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1235RE: [revelation-list] Rev 15:2

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  • Ross Winkle
    May 30 9:39 PM
      The point I was making was that the number “six” does not appear three times in succession (e.g., “the thrice-repeated six”) in 13:18. Where is the number six repeated three times in the Greek? It is not in P47, and I do not see that succession of the number “six” three times (either spelled out or in the use of Greek letters) in any of the mss listed.

      Ross Winkle

      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Timothy Jenney
      Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:11 PM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Rev 15:2



      I agree with George Somsel here.

      Here is a more complete list of witnesses and variants for this reading at Rev. 13:18:

      S 0 εξακοσιοι εξηκοντα εξ A02
      1 χ ξ ϛ P47 051 69 424 1773 1957 2259 2494 2495 2845 MT TR
      1 O εξακοσιαι εξηκοντα εξ ℵ01 1006
      1 O εξακοσια εξηκοντα εξ 1854
      R 2 εξακοσιαι δεκα εξ C04
      R 2 η χ ι ϛ P115✱
      R 2 χ ι ϛ P115c
      99 lacunae P18 P24 P43 P85 P98 0229 0308 2408 2493

      CNTTS Apparatus. The Center for New Testament Textual Studies NT Critical Apparatus
      © 2010 by the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
      Electronic text hypertexted and prepared by OakTree Software, Inc.
      Version 6.0

      Blessings,
      Timothy P. Jenney


      On May 30, 2013, at 2:05 PM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...<mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com>> wrote:

      > I'm afraid you are mistaken.
      > 18 ωδε η σοφια εστιν ο εχων ουν ψηφισατω τον αριθμον του
      > θηριου αριθμος γαρ ανθρωπου εστιν εστιν δε χ̅ξ̅ϛ̅
      >
      > P47 dated to the 2nd half of the 3rd cent in
      > Comfort, Philip Wesley and David P. Barrett. The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House, 2001.
      >
      > george
      >
      > gfsomsel
      >
      > search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
      > love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > defend the truth till death.
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      > …
      >
      > >________________________________
      > > From: Ross Winkle <rwinkle@...<mailto:rwinkle%40puc.edu>>
      > >To: "revelation-list@yahoogroups.com<mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>" <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com<mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > >Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 10:43 AM
      > >Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Rev 15:2
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >The number in Rev 13:18 is not six three times, despite what a number of commentators say. It is six hundred sixty six. It was either written out in Greek that way, or with letters that represented our numbers 600, 60, and 6. So there is no “three” of anything. Consequently, it does not refer to the trinity, and it would seem a stretch to connect it to the sixth day of creation (since the number is neither “six” nor three sixes).
      > >
      > >[20130508-143248Z30uga0832baA]
      > >
      > >From: mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
      > >Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:04 AM
      > >To: mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Rev 15:2
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >The number 666 has nothing to do with Nero. Attempts to make it fit Nero require first that, while the author has been writing in Greek, we must now switch to Hebrew. Secondly, in order to make the number come out correctly a final nun must be added to the name. I don't see any author relying on such machinations in order to convey his thought. How would the reader be expected to know that suddenly he must resort to another language? How would the reader know that he must resort to an exceedingly unusual form of the name in order to make the number fit?
      > >
      > >Your conjecture regarding the number 6 as signifying incompleteness has more to recommend it; however, I think it has to do with the fact that man was created on the 6th day according to the creation account in Genesis. It is specifically noted that ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστίν. While Greek has a definite article, it has no indefinite article so that in translation we must sometimes supply one in order to make a tolerably good translation. This means that we may end up supplying an indefinite article when we should not do so. In 8.13 our author writes ἤκουσα ἑνὸς ἀετοῦ πετομένου ἐν μεσουρανήματι to indicate a single eagle as opposed to 12.14 where the author specifies (one) particular eagle καὶ ἐδόθησαν τῇ γυναικὶ αἱ δύο πτέρυγες τοῦ ἀετοῦ τοῦ μεγάλου. What he is conveying here then is not "A man", but simply
      > >"man" as in mankind. The thrice repeated 6 is in keeping with the trinitarian view of our author who speaks of "the one seated on the throne" and of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world and of the Seven Spirits before the throne in contrast to the Dragon, the first Beast from the sea and the 2nd beast from the land. This is to depict man's attempt to elevate himself to the status of godhood as being the ultimate evil.
      > >
      > >george
      > >gfsomsel
      > >
      > >search for truth, hear truth,
      > >learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > >defend the truth till death.
      > >
      > >- Jan Hus
      > >_________
      > >…
      > >
      > >>________________________________
      > >> From: Dustin Smith <mailto:kggospel%40gmail.com<mailto:kggospel%40gmail.com<mailto:kggospel%40gmail.com%3cmailto:kggospel%40gmail.com>>>
      > >>To: mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com<mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com%3cmailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > >>Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:56 AM
      > >>Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Rev 15:2
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>Dave, I like you line of thinking and the progression that it seems to
      > >>bring to the text. Very insightful.
      > >>
      > >>I reason for my original post is because I am writing my dissertation on
      > >>how the original readers would have understood the mandate to conquer,
      > >>especially in light of the fact that the Lamb radically redefines nikao
      > >>from how everyone else in the Roman Empire understood conquering. Believers
      > >>are told seven times in the letters that they are to conquer if they want
      > >>to take part in the eschatological rewards. So my question was, how do they
      > >>conquer in 15:2?
      > >>
      > >>I personally see Revelation as written in the 90s CE by John the prophet.
      > >>I'm not convinced that 666 would have been initially understood by the
      > >>readers as Nero, for the number six seems to be one short of seven (a
      > >>regular number of completion in Rev.). Triple six means three times
      > >>incomplete, revealing that the beast is not as great as he might seem ("Who
      > >>is like the beast?").
      > >>
      > >>This is just a working hypothesis. I am still wrestling with how the
      > >>readers would have responded to the mandate to conquer in 15:2. Thanks
      > >>again for your contribution.
      > >>
      > >>Dustin
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 2:13 PM, David Brubaker <mailto:dave%40davidbrubaker.info<mailto:dave%40davidbrubaker.info<mailto:dave%40davidbrubaker.info%3cmailto:dave%40davidbrubaker.info>>>wrote:
      > >>
      > >>> **
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> Quoting Dustin Smith <mailto:kggospel%40gmail.com<mailto:kggospel%40gmail.com<mailto:kggospel%40gmail.com%3cmailto:kggospel%40gmail.com>>>:
      > >>>
      > >>> > Just trying to get some opinions here:
      > >>> >
      > >>> > *"And I saw ....those who were conquering over the beast and his image
      > >>> and
      > >>> > the number of his name" *(Rev 15:2)
      > >>>
      > >>> >
      > >>> > How would John have expected his first century readers to respond
      > >>> > appropriately to this verse? How does one conquer the beast, his image,
      > >>> and
      > >>> > 666?
      > >>> >
      > >>> > --
      > >>> > Dustin Smith
      > >>> >
      > >>>
      > >>> I'm a bit late to this discussion, but here are a few thoughts to toss
      > >>> in. First, in response to your actual question (How does one conquer
      > >>> the beast?), I think the answer is likely to depend on how one
      > >>> interprets the beast.
      > >>>
      > >>> I'm curious if anyone thinks any of the following ideas make sense. In
      > >>> my rather unusual view of Revelation, that little scene in 15:1-4 is
      > >>> very interesting because it's a nexus of several meaningful sequences
      > >>> and progressions of related but changing events and conditions. These
      > >>> sequences and progressions develop themes of increasingly
      > >>> sophisticated spiritual understanding as the Revelation story moves
      > >>> forward.
      > >>>
      > >>> Here are the progressions that I see intersecting in this little scene:
      > >>>
      > >>> The sea of glass sequence:
      > >>> -------------------------------
      > >>> In chapter 4, the first scene of heaven, John sees God and His throne
      > >>> on the other side of the sea of glass, which is before the throne. In
      > >>> New Jerusalem, there is no sea of glass. The statement, "Also there
      > >>> was no more sea" (21:1) may be a cryptic way to point out the absence
      > >>> of the sea of glass. 15:2 is a transitional element of the story,
      > >>> midway between the two scenes of heaven, showing what happens to the
      > >>> sea of glass. The people who have victory over the beast are on the
      > >>> sea of glass, now mingled with fire.
      > >>>
      > >>> In my view, these people are crossing the sea of glass because they
      > >>> love God enough that they want to be closer to Him, with Him, rather
      > >>> than on the other side of the sea that separates them from Him. In New
      > >>> Jerusalem, God "will dwell with men" (21:3) and "They shall see His
      > >>> face" (22:4). In fact, therein is a surprising Biblical allusion that
      > >>> is split between the two scenes of heaven. In chapter 4, John sees God
      > >>> across the sea of glass, on the other side of the sea of
      > >>> separation--"Now we see through a glass darkly..." Then in New
      > >>> Jerusalem (22:4), "They see His face."--"But then face to face."
      > >>>
      > >>> So the sequence is this: (1.) In the first heaven, the sea of glass is
      > >>> a gulf of separation between God and people. (2.) Some people cross
      > >>> the gulf of separation to get closer to God, to be with God. (3.) New
      > >>> Jerusalem: Sea of separation is gone, God and people are close, people
      > >>> see God face to face. (Note: This sequence is one part of a much
      > >>> larger progression of God and people coming closer together.)
      > >>>
      > >>> Songs of praise sequence:
      > >>> ------------------------------
      > >>> A series of songs of praise to God gradually changes through the
      > >>> Revelation story to show increasing understanding and appreciation of
      > >>> God, adding various virtues and some ways that God benefits people.
      > >>>
      > >>> The series begins in 4:8 and praises God only for being holy and
      > >>> eternal. 4:11 adds glory, honor, power, and creation to the aspects of
      > >>> God being praised. 5:9-10 adds sacrifice and redemption. 5:12 adds
      > >>> riches, wisdom, strength, and blessing. (5:13 is a separate song from
      > >>> 5:12, but doesn't add anything new.) 7:12 adds thanksgiving to a list
      > >>> of previously mentioned aspects, but doesn't say anything about what
      > >>> they're thanking God for. 11:17-18 clarifies thanksgiving by thanking
      > >>> God for His upcoming judgment. 15:3-4 (the song of the people on the
      > >>> sea of glass mingled with fire) adds great and marvelous works and
      > >>> just and true ways, and also says that His judgments have now been
      > >>> manifested, rather than being about to be manifested as in 11:7-8.
      > >>> 16:5-6 adds that God is righteous. Finally, the series of praises in
      > >>> 19:1-7 becomes a full-on joyous celebration of the Lamb's coming
      > >>> wedding.
      > >>>
      > >>> The wrath of God:
      > >>> ---------------------
      > >>> The three plague series (seals, trumpets, bowls) have an interesting
      > >>> series of statements about the wrath of God. In the seals (6:16-17),
      > >>> it tells us that His wrath has come and people try to hide from the
      > >>> wrath of the Lamb, but it doesn't say anything at all about why God
      > >>> and/or the Lamb are angry. Then in the trumpets (9:20-21) it tells us
      > >>> about the people not repenting from their various sins, and that seems
      > >>> to be the reason for God's wrath. Then in our scene (15:1) in the
      > >>> introduction to the bowls, it tells us that the wrath of God is
      > >>> completed and done in the bowls. In other words, the three series of
      > >>> plagues have three separate and distinctive viewpoints on the wrath of
      > >>> God. Hmmmm.
      > >>>
      > >>> Any thoughts? Am I delusional?
      > >>>
      > >>> Dave
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>--
      > >>Dustin Smith
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>------------------------------------
      > >>
      > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
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