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866Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2:9; 3:9

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  • Robert Dalrymple
    Oct 13, 2006
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      I agree that the Jews in Rev 2:9 are ethnic jews. As for the two groups in Rev 7, I have recently published an Article in Biblica 86 (2005) 396-406 titled 'These are the Ones.' Here I argued that the two groups in Rev 7--the 144,000 and the innumerable multitude--are indeed the same based on literary and thematic issues.

      Rob Dalrymple


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:41:36 AM
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2:9; 3:9

      Since the whole Church is represented by the innumerable multitude and the two groups are clearly distinguished, I don't think it likely that the 144,000 would also represent the Church. The rest of the book seems to be against that.

      george
      gfsomsel
      _________

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: jonknewton <jonknewton@yahoo. com.au>
      To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 2:50:34 AM
      Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Rev 2:9; 3:9

      Two brief comments:
      Some commentators see the 144,000 as another way of viewing the whole
      church, i.e. under the image of the ancient Israelite tribes numbered
      for battle, which helps explain their virginity, etc in ch.14. John
      hears the number 144,000 but then sees an innumerable multitude, just
      as in ch.5 he hears of the lion of Judah and sees the lamb as if
      slain, two images for the same reality. Bauckham has some good
      material on the militant imagery.

      The Jews of Rev.2:9 and 3:9 I agree are ethnic Jews, or more
      precisely, non-Christian synagogues, which may also include
      proselytes. By their rejection of the Messiah Jesus they become for
      John a synagogue of Satan.

      Jon Newton, Ph.D. cand.
      Tabor College NSW, Australia

      --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "drjenney2" <drjenney@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > I agree [ethnic Jews], though there is a related question here, still
      > unanswered in my own mind.
      >
      > The Apocalypse clearly understands the "people of God" to be comprised
      > of two groups: "the 144,000" ["ethnic Jews"] and the "great
      > multitude"[" from every nation.." (Gentiles)].
      >
      > My question is are these groups divided primarily by ethnicity or
      > covenant? That is, are the "144,000" comprised only of Jews "saved" in
      > the OT and the "great multitude" composed of everyone saved under the
      > new covenant [including Jews]? Or are the 144,000, all Jews,
      > irregardless of covenant, and the great multitude all Gentiles, again
      > irregardless of whether they were "saved" in the OT [like Naaman,
      > Rahab, etc.] or the NT?
      >
      > Anyone got any thoughts on this question?
      >
      > Tim Jenney
      > Adj. Prof, NT
      > Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
      >

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