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1189Re: [revelation-list] Re: Hermas and the Tribulation Beast

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  • George F Somsel
    Jan 17, 2011
      No, you are not attempting to understand these things as the early christians
      did.  The view of Hermas regarding the beast is not that of the Apocalypse
      concerning the Beast.  I have indicated that such is the case by highlighting
      points at which they diverge.  Your continued attempt to impose Hermas on the
      Apocalypse will not survive scrutiny.


      … search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus

      From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 8:34:45 AM
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Hermas and the Tribulation Beast


      Very good. I understand these are modern objections, but I am trying to
      understand these things as the early Christians did. Please read this second
      century document very carefully.

      >>The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, Chapter XII.—The importance of knowledge
      >>to true spiritual life.

      When you have read and carefully listened to these things, you shall know what
      God bestows on such as rightly love Him, being made [as ye are] a paradise of
      delight, presenting in yourselves a tree bearing all kinds of produce and
      flourishing well, being adorned with various fruits. For in this place the tree
      of knowledge and the tree of life have been planted; but it is not the tree of
      knowledge that destroys— it is disobedience that proves destructive. Nor truly
      are those words without significance which are written, how God from the
      beginning planted the tree of life in the midst of paradise, revealing through
      knowledge the way to life, and when those who were first formed did not use this
      [knowledge] properly, they were, through the fraud of the Serpent, stripped
      naked. For neither can life exist without knowledge, nor is knowledge secure
      without life. Wherefore both were planted close together. The Apostle,
      perceiving the force [of this conjunction], and blaming that knowledge which,
      without true doctrine, is admitted to influence life, [1 Cor. 8:1.] declares,
      "Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth." For he who thinks he knows anything
      without true knowledge, and such as is witnessed to by life, knows nothing, but
      is deceived by the Serpent, as not loving life. But he who combines knowledge
      with fear, and seeks after life, plants in hope, looking for fruit. Let your
      heart be your wisdom; and let your life be true knowledge inwardly received.
      Bearing this tree and displaying its fruit, thou shalt always gather in those
      things which are desired by God, which the Serpent cannot reach, and to which
      deception does not approach; nor is Eve then corrupted, but is trusted as a
      virgin; and salvation is manifested, and the Apostles are filled with
      understanding, and the Passover [Rev. 5:9., Rev. 19:7., Rev. 20:5.] of the Lord
      advances, and the choirs [1 Pet. 5:3], are gathered together, and are arranged
      in proper order, and the Word rejoices in teaching the saints,—by whom the
      Father is glorified: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.<<

      Here are some second century comments showing how the early Christians viewed
      antichrist and the Apocalypse.

      >>If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he
      >>shall go into captivity [Rev 13:10]. If any shall slay with the sword, he must
      >>be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints."
      >>[Rev. 13:2, etc.] After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he
      >>also terms a false prophet: "He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power
      >>of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell
      >>therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall
      >>perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven
      >>upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the
      >>earth astray."
      Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter XXVIII
      4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may
      avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it
      is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been
      declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But
      now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss [Rev 9:2, 20:1] ,
      and goes into perdition," [Rev. 17:8] as one who has no existence; so neither
      has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not
      proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this
      world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at
      Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory
      of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire;
      but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest,
      the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in
      which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the
      west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

      Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter XXX.
      3. If any one, again, will look into Jacob's actions, he shall find them not
      destitute of meaning, but full of import with regard to the dispensations. Thus,
      in the first place, at his birth, since he laid hold on his brother's heel,
      [Gen. 25:26]. he was called Jacob, that is, the supplanter—one who holds, but is
      not held; binding the feet, but not being bound; striving and conquering;
      grasping in his hand his adversary's heel, that is, victory. For to this end was
      the Lord born, the type of whose birth he set forth beforehand, of whom also
      John says in the Apocalypse: "He went forth conquering, that He should conquer."
      [Rev. 6:2.]
      Irenaeus, Book IV, Chapter XXI.<<

      The ancients saw order and meaning in the universe, and expected the same things
      in scripture.

      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      > I hardly think that Hermas' beast is the least bit comparable to that of
      > Revelation.  In Revelation a counter-Judaism is established and penalties are

      > imposed for non-conformance.  In Hermas the beast does not oppose Hermas, but
      > simply turns into a pussy-cat.
      > And I went on a lit

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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