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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Predictions

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  • Ian Paul
    Kym ... An interesting phrase: John must have meant . Why so? What would John s readers have understood? I am not sure they would have understood it as only
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 21, 2001
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      Kym

      >> In Revelation's terms, in first-century Asia Minor under Roman
      >rule, > assuming that the faithful were reluctant to participate in
      >the trade guilds > because of their association with pagan
      >worship.>>>
      >
      >I think that is a reasonable answer, especially for what Robert
      >Brenchley has termed a/the 'partial fulfilment' of the Revelation in
      >the time that it was given. The severity of the conditions in Asia
      >Minor probably varied from city to city, however, and they hardly
      >answer to the global economic system which seems to be
      >mooted in Rev 13 (e.g. verses 3,7,12,13) and in terms which
      >John must have meant to include much more than Asia.

      An interesting phrase: 'John must have meant'. Why so? What would John's
      readers have understood? I am not sure they would have understood it as only
      being a 'partial fulfilment' so we therefore have to ask the hermeneutical
      question as to why we should read it differently. There is the particular
      question of what John and his readers understood by 'global' and what we
      understand by it.

      Ian Paul
    • Ed Garcia
      From two different e-mails Rev. Paul responds to a statement made by, I ... In Revelation s terms, in first-century Asia Minor under Roman rule, assuming that
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 21, 2001
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        From two different e-mails Rev. Paul responds to a statement made by, I
        think, ksmith and also makes a statement:

        > When was there a global economic
        >system which prevented the faithful from trading (Rev 13:16-17)?

        In Revelation's terms, in first-century Asia Minor under Roman rule,
        assuming that the faithful were reluctant to participate in the trade guilds
        because of their association with pagan worship.


        "There is the particular question of what John and his readers understood by
        'global' and what we understand by it."

        With all due respect Rev. Paul I don't think your understanding of "global"
        is global enough. However I would not want to run the risk of having
        Revelation cover every major historical event or catastrophe from Nero to
        the WTC tragedy, the prophecy would then become useless if not ridiculous.

        -Ed Garcia
        Kansas

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Ian Paul [mailto:ian.b.paul@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 8:59 AM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Predictions



        Kym

        >> In Revelation's terms, in first-century Asia Minor under Roman
        >rule, > assuming that the faithful were reluctant to participate in
        >the trade guilds > because of their association with pagan
        >worship.>>>
        >
        >I think that is a reasonable answer, especially for what Robert
        >Brenchley has termed a/the 'partial fulfilment' of the Revelation in
        >the time that it was given. The severity of the conditions in Asia
        >Minor probably varied from city to city, however, and they hardly
        >answer to the global economic system which seems to be
        >mooted in Rev 13 (e.g. verses 3,7,12,13) and in terms which
        >John must have meant to include much more than Asia.

        An interesting phrase: 'John must have meant'. Why so? What would John's
        readers have understood? I am not sure they would have understood it as only
        being a 'partial fulfilment' so we therefore have to ask the hermeneutical
        question as to why we should read it differently. There is the particular
        question of what John and his readers understood by 'global' and what we
        understand by it.

        Ian Paul


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      • ksmith@standrews.sa.edu.au
        Dear Ian, ... would John s readers have understood? and ... readers understood by global and what we understand by it. ... John s terminology - e.g.
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 23, 2001
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          Dear Ian,

          > An interesting phrase: 'John must have meant'. Why so? What
          would John's > readers have understood? >>> and
          >>>There is the particular > question of what John and his
          readers understood by 'global' and what we > understand by it.
          >>>

          John's terminology - e.g. 'the whole earth' (13:3); 'every tribe and
          people and tongue and nation' (13:7) - clearly implies a
          considerably broader collection of people than just those of Asia.
          It may be that John meant the Roman Empire alone, but there
          can be no doubt that he was aware of nations outside of the
          empire - both because there were armies advancing and
          defending the Empires boudaries and because of personal
          dealings he must have had with people from beyond those
          boundaries (e,g Acts 2:9-11).

          While his readers understood - or expected - that the events
          depicted in the Revelation would affect the whole world - I think
          they would have particularly understood that much of it would be
          occur in the arena over which the Beast (Nero) had authority, i.e.
          the Roman Empire.

          >>>I am not sure they would have understood it as only > being
          a 'partial fulfilment' so we therefore have to ask the
          hermeneutical > question as to why we should read it differently.
          >>>

          I do not think that the Church which received the Revelation and
          those who led it would have expected a 'partial fulfilment'. They
          believed that the end was upon them and hence much of the
          expectaion in the New Testament that they would see the
          parousia. They expected a complete fulfilment. Some questions
          may have begun to creep in prior to Nero's death - perhaps as
          the persecutions began to wane - but it was only after it (Nero's
          death) and the realization that Christ did not return at the time
          that they expected that they had to come to grips with the
          multilayered nature (i.e. another, final fulfilment) of the
          Apocalypse.

          Sincerely,

          Kym Smith
          Adelaide
          South Australia
          khs@...
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