a single genre.

                Hope this helps!

                "Dr. J"
                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                Regent Unversity
                Moderator

                --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                <biblestudy@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                methodology which does just that.
                >
                > For example:
                > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                Israelites.
                > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                clearly intended to be symbolic.
                >
                > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                >
                > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                Jewish one.
                >
                > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                are just guessing out of our own minds.
                >
                > Yours
                > John B





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • drjenney2
                I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual city of Rome. Thus, the exegetical answer is Rome itself. The application answer
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 9 6:47 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                  city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                  The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                  God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                  different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                  since Revelation was penned.

                  Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                  situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                  depends upon Revelation itself.

                  That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                  is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                  the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                  as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                  Blessings,
                  Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                  Regent University
                  Moderator

                  --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                  > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                  > the church? I
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  > Dr. Tom Ricks
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >
                  > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                  > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                  > wooden with your approach.
                  >
                  > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                  > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                  > entry [through its Messiah].
                  >
                  > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                  > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                  > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                  > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                  > "perfectly holy."
                  >
                  > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                  > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                  > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                  >
                  > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                  >
                  > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                  > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                  > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                  > is not all of a single genre.
                  >
                  > Hope this helps!
                  >
                  > "Dr. J"
                  > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                  > Regent Unversity
                  > Moderator
                  >
                  > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                  > <biblestudy@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                  > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                  > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                  > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                  > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                  > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                  > methodology which does just that.
                  > >
                  > > For example:
                  > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                  > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                  > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                  > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                  > Israelites.
                  > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                  > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                  > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                  > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                  > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                  > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                  > >
                  > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                  > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                  > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                  > >
                  > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                  > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                  > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                  > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                  > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                  > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                  > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                  > Jewish one.
                  > >
                  > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                  > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                  > >
                  > > Yours
                  > > John B
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • KennethGentry@cs.com
                  My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God s divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 9 7:19 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church. John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

                    I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16 (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

                    This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9. This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the devil."

                    This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt 23:32-36).

                    The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8), from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev 15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

                    I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

                    I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation. It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

                    Ken Gentry
                    Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tom Ricks <tom@...>
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
                    Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



                    Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                    are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                    the church? I



                    Tom

                    Dr. Tom Ricks



                    ________________________________

                    From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                    Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



                    I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                    wooden with your approach.

                    The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                    one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                    entry [through its Messiah].

                    Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                    not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                    Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                    That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                    "perfectly holy."

                    I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                    "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                    Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                    I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                    Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                    interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                    with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                    is not all of a single genre.

                    Hope this helps!

                    "Dr. J"
                    Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                    Regent Unversity
                    Moderator

                    --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                    <biblestudy@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                    Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                    Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                    all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                    exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                    literal. This wou
                    ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                    methodology which does just that.
                    >
                    > For example:
                    > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                    gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                    member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                    Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                    Israelites.
                    > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                    fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                    edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                    a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                    Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                    clearly intended to be symbolic.
                    >
                    > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                    church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                    exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                    >
                    > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                    harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                    but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                    Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                    began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                    symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                    gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                    Jewish one.
                    >
                    > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                    are just guessing out of our own minds.
                    >
                    > Yours
                    > John B





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tom Ricks
                    Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately I have heard way too much on the wild speculation side of the story!) Tom Dr. Tom
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 9 7:30 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Agree with your assessment and appreciate your thoughts. (Unfortunately
                      I have heard way too much on the "wild speculation" side of the story!)




                      Tom

                      Dr. Tom Ricks

                      ________________________________

                      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                      Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:48 AM
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff



                      I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                      city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                      The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                      God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                      different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                      since Revelation was penned.

                      Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                      situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                      depends upon Revelation itself.

                      That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                      is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                      the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                      as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                      Blessings,
                      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                      Regent University
                      Moderator

                      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "Tom Ricks" <tom@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                      > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history
                      of
                      > the church? I
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                      > Dr. Tom Ricks
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                      > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                      > wooden with your approach.
                      >
                      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                      > entry [through its Messiah].
                      >
                      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                      > "perfectly holy."
                      >
                      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                      >
                      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                      >
                      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                      > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                      > is not all of a single genre.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps!
                      >
                      > "Dr. J"
                      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                      > Regent Unversity
                      > Moderator
                      >
                      > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                      > <biblestudy@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                      > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                      > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                      > methodology which does just that.
                      > >
                      > > For example:
                      > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                      > Israelites.
                      > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                      > >
                      > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                      > >
                      > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                      > Jewish one.
                      > >
                      > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                      > >
                      > > Yours
                      > > John B
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • biblestudy
                      Hi, I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 9 2:07 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi,
                        I did not mean to imply that one had to be a physical Israelite to enter the New Jerusalem. My point was that the idea of 12 tribes was clearly symbolic. After all Gentiles get in, don't we?
                        Also I was pointing out that the idea of 144,000 is clearly symbolic, being the external dimensions of the city, i.e. the border that includes all the inhabitants.
                        I don't think such interpretation is wooden at all. Simply reflects the symbols as given in the book. If we don't use the keys John gives us then we are inventing our own. And who says that we have been given the secret code?
                        John B

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: drjenney2
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:56 AM
                        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                        I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                        wooden with your approach.

                        The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                        one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                        entry [through its Messiah].

                        Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                        not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                        Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                        That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                        "perfectly holy."

                        I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                        "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                        Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                        I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                        Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                        interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                        with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                        is not all of a single genre.

                        Hope this helps!

                        "Dr. J"
                        Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                        Regent Unversity
                        Moderator

                        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                        Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                        Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                        all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                        exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                        literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                        methodology which does just that.
                        >
                        > For example:
                        > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                        gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                        member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                        Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                        Israelites.
                        > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                        fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                        edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                        a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                        Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                        clearly intended to be symbolic.
                        >
                        > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                        church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                        exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                        >
                        > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                        harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                        but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                        Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                        began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                        symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                        gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                        Jewish one.
                        >
                        > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                        are just guessing out of our own minds.
                        >
                        > Yours
                        > John B






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                      • biblestudy
                        I agree. Or even of Hebrews. John B ... From: George F Somsel To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM Subject: Re:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 9 2:07 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I agree. Or even of Hebrews.
                          John B

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: George F Somsel
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 12:31 PM
                          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                          I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites


                          1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                          To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                          Greetings.

                          The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas 1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                          1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                          To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:
                          May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

                          The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

                          Also note that the author of the Apocalypse speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying." The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Thus it would appear that the OT saints and the Church together form the People of God.

                          … search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________

                          ________________________________
                          From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                          I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                          wooden with your approach.

                          The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                          one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                          entry [through its Messiah].

                          Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                          not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                          Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                          That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                          "perfectly holy."

                          I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                          "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                          Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                          I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                          Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                          interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                          with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                          is not all of a single genre.

                          Hope this helps!

                          "Dr. J"
                          Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                          Regent Unversity
                          Moderator

                          --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy" <biblestudy@ ...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                          Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                          Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                          all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                          exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                          literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                          methodology which does just that.
                          >
                          > For example:
                          > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                          gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                          member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                          Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                          Israelites.
                          > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                          fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                          edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                          a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                          Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                          clearly intended to be symbolic.
                          >
                          > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                          church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                          exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                          >
                          > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                          harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                          but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                          Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                          began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                          symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                          gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                          Jewish one.
                          >
                          > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                          are just guessing out of our own minds.
                          >
                          > Yours
                          > John B
                          .

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                        • biblestudy
                          I personally think the Great Whore is all the Romes of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven mountains or
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 9 2:12 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I personally think the Great Whore is all the "Romes" of history. It is a system rather than a place and it has been present in all the seven "mountains" or empires of Gentile history - Babel, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, Rome and will be present in the "Rome" of the "Beast".

                            (Obviously I am a futurist, not an Amillennialist or Historicist. Though I ,do not deny the truth of those interpretations. I think God has writeen Revelaiotn so that ther are several "layers" of interpretation, all of which are correct and not necessarily mutually exclusive. Probably I would be best categorised as an Idealist Futurist.)
                            John B

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Tom Ricks
                            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:24 AM
                            Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                            Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                            are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                            the church? I

                            Tom

                            Dr. Tom Ricks

                            ________________________________

                            From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                            Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                            I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                            wooden with your approach.

                            The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                            one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                            entry [through its Messiah].

                            Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                            not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                            Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                            That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                            "perfectly holy."

                            I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                            "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                            Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                            I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                            Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                            interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                            with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                            is not all of a single genre.

                            Hope this helps!

                            "Dr. J"
                            Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                            Regent Unversity
                            Moderator

                            --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                            <biblestudy@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                            Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                            Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                            all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                            exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                            literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                            methodology which does just that.
                            >
                            > For example:
                            > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                            gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                            member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                            Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                            Israelites.
                            > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                            fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                            edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                            a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                            Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                            clearly intended to be symbolic.
                            >
                            > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                            church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                            exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                            >
                            > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                            harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                            but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                            Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                            began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                            symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                            gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                            Jewish one.
                            >
                            > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                            are just guessing out of our own minds.
                            >
                            > Yours
                            > John B

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                          • George F Somsel
                            By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 9 3:37 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              By citing James and 1 Peter I was not attempting to imply that those addressed were Jews.  In fact, my intention was quite the opposite.  They were NOT ADDRESSING JEWS but Christians whom they were equating with Israel.  This seems to have been a common practice in the early Church.  The implication is that they Jews of the OT and the Church of the NT form one People of God.  The Church replaces the Jews so that the author of the Apocalypse can state that those who claim to be Jews, i.e. those who were physically Jews, were not the true Israel.
                               george
                              gfsomsel


                              … search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.


                              - Jan Hus
                              _________




                              ________________________________
                              From: "charles.larkin@..." <charles.larkin@...>
                              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 7:19:26 PM
                              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                              It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
                              approach to
                              Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

                              One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
                              all, not to Jews
                              but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the
                              Galatians.

                              The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
                              each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

                              As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
                              existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
                              although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
                              Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
                              Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

                              The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
                              larger Roman world was co-extensive
                              (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
                              fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
                              early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
                              enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

                              Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
                              rejecting the idea that the Galileans
                              were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
                              Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
                              "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
                              Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
                              of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
                              Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

                              Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
                              from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
                              They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
                              and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
                              in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
                              Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
                              to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
                              destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

                              Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
                              NT scholarship.

                              This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
                              than a quarter century ago:
                              "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
                              65: pp. 189-203)

                              Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
                              answer to this most
                              fundamental question of Christian origins.

                              Charles Gerard Larkin
                              Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
                              Saint Leo University (USA)

                              On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
                              George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                              > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
                              >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
                              >
                              >  
                              > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
                              > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
                              > Greetings.
                              >  
                              > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
                              >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                              >  
                              > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
                              > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
                              >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
                              >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
                              >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
                              >with his blood:
                              > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
                              >  
                              > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
                              >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                              >
                              > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
                              >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
                              >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
                              >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
                              >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
                              >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
                              >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
                              >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
                              >form the People of God.
                              >
                              >
                              > … search for truth, hear truth,
                              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
                              >truth,
                              > defend the truth till death.
                              >
                              >
                              > - Jan Hus
                              > _________
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ____________ _________ _________ __
                              >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@earthlink. net>
                              > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                              > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
                              > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                              >
                              >
                              > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
                              >being too
                              > wooden with your approach.
                              >
                              > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
                              >not mean that
                              > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
                              >provided the
                              > entry [through its Messiah].
                              >
                              > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
                              >completeness, it need
                              > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
                              >The New
                              > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
                              >was a cube.
                              > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
                              >it is
                              > "perfectly holy."
                              >
                              > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
                              >is Rome. It's
                              > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
                              >reversed: "Amore."
                              > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
                              >lust.
                              >
                              > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                              >
                              > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
                              >much art in its
                              > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
                              >Both must vary
                              > with the various literary genres contained in
                              >Revelation, for the book
                              > is not all of a single genre.
                              >
                              > Hope this helps!
                              >
                              > "Dr. J"
                              > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                              > Regent Unversity
                              > Moderator
                              >
                              > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
                              ><biblestudy@ ...>
                              > wrote:
                              >>
                              >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
                              >>of "12
                              > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
                              >in Revelation.
                              > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
                              >through interpreting
                              > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
                              >strange
                              > exegetical model that would say some references are
                              >symbolic and some
                              > literal. This would open the door again to the
                              >Pretribulation school
                              > methodology which does just that.
                              >>
                              >> For example:
                              >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
                              >>- the 12
                              > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
                              >one has to be a
                              > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
                              >the bride of
                              > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
                              >not just
                              > Israelites.
                              >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
                              >>shown by the
                              > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
                              >thus having 12
                              > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
                              >stadia. Hence
                              > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
                              >as we find in
                              > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
                              >Israelites" is
                              > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                              >>
                              >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
                              >>ference to the
                              > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
                              >seems strange
                              > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                              >>
                              >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
                              >>admit the
                              > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
                              >time of Christ
                              > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
                              >mistake. The
                              > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
                              >Babylon because it
                              > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
                              >a typical OT
                              > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
                              >all the
                              > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
                              >system, not as
                              > Jewish one.
                              >>
                              >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
                              >>with then we
                              > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                              >>
                              >> Yours
                              >> John B
                              .






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • George F Somsel
                              I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.  It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 9 3:42 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I would disagree that the Whore of Babylon is Rome.� It would include Rome, but it would also represent any and all powers which attempt to wield power without reference to God and solely on the basis of human authority.� I think the equation of the Whore with any single world power is an error and leads to an attempt to find too much specific�"historical" reference in the work.� It certainly does not represent Jerusalem.
                                �george
                                gfsomsel


                                � search for truth, hear truth,
                                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                defend the truth till death.


                                - Jan Hus
                                _________




                                ________________________________
                                From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
                                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 9:47:58 AM
                                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff


                                I am confident the original meaning of the Revelation was the actual
                                city of Rome. Thus, the "exegetical answer" is Rome itself.

                                The "application answer" [hermeneutics proper] is trickier. Certainly
                                God is opposed to all kinds of whoredom and, I suppose, there are many
                                different cities and nations that have typified this kind of behavior
                                since Revelation was penned.

                                Ultimately, how one applies this analysis to the contemporary
                                situation depends upon his/her/their perspective, far more than it
                                depends upon Revelation itself.

                                That's as far as I am willing to go on this list, the purpose of which
                                is to support the scholarly discussion of Revelation. In my opinion,
                                the application questions need to be discussed elsewhere, especially
                                as some of them fall into the realm of sheer wild speculation.

                                Blessings,
                                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                                Regent University
                                Moderator

                                --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Ricks" <tom@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                                > are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                                > the church? I
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Tom
                                >
                                > Dr. Tom Ricks
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                                >
                                > From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                > [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                                > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                                > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                                > wooden with your approach.
                                >
                                > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                                > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                                > entry [through its Messiah].
                                >
                                > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                                > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                                > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                                > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                                > "perfectly holy."
                                >
                                > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                                > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                                > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.
                                >
                                > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
                                >
                                > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                                > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                                > with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                                > is not all of a single genre.
                                >
                                > Hope this helps!
                                >
                                > "Dr. J"
                                > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                                > Regent Unversity
                                > Moderator
                                >
                                > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                                > <mailto:revelation- list%40yahoogrou ps.com> , "biblestudy"
                                > <biblestudy@ >
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                                > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                                > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                                > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                                > exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                                > literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                                > methodology which does just that.
                                > >
                                > > For example:
                                > > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                                > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                                > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                                > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                                > Israelites.
                                > > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                                > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                                > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                                > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                                > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                                > clearly intended to be symbolic.
                                > >
                                > > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                                > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                                > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                                > >
                                > > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                                > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                                > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                                > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                                > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                                > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                                > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                                > Jewish one.
                                > >
                                > > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                                > are just guessing out of our own minds.
                                > >
                                > > Yours
                                > > John B
                                .






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Moriah Plastics (Coates)
                                What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic nature of the flight from Jerusalem? J Coates ... From:
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 10 1:57 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  What would the New Perspective on Paul have to say about the communal salvic
                                  nature of the flight from Jerusalem?

                                  J Coates



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KennethGentry@...
                                  Sent: 09 February 2009 05:19 PM
                                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [revelation-list] The harlot in Revelation



                                  My understanding of Revelation is that it is a forensic drama presenting
                                  God's divorce of his OT wife Israel, and his taking?a new bride, the Church.
                                  John intentionally puts on the mantle of an OT prophet and denounces Israel
                                  in similar terms. This is why the book is so Judaic in its grammar and
                                  imagery, with innumerable allusions to OT passages.

                                  I believe the harlot is Jerusalem, who is being modeled on Jer 3 and Eze 16
                                  (and?Isaiah 1). In Rev 17 she is seen riding the beast (Rome) because she
                                  depended on Rome to get at Christ and Christians. Remember her call in
                                  John's Gospel (I believe John also wrote Revelation): "We have no king but
                                  Caesar. Crucify him!" And this from a book that declares "he came to his own
                                  and his own received him not" (Jn 1:11). And from a book that repeatedly
                                  refers to?"the Jews" ---?in a bad light.

                                  This approach matches up with the two statements regarding "the synagogue of
                                  Satan" inhabited by people who "call themselves Jews" in Rev 2:9 and 3:9.
                                  This reminds us of Jesus' charge in John 8:44: "You are of your father the
                                  devil."

                                  This also explains the trampling of the temple (Rev 11:2), which language is
                                  modeled on Lk 21:24. It also explains the merging of Zech 12 and Dan 7 in
                                  Rev 1:7. This merger?uniquely occurs elsewhere only in Mt 24:31, which is
                                  explaining the destruction of the temple (cf. Mt 28:38-24:2, 16) in that
                                  "generation" (Mt 24:34). And the Olivet Discourse is given in the context of
                                  Israel's rejecting Christ (Mt 23:38) and soon persecution of his follows (Mt
                                  23:32-36).

                                  The historical Jerusalem in Revelation is denounced as new Egypt (Rev 11:8),
                                  from which the persecuted Christians must?depart by means of an exodus (note
                                  Revelation's frequent exodus imagery and?Egyptian plague imagery, e.g., Rev
                                  15:3; 18:4; etc., etc., etc.)

                                  I am convinced John is enhancing and expanding on Christ's Olivet Discourse
                                  (which may explain why it does not appear in his Gospel).

                                  I am currently researching and writing a 1000 page commentary on Revelation.
                                  It will be titled: "The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-historical
                                  Commentary on the Book of Revelation."

                                  Ken Gentry
                                  Author, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Tom Ricks <tom@greentreechurch <mailto:tom%40greentreechurch.com>
                                  .com>
                                  To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 9:24 am
                                  Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                                  Are you suggesting that the Great Whore is relegated only to Rome? Or
                                  are you saying that it symbolizes all "Romes" throughout the history of
                                  the church? I

                                  Tom

                                  Dr. Tom Ricks

                                  ________________________________

                                  From: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of drjenney2
                                  Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 4:56 PM
                                  To: revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

                                  I think you have made some good points here, but you are being too
                                  wooden with your approach.

                                  The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need not mean that
                                  one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has provided the
                                  entry [through its Messiah].

                                  Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of completeness, it need
                                  not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel). The New
                                  Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies was a cube.
                                  That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that it is
                                  "perfectly holy."

                                  I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation is Rome. It's
                                  "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma" reversed: "Amore."
                                  Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained lust.

                                  I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

                                  Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as much art in its
                                  interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique. Both must vary
                                  with the various literary genres contained in Revelation, for the book
                                  is not all of a single genre.

                                  Hope this helps!

                                  "Dr. J"
                                  Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
                                  Regent Unversity
                                  Moderator

                                  --- In revelation-list@ <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com
                                  <mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com> , "biblestudy"
                                  <biblestudy@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12
                                  Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation.
                                  Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting
                                  all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange
                                  exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some
                                  literal. This wou
                                  ld open the door again to the Pretribulation school
                                  methodology which does just that.
                                  >
                                  > For example:
                                  > 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12
                                  gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a
                                  member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of
                                  Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just
                                  Israelites.
                                  > That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the
                                  fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12
                                  edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence
                                  a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in
                                  Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is
                                  clearly intended to be symbolic.
                                  >
                                  > Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the
                                  church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange
                                  exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
                                  >
                                  > As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the
                                  harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ
                                  but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The
                                  Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it
                                  began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT
                                  symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the
                                  gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as
                                  Jewish one.
                                  >
                                  > If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we
                                  are just guessing out of our own minds.
                                  >
                                  > Yours
                                  > John B

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