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1052Re: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

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  • biblestudy
    Feb 8, 2009
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      Can't see it myself. It is clear that "Israel", the idea of "12 Tribes" "temple" "Jerusalem" are all symbolic in places in Revelation. Exegetical integrity would demand that one follow through interpreting all references in a symbolic way. It seems to me to be a strange exegetical model that would say some references are symbolic and some literal. This would open the door again to the Pretribulation school methodology which does just that.

      For example:
      12 tribes is clearly meant to be symbolical in Rev 21,22 - the 12 gates. What it is saying is that to get into the city one has to be a member of one of the 12 tribes. But the city is clearly the bride of Christ, the church, made up of people of every nation, not just Israelites.
      That "Tribes" is symbolical elsewhere in Revelation is shown by the fact that the new Jerusalem is represented as a cube, thus having 12 edges, or outside perimeters, each one measuring 12,000 stadia. Hence a total external measurement of 144,000, the same number as we find in Rev 7 and 14 concerning the "12 tribes". Again "144,000 Israelites" is clearly intended to be symbolic.

      Same thing happens with "temple" whichis clearly are ference to the church in Rev 3 "make him a pillar in the temple..." It seems strange exegesis to then make "temple" literal in Chapter 11.

      As for the harlot being Jerusalem - or even Rome - I admit the harlot system was alive and well in those cities at the time of Christ but to limit it to those literal cities would be a great mistake. The Harlot system is with us all the time. It is called Babylon because it began in Babel. But it rules over "7 mountains" which is a typical OT symbol for "empire", and "7" means "totality" i.e. over all the gentile empires. The harlot system is thus a Gentile system, not as Jewish one.

      If we don't use the clues to symbolism John provides us with then we are just guessing out of our own minds.

      John B

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: jonknewton
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:52 PM
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Rev 2-3 and Rev 4ff

      I think your approach has a lot of strengths, though it doesn't
      explain everything about Revelation (but which one approach ever can?)

      However, it is susceptible to being used to support anti-semitism. How
      do you suggest this be avoided?

      Do you see features in the text that would guard against this?
      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, KennethGentry@... wrote:
      > IÂ have noticed something which is distinctive to my
      redemptive-historical preterism and which brings out a strong
      relationship between chs 2-3 and the rest of Revelation. In the seven
      letters we have two important references: Rev 2:9 and 3:9. Both
      denounce the Jews, calling the Jewish synagogue a "synagogue of Satan"
      (cp. Jn 8:44). These tie in with Revelation's theme and flow.
      > Â
      > I see Revelation as paralleling in sentiment the Epistle to the
      Hebrews. Both show the passing away of the old covenant order (cp. Heb
      8:13; 12:25-29) and the coming of Christianity as the New Jerusalem
      (Heb 12:23), with the first century Christians under persecution (Heb.
      10:32-33). Both are concerned with potential apostasy under this pressure.
      > Â
      > I hold that John establishes the overall theme of Revelation in Rev.
      1:7. That theme regards Christ's judgment-coming against the "tribes
      of the Land" (the Jews) for crucifying Christ (Mt 26:59, 66; 27:1; Mk
      14:64; Lk 23:22-23; 24:20; Lk 24:20; Acts 2:22-23, 36; 3:13-15a; 4:10;
      5:28, 30; 7:52; 10:39; 13:27-29; Ac 26:10; 1 Thess. 2:14-15). This
      coming of Christ is a metaphorical coming, a providential historical
      judgment (as in Isa 19:1). This theme verse (uniquely) parallels Matt
      24:30, which is in Christ's discourse on the AD 70 destruction of the
      Temple (Matt. 24:1-2, 16). Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 are speaking of the
      same historical event: AD 70.
      > Â
      > The "Land dwellers" (aka "earth dwellers") are the non-Christian
      Jews who live in the Land. As Revelation unfolds, those sl
      > ain "in the Land" are the Jewish Christians in Israel (e.g.
      6:10-11). The sea beast (Rome/Nero) is locked in a relationship with
      the land beast (the Jewish high priestly aristocracy) against the
      Christians (cp. Jn 19:12, 15; cp. Mt 27:25). And behind them both is
      Satan (remember: Rev 2:9; 3:9 at this point).
      > Â
      > The NT is filled with references to Israelâ?Ts persecution of
      Christians: Mt 10:17; Mt 23:37ff.; Ac 4:1-3, 15-18; 5:17-18, 27-33,
      40; 6:12-15; 7:54-60; 8:1; 9:1-4, 13, 21, 23, 29; 12:1-3; 13:45-50;
      14:2-5, 19; 17:5-8, 13; 18:6, 12, 17; 20:3, 19; 21:11, 27-32;Â
      22:3-5, 22-23; 23:12, 20-21; 24:5-9, 27; 25:2-15; 25:24; 26:21;
      28:17-29; Ro 15:31; 2Co 11:24; Gal 6:12 Heb 10:33-34. Note also (for
      one extra-biblical example): Eusebius (Eccl. Hist. 3:5:2): â?oFor the
      Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime
      against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against
      his apostles.�
      > Â
      > The harlot is Jerusalem (cp. Jer 3). She sits upon the sea beast
      (17:3), showing her relationship with Rome against the Christians
      (e.g., Acts 9:1-2; cp. Gal 4:24-26). She is drunk with the blood of
      the Jewish Christian saints (Rev 17:6; cp. Matt 23:32-37).
      > Â
      > As the harlot and false prophet are destroyed in the latter
      chapters, the new Jerusalem (Christianity) comes down out of heaven
      (cp. Gal 4:24-26; Heb. 12:23) to forever replace her as God's wife.
      > Â
      > Thus, John is putting on the mantle of an OT prophet in denouncing
      corrupt Israel (cp. Isa
      > 1; Jer 3; etc.). And consequently, the statements in Rev 2:9 and 3:9
      (there are others in those letters that also confirm this approach)
      link with the theme of Revelation and its flow and development.
      > Â
      > Obviously this approach will raise a lot of questions (objections).
      I am currently working on a commentary that should be about 1000
      pages: The Divorce of Israel: A Redemptive-Historical Commentary on
      > Ken Gentry
      > Â
      > Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.M., Th.D.
      > Director, NiceneCouncil.Com
      > __________________________________________________________
      > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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