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Re: [revelation-list] Measuring again

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  • George F Somsel
    The New Jerusalem is mentioned but twice in the Apocalypse. In both cases it is depicted as coming down from God out of heaven. It is always coming and
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 19, 2007
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      The New Jerusalem is mentioned but twice in the Apocalypse. In both cases it is depicted as "coming down from God out of heaven." It is always coming and never here -- which reminds me of a line from literature but its exact wording escapes me at the moment. The point is that, like the Temple which is measured (but whose measurements are never given), it is a heavenly entity, not an earthly one. Have you ever noted the measurements given for the New Jerusalem. It is curious to me that of all the commentaries which have been written I have yet to see any significance attached to the measurements which are given. The measurement when converted is 1,500 Roman miles or 1,379 miles. This is sufficient to cover the entire Roman Empire. These measurements must be taken seriously. They were not included to add local color ["colour" for our Brit friends who don't know how to spell in English <smile>).

      As regards the measuring of the Temple itself and the leaving out of the outer court, it is similar to the New Jerusalem. It is also connected to the two groups of chapter 7. The one consists of Jews and the other predominantly of gentiles. The one is fixed at a definite number of 144,000, not because this is the exact number of faithful Jews but because the books have been closed on that period. The phase of God's dealing with the nation of Israel is finished. The Temple, like the New Jerusalem, includes the entire oecumene, but the outer courts are excluded from counting because it is "trampled by the gentiles." The second group, however, no man can number because it is yet ongoing.

      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "KennethGentry@..." <KennethGentry@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:44:33 PM
      Subject: [revelation-list] Measuring again

      In a message dated 12/18/2007 5:38:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      gfsomsel@yahoo. com writes:

      > Let God be true though every man be false
      >
      > Rom 3.4
      >
      > I care not what commentators "nearly unanimously" may maintain. It goes
      > against the use in the text of scripture. If you are going to maintain that it
      > is used differently from its use elsewhere, you must establish that.
      >

      Well, perhaps you are right and all others are wrong. But I am surprised that
      you cannot entertain the possibility that John used the imagery in a new way
      (if indeed he did). He has a habit of adapting OT images to his own use.

      Furthermore, I thought that I did attempt to "establish" that he used the
      image differently from the verses you cited. My previous argument was as follows:

      (1) This scene appears to function like that in Rev 7 and the marking of the
      144,000. They already exist, but they are being marked for protection (from
      the howling four winds of the earth).

      (2) John is commanded to not measure the outer court because it is for
      destruction (11:2). This seems clearly intended to contrast the positive measuring
      in 11:1, thereby indicating measuring is for preservation purposes.

      (3) The leaving out of the outer court for trampling surely implies it
      exists. How else could it be trampled? The whole temple complex is in view: the
      inner naos and the outer courts.

      (4) The measuring in Rev 21:15ff is not for purposes of construction, for the
      the city comes down from heaven fully formed (Rev 21:1) -- as the text
      indicates in stating "the city is laid out" (Rev 21:16).

      Also I pointed out that stretching out a measuring line is often used to mark
      out those who will be judged (Lam 2:7, 8; Isa 34:11; Am 7:6-9, 17; 2 Ki
      21:12-13; 2Sa 8:2), thereby having nothing to do with measuring for construction.

      Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
      Director, GoodBirth Ministries
      <A HREF="www.goodbirth ministries. com">GoodBirth Ministries</ A>

      Owner, KennethGentry. Com
      <A HREF="www.KennethGe ntry.Com" >KennethGentry. Com</A>
      "Serious Studies for Serious Christians"

      Revelation Commentary Project
      If you would like to give toward funding my research on
      Revelation please go to <A HREF="www.KennethGe ntry.Com" >KennethGentry. Com</A> then click
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