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1056Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • charles.larkin@saintleo.edu
    Feb 8, 2009
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      It may be a mistake to adopt an exclusively Judaeo-centric
      approach to
      Revelation in particular and the NT in general.

      One of the very earliest NT writings was addressed, after
      all, not to Jews
      but to a Celtic people, i.e., Paul's Letter to the

      The Galatians also boasted "twelve tribes," three for
      each of the four tetrarchies in Galatia.

      As for I Peter, there is no evidence for the historical
      existence of ANY Jewish communities in Galatia --
      although there is evidence for Jewish communties in Asia,
      Pontus, Cappadocia and (perhaps)
      Bithynia. So whose "disperson" are we speaking of here?

      The Celtic "dispersion" throughout the Mediterranean and
      larger Roman world was co-extensive
      (and larger by far) with that of the Jews. NT scholarship
      fixates on the Hebrew/Hellenic sources of
      early Christianity -- while ignoring at its peril the the
      enormous Celtic elephant in the room!

      Since contemporary Jewish scholarship is unanimous in
      rejecting the idea that the Galileans
      were ethnic Jews, the only alternative is that the
      Galileans were of gentile origin. Their name,
      "Galilaioi," would have suggested Celtic origins to a
      Graeco-Roman audience, and what we know
      of Galilean ethnography from Josephus is compatible with
      Celtic ethnography in the ancient sources.

      Celts were widely dispersed throughout the Middle East
      from the time of Alexander as mercenaries.
      They were well-known in Ptolemeic Egypt up to Roman times
      and beyond. Many of the Roman legions
      in the 1st century were levied from Gaul and Galatia, and
      Celtic forces under Roman rule were central
      to Vespasian's war againt the Jews and in securing the
      destruction of Jerusalem under Titus in AD 70.

      Yet this well-attested Celtic presence remains ignored in
      NT scholarship.

      This brings us back to Solomon Zeitlin's question of more
      than a quarter century ago:
      "Who Were the Galileans?" (Jewish Quarterly Review, 1974;
      65: pp. 189-203)

      Historians and NT scholars have yet to provide an adequate
      answer to this most
      fundamental question of Christian origins.

      Charles Gerard Larkin
      Faculty of Philosophy and Theology
      Saint Leo University (USA)

      On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 15:31:02 -0800 (PST)
      George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      > I hardly think that the author of the Epistle of James
      >or that of First Peter were writing to Israelites
      > 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
      > To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion:
      > Greetings.
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jas
      >1:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      > 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
      > To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia,
      >Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
      >and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the
      >Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled
      >with his blood:
      > May grace and peace be yours in abundance.
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1
      >Pe 1:1-2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      > Also note that the author of the Apocalypse
      >speaks regarding the Jews in 3.9 as "I will make those of
      >the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are
      >not, but are lying."  The 144,000 of chapter 7 are said
      >to have "his name and his Father’s name written on their
      >foreheads" (14.1) and "they sing the song of Moses, the
      >servant of God, and the song of the Lamb."  Thus it
      >would appear that the OT saints and the Church together
      >form the People of God.
      > … search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the
      > defend the truth till death.
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      > ________________________________
      >From: drjenney2 <drjenney@...>
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, February 8, 2009 5:56:08 PM
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff
      > I think you have made some good points here, but you are
      >being too
      > wooden with your approach.
      > The fact that the New Jerusalem has twelve gates need
      >not mean that
      > one must be an Israelite to enter, only that Israel has
      >provided the
      > entry [through its Messiah].
      > Then again, while 12 often carries the idea of
      >completeness, it need
      > not always refer to the twelve tribes (="all Israel).
      >The New
      > Jerusalem is probably a cube because the Holy of Holies
      >was a cube.
      > That its sides are 12 units long may simply mean it that
      >it is
      > "perfectly holy."
      > I'm personally convinced the Great Whore in Revelation
      >is Rome. It's
      > "secret name" came from the letters of its "Roma"
      >reversed: "Amore."
      > Yet it represents not romantic love, but unrestrained
      > I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.
      > Yes, there are symbols in Revelation. It requires as
      >much art in its
      > interpretation as it does correct exegetical technique.
      >Both must vary
      > with the various literary genres contained in
      >Revelation, for the book
      > is not all of a single genre.
      > Hope this helps!
      > "Dr. J"
      > Timothy P. Jenney, Ph. D.
      > Regent Unversity
      > Moderator
      > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, "biblestudy"
      ><biblestudy@ ...>
      > wrote:
      >> Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea
      >>of "12
      > Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places
      >in Revelation.
      > Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow
      >through interpreting
      > all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a
      > exegetical model that would say some references are
      >symbolic and some
      > literal. This would open the door again to the
      >Pretribulation school
      > methodology which does just that.
      >> For example:
      >> 12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22
      >>- the 12
      > gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city
      >one has to be a
      > member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly
      >the bride of
      > Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation,
      >not just
      > Israelites.
      >> That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is
      >>shown by the
      > fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube,
      >thus having 12
      > edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000
      >stadia. Hence
      > a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number
      >as we find in
      > Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000
      >Israelites" is
      > clearly intended to be symbolic.
      >> Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are
      >>ference to the
      > church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It
      >seems strange
      > exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.
      >> As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I
      >>admit the
      > harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the
      >time of Christ
      > but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great
      >mistake. The
      > Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called
      >Babylon because it
      > began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is
      >a typical OT
      > symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over
      >all the
      > gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile
      >system, not as
      > Jewish one.
      >> If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us
      >>with then we
      > are just guessing out of our own minds.
      >> Yours
      >> John B
      > .
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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