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867RE: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2:9; 3:9

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  • David Scholer
    Oct 13 1:57 PM
      For what it is worth, I agree. I will look for Rob's article, which I had
      not seen. The discussion of this whole issue has been fun. As G. K.
      Chesterton said (in Orthodoxy): St. John saw many strange creatures in this
      visions, but none so strange as his commentators!



      David M. Scholer

      Professsor of New Testament and Associate Dean for the Center for Advanced
      Theological Studies

      Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena CA 91182

      626-584-5288; dscholer@...



      -----Original Message-----
      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert Dalrymple
      Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 1:45 PM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2:9; 3:9





      I agree that the Jews in Rev 2:9 are ethnic jews. As for the two groups in
      Rev 7, I have recently published an Article in Biblica 86 (2005) 396-406
      titled 'These are the Ones.' Here I argued that the two groups in Rev
      7--the 144,000 and the innumerable multitude--are indeed the same based on
      literary and thematic issues.



      Rob Dalrymple





      ----- Original Message ----

      From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>

      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:41:36 AM

      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2:9; 3:9



      Since the whole Church is represented by the innumerable multitude and the
      two groups are clearly distinguished, I don't think it likely that the
      144,000 would also represent the Church. The rest of the book seems to be
      against that.



      george

      gfsomsel

      _________



      ----- Original Message ----

      From: jonknewton <jonknewton@yahoo. com.au>

      To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com

      Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:50:34 AM

      Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2:9; 3:9



      Two brief comments:

      Some commentators see the 144,000 as another way of viewing the whole

      church, i.e. under the image of the ancient Israelite tribes numbered

      for battle, which helps explain their virginity, etc in ch.14. John

      hears the number 144,000 but then sees an innumerable multitude, just

      as in ch.5 he hears of the lion of Judah and sees the lamb as if

      slain, two images for the same reality. Bauckham has some good

      material on the militant imagery.



      The Jews of Rev.2:9 and 3:9 I agree are ethnic Jews, or more

      precisely, non-Christian synagogues, which may also include

      proselytes. By their rejection of the Messiah Jesus they become for

      John a synagogue of Satan.



      Jon Newton, Ph.D. cand.

      Tabor College NSW, Australia



      --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "drjenney2" <drjenney@.. .> wrote:

      >

      > I agree [ethnic Jews], though there is a related question here, still

      > unanswered in my own mind.

      >

      > The Apocalypse clearly understands the "people of God" to be comprised

      > of two groups: "the 144,000" ["ethnic Jews"] and the "great

      > multitude"[" from every nation.." (Gentiles)].

      >

      > My question is are these groups divided primarily by ethnicity or

      > covenant? That is, are the "144,000" comprised only of Jews "saved" in

      > the OT and the "great multitude" composed of everyone saved under the

      > new covenant [including Jews]? Or are the 144,000, all Jews,

      > irregardless of covenant, and the great multitude all Gentiles, again

      > irregardless of whether they were "saved" in the OT [like Naaman,

      > Rahab, etc.] or the NT?

      >

      > Anyone got any thoughts on this question?

      >

      > Tim Jenney

      > Adj. Prof, NT

      > Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando

      >



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