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Re: [rest-discuss] Help with REST Advocacy

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  • Walden Mathews
    Andrew, Your developers on the client side might like exploring your service with nothing more than a browser and some stylesheet transformations. Very best of
    Message 1 of 11 , May 28, 2005
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      Andrew,

      Your developers on the client side might like exploring
      your service with nothing more than a browser and some
      stylesheet transformations.

      Very best of luck.

      Walden

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Andrew Hallam" <ahallam@...>
      To: "Walden Mathews" <waldenm@...>
      Cc: <rest-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2005 5:36 PM
      Subject: Re: [rest-discuss] Help with REST Advocacy


      : Hi Walden,
      :
      : > Build a prototype of your proposed implementation, show
      : > it to them, and let them choose.
      :
      : Thanks. That actually has a chance of working because the developers who
      : have to use the web service are from an external company, have no SOAP
      : experience, and have a bit of influence in how things get done.
      :
      : > You will probably still lose
      : > the battle, but it beats arguing religion hands down.
      :
      : Thanks for the confidence boost! :-)
      :
      : Here's the chain of influence that I'm working against.
      :
      : 1. My client has large investment in software from a major GIS[1] vendor.
      :
      : 2. This vendor has released a new "enterprise platform" product which is
      : "web service enabled". In reality, nothing in that product itself
      : provides web services. You have to use Visual Studio, Apache Axis or
      : equivalent to create the SOAP bindings.
      :
      : 3. Sales and technical people from the vendor are talking up web
      : services acronyms (SOAP, WSDL and UDDI) without actually knowing much
      : about them except that they are "industry standards" for
      : "interoperability" (the vendor is pushing the open and interop line
      : lately). When challenged, especially on UDDI, all I got was blank looks
      : and responses summarised by "it's the latest thing" and "everyone is
      : doing it".
      :
      : 4. The software developer likes to learn new things that are good for
      : their resume and which the tools make easy to *deliver*. They understand
      : how to call a procedure, so SOAP is the "natural" choice. I suggested
      : HTTP GET early on and was ignored.
      :
      : To win this battle I have to break the dependency on Visual Studio and
      : get them to think about good design. That's going to be difficult.
      :
      : Andrew
      :
      : [1] Geographic Information System
      :
      :
      :
      :
      : Yahoo! Groups Links
      :
      :
      :
      :
      :
      :
      :
      : __________ NOD32 1.1112 (20050527) Information __________
      :
      : This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
      : http://www.nod32.com
      :
      :
    • Andrew Hallam
      Hi Walden, ... You were right. I m covered in bubbles, and it ain t pretty. So what did I learn? (This is probably not news to anyone on rest-discuss, and I m
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2005
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        Hi Walden,

        > Build a prototype of your proposed implementation, show
        > it to them, and let them choose. You will probably still
        > lose the battle, but it beats arguing religion hands down.

        You were right. I'm covered in bubbles, and it ain't pretty.

        So what did I learn? (This is probably not news to anyone on
        rest-discuss, and I'm feeling slightly cynical at this point in time.)

        1. Some developers do not understand HTTP, URIs or the concept of
        resources, but they understand function calls.

        2. Some developers do not understand XML, and do not want to learn it.
        Therefore expecting them to use a REST style and XML resources for
        services is futile.

        3. When using SOAP some developers initially expect to not have to
        understand the details, and they will do their best to avoid
        understanding XML, SOAP, XSD, WSDL, etc. But, sooner or later they are
        going to have to understand the XML that is moving across the wire and
        understand how to get their SOAP toolkit to produce the required interface.

        4. Unless someone has the authority to impose a particular architectural
        style the developers will use the development tools that promise to make
        their life easier and which will look good on their resume.

        Ah well...

        Andrew
      • Jon Hanna
        ... That s the big one IMO. SOAP has been sold via selling certain development frameworks that make big promises in this regard. -- Regards, Jon Hanna …if
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 2, 2005
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          Andrew Hallam wrote:
          > 3. When using SOAP some developers initially expect to not have to
          > understand the details, and they will do their best to avoid
          > understanding XML, SOAP, XSD, WSDL, etc. But, sooner or later they are
          > going to have to understand the XML that is moving across the wire and
          > understand how to get their SOAP toolkit to produce the required interface.

          That's the big one IMO. SOAP has been sold via selling certain
          development frameworks that make big promises in this regard.

          --
          Regards,
          Jon Hanna

          "…if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably not a
          ConceptualWork about a duck." - Mark Baker
        • Jan Algermissen
          ... Coming late to this thread and maybe OT, but reading this, I thought that a fundamental problem with REST is how to get the paradigm shift (and the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 2, 2005
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            On Jun 2, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Andrew Hallam wrote:

            > 4. Unless someone has the authority to impose a particular
            > architectural
            > style the developers will use the development tools that promise to
            > make
            > their life easier and which will look good on their resume.
            >

            Coming late to this thread and maybe OT, but reading this, I thought
            that
            a fundamental problem with REST is how to get the paradigm shift (and
            the
            required mental rewiring) into the developer mainstream?

            I read a lot about domain driven development recently and
            interestingly one
            fundamental issue there explicitly is to 'find the nouns'. In fact,
            pattterns
            like 'Strategy' (to make business logic nouns instead of conditional
            application
            flow) suit 'RESTful development' very natuarally. So maybe that is a
            way to get
            the mainstream developers on the boat? Sort of bringing REST in
            through the back
            door (e.g. make the uniform API etc. just another OO pattern). Hmm...

            Jan


            ________________________________________________________________________
            ____________________
            Jan Algermissen, Consultant & Programmer
            http://jalgermissen.com
            Tugboat Consulting, 'Applying Web technology to enterprise IT'
            http://www.tugboat.de
          • Jeoff Wilks
            ... Just by renaming it from REST Architecture to The REST Pattern you could have an army of pattern-crazed J2EE developers clamoring to learn it.... :)
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 2, 2005
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              > Sort of bringing REST in through the back door
              > (e.g. make the uniform API etc. just another OO pattern). Hmm...

              Just by renaming it from "REST Architecture" to "The REST Pattern" you could have an army of pattern-crazed J2EE developers clamoring to learn it....   :)


              On 6/2/05, Jan Algermissen <jalgermissen@...> wrote:

              On Jun 2, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Andrew Hallam wrote:

              > 4. Unless someone has the authority to impose a particular
              > architectural
              > style the developers will use the development tools that promise to
              > make
              > their life easier and which will look good on their resume.
              >

              Coming late to this thread and maybe OT, but reading this, I thought
              that
              a fundamental problem with REST is how to get the paradigm shift (and
              the
              required mental rewiring) into the developer mainstream?

              I read a lot about domain driven development recently and
              interestingly one
              fundamental issue there explicitly is to 'find the nouns'. In fact,
              pattterns
              like 'Strategy' (to make business logic nouns instead of conditional
              application
              flow) suit 'RESTful development' very natuarally. So maybe that is a
              way to get
              the mainstream developers on the boat? Sort of bringing REST in
              through the back
              door (e.g. make the uniform API etc. just another OO pattern). Hmm...

              Jan


              ________________________________________________________________________
              ____________________
              Jan Algermissen, Consultant & Programmer
              http://jalgermissen.com
              Tugboat Consulting, 'Applying Web technology to enterprise IT'
              http://www.tugboat.de







              Yahoo! Groups Links

              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/

              <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  rest-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





            • S. Mike Dierken
              Ahh, good idea. I think I ll try that at work. Architecture is such a cold word... pattern is much more cozy... ... From: Jeoff Wilks To:
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 2, 2005
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                Ahh, good idea. I think I'll try that at work. Architecture is such a cold word... 'pattern' is much more cozy...
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:42 AM
                Subject: Re: [rest-discuss] Help with REST Advocacy

                > Sort of bringing REST in through the back door
                > (e.g. make the uniform API etc. just another OO pattern). Hmm...

                Just by renaming it from "REST Architecture" to "The REST Pattern" you could have an army of pattern-crazed J2EE developers clamoring to learn it....   :)


                On 6/2/05, Jan Algermissen <jalgermissen@...> wrote:

                On Jun 2, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Andrew Hallam wrote:

                > 4. Unless someone has the authority to impose a particular
                > architectural
                > style the developers will use the development tools that promise to
                > make
                > their life easier and which will look good on their resume.
                >

                Coming late to this thread and maybe OT, but reading this, I thought
                that
                a fundamental problem with REST is how to get the paradigm shift (and
                the
                required mental rewiring) into the developer mainstream?

                I read a lot about domain driven development recently and
                interestingly one
                fundamental issue there explicitly is to 'find the nouns'. In fact,
                pattterns
                like 'Strategy' (to make business logic nouns instead of conditional
                application
                flow) suit 'RESTful development' very natuarally. So maybe that is a
                way to get
                the mainstream developers on the boat? Sort of bringing REST in
                through the back
                door (e.g. make the uniform API etc. just another OO pattern). Hmm...

                Jan


                ________________________________________________________________________
                ____________________
                Jan Algermissen, Consultant & Programmer
                http://jalgermissen.com
                Tugboat Consulting, 'Applying Web technology to enterprise IT'
                http://www.tugboat.de







                Yahoo! Groups Links

                <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rest-discuss/

                <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    rest-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





              • S. Mike Dierken
                ... A uniform API actually is an OO pattern - it s called interface in Java. Examples are Collection, List, Map, Iterator, etc. REST is a set of design
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 2, 2005
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                  > So maybe that is a way to get
                  > the mainstream developers on the boat? Sort of bringing REST in
                  > through the back
                  > door (e.g. make the uniform API etc. just another OO pattern). Hmm...
                  A uniform API actually is an OO pattern - it's called 'interface' in Java.
                  Examples are Collection, List, Map, Iterator, etc.

                  REST is a set of design patterns for large scale networked applications.
                • Jan Algermissen
                  ... Yes...since I think a design pattern can be seens as a constraint on design (reducing the number of possible design decisions). This is close enough to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 3, 2005
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                    On Jun 3, 2005, at 7:24 AM, S. Mike Dierken wrote:
                    >
                    > REST is a set of design patterns for large scale networked
                    > applications.

                    Yes...since I think a design pattern can be seens as a constraint on
                    design (reducing the number of possible design decisions). This is
                    close enough to 'architectural constraint' to 'justify' the above
                    statement I think.

                    Jan


                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    ________________________________________________________________________
                    ____________________
                    Jan Algermissen, Consultant & Programmer
                    http://jalgermissen.com
                    Tugboat Consulting, 'Applying Web technology to enterprise IT'
                    http://www.tugboat.de
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