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Re: [reluctant-messenger] Was the Messiah forsaken by God?

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  • Elizabeth Winn
    PRAISE GOD! That was awesome !!! Thanks for sharing that realization!!! ... From: Josiah Draper To: thelostwarrior@gmx.net Sent: Wednesday, July 31,
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
      PRAISE GOD!   That was awesome   !!!    Thanks for sharing that realization!!!
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:32 PM
      Subject: [reluctant-messenger] Was the Messiah forsaken by God?

      The New Testament says in Matthew 27: 46 that, at the moment just prior to
      the death of the messiah on the cross, He called out to God, asking why God
      had forsaken Him. Is that what he really meant when He called to God?

      Somehave said that when he took upon the sin of the world, God turned away
      because he cannot look upon sin, and that the messiah was left to suffer
      alone. But that simply does not make sense, God does not abandon the
      righteous! (Deut. 4:31, 2 Chronicles 15:2, Psalms 37)

      When Yeshua said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", he was
      quoting Psalms 22:1, but he was reffering to all of Psalms 22, not just the
      first verse. He knew that his people would recognize the quote and would
      proceed to read the entire Psalm. Then would they realize what he was
      stating, he was stating that Psalms 22 prophecied of him. He was not stating
      that he had been abandoned by God.

      Psalms 22:16-19
      16  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
      they pierced my hands and my feet.
      17  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
      18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
      19  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help
      me.

      -Josiah

      Failures are divided into two classes--those who thought and never did, and
      those who did and never thought.
      -- John Charles Salak



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    • sunhousein@aol.com
      Yes that was very enlightening! Thanks Josiah
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
        Yes that was very enlightening!
        Thanks Josiah
      • privacy
        Is it true that the Father did NOT turn His head for the pain endured by the Son during the Atonement ? Do not the scriptures state Christ WAS left unto
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
          Is it true that the Father did NOT turn His head for the pain endured by the Son during the Atonement ?
          Do not the scriptures state Christ WAS left unto himself for a time ? WHEN he was left unto himself might be debatable since the Atonement didn't occur ON the Cross.

          While the below paradigm has merit, it is not the sole explanation. Remember, everything is a paradox, and at this point, if Christ could have called down Heaven to rescue Him from off the cross, then certainly He was capable enough of multi-tasking with a statement like this at such a critical point. So then, does the phrase, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me..." (presuming it is translated correctly, and it isn't) mean more than one thing ?

          When a child is little, their parents instruct them with dire importance to never cross the street. This is the 'reality' the child operates from despite their observation that their parents, as well as all other adults and many older kids, regularly contradict the 'truth' their parents told them. When a child gets older, they are given new instructions - that crossing the street is acceptable, but ONLY under very strict circumstances. THIS then becomes the child's 'reality' despite the fact that the previous gapping contradiction is narrowed somewhat. Eventually the child becomes an adult frequently crossing the street at will in absolute disobedience to the instructions they received as little children. Neither 'reality' is 'wrong' as long as the resolution for the apparent 'contradiction' is resolved, hence it is NO contradiction at all, but only a PARADOX.

          Now, the irony is that we are taught to trust Father in Heaven because He has unconditional love for us, so we associate this to mean that He would never 'forsake us' because of that love. However, our EXPERIENCE shows us that as long as we can NOT be 'forsaken', we are still children who have not come unto their own as co-equals/joint-heirs with God. It is ONLY when we are ready that we won't have to rely upon Father to help us cross the street ("When you are ready, Neo, you won't have to [dodge bullets]"). Even as a parent allows their child to 'fall' when learning to walk, this is NOT to be construed to be a failure or withdrawal of their love from that child; in fact, it's loving CONFIDENCE in them to progress unto adulthood. Of course, this type of 'forsaking' is PART of the unconditional love Father has for us. It is His trust in US to BE even as He is - perfect. In such there is no actual 'forsaking' even though at the moment of our 'fall', we might FEEL as if we had been 'forsaken' or 'abandoned'. Such a perspective is a delusion. Any 'forsaking' Christ endured is Father's trust in Him to pull-off the Atonement Himself.
           - Psalms - 

          Psalms Chapter 22

            לַמְנַצֵּחַ, עַל-אַיֶּלֶת הַשַּׁחַר;    מִזְמוֹר לְדָוִד. 1 For the Leader; upon Aijeleth ha-Shahar. A Psalm of David.
          ב  אֵלִי אֵלִי, לָמָה עֲזַבְתָּנִי;    רָחוֹק מִישׁוּעָתִי, דִּבְרֵי שַׁאֲגָתִי. 2 My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me, and art far from my help at the words of my cry?
          ג  אֱלֹהַי--אֶקְרָא יוֹמָם, וְלֹא תַעֲנֶה;    וְלַיְלָה, וְלֹא-דֻמִיָּה לִי. 3 O my God, I call by day, but Thou answerest not; and at night, and there is no surcease for me.
          ד  וְאַתָּה קָדוֹשׁ--    יוֹשֵׁב, תְּהִלּוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל. 4 Yet Thou art holy, O Thou that art enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
          ה  בְּךָ, בָּטְחוּ אֲבֹתֵינוּ;    בָּטְחוּ, וַתְּפַלְּטֵמוֹ. 5 In Thee did our fathers trust; they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.
          ו  אֵלֶיךָ זָעֲקוּ וְנִמְלָטוּ;    בְּךָ בָטְחוּ וְלֹא-בוֹשׁוּ. 6 Unto Thee they cried, and escaped; in Thee did they trust, and were not ashamed.
          ז  וְאָנֹכִי תוֹלַעַת וְלֹא-אִישׁ;    חֶרְפַּת אָדָם, וּבְזוּי עָם. 7 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
          ח  כָּל-רֹאַי, יַלְעִגוּ לִי;    יַפְטִירוּ בְשָׂפָה, יָנִיעוּ רֹאשׁ. 8 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head:
          ט  גֹּל אֶל-יְהוָה יְפַלְּטֵהוּ;    יַצִּילֵהוּ, כִּי חָפֵץ בּוֹ. 9 'Let him commit himself unto the LORD! let Him rescue him; let Him deliver him, seeing He delighteth in him.'
          י  כִּי-אַתָּה גֹחִי מִבָּטֶן;    מַבְטִיחִי, עַל-שְׁדֵי אִמִּי. 10 For Thou art He that took me out of the womb; Thou madest me trust when I was upon my mother's breasts.
          יא  עָלֶיךָ, הָשְׁלַכְתִּי מֵרָחֶם;    מִבֶּטֶן אִמִּי, אֵלִי אָתָּה. 11 Upon Thee I have been cast from my birth; Thou art my God from my mother's womb.
          יב  אַל-תִּרְחַק מִמֶּנִּי, כִּי-צָרָה קְרוֹבָה:    כִּי-אֵין עוֹזֵר. 12 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
          יג  סְבָבוּנִי, פָּרִים רַבִּים;    אַבִּירֵי בָשָׁן כִּתְּרוּנִי. 13 Many bulls have encompassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
          יד  פָּצוּ עָלַי פִּיהֶם;    אַרְיֵה, טֹרֵף וְשֹׁאֵג. 14 They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
          טו  כַּמַּיִם נִשְׁפַּכְתִּי--    וְהִתְפָּרְדוּ, כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי:
          הָיָה לִבִּי, כַּדּוֹנָג;    נָמֵס, בְּתוֹךְ מֵעָי.
          15 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; {N}
          my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts.
          טז  יָבֵשׁ כַּחֶרֶשׂ, כֹּחִי, וּלְשׁוֹנִי, מֻדְבָּק מַלְקוֹחָי;    וְלַעֲפַר-מָוֶת תִּשְׁפְּתֵנִי. 16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death.
          יז  כִּי סְבָבוּנִי, כְּלָבִים:    עֲדַת מְרֵעִים, הִקִּיפוּנִי; כָּאֲרִי, יָדַי וְרַגְלָי. 17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.
          יח  אֲסַפֵּר כָּל-עַצְמוֹתָי;    הֵמָּה יַבִּיטוּ, יִרְאוּ-בִי. 18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.
          יט  יְחַלְּקוּ בְגָדַי לָהֶם;    וְעַל-לְבוּשִׁי, יַפִּילוּ גוֹרָל. 19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots.
          כ  וְאַתָּה יְהוָה, אַל-תִּרְחָק;    אֱיָלוּתִי, לְעֶזְרָתִי חוּשָׁה. 20 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off; O Thou my strength, hasten to help me.
          כא  הַצִּילָה מֵחֶרֶב נַפְשִׁי;    מִיַּד-כֶּלֶב, יְחִידָתִי. 21 Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog.
          כב  הוֹשִׁיעֵנִי, מִפִּי אַרְיֵה;    וּמִקַּרְנֵי רֵמִים עֲנִיתָנִי. 22 Save me from the lion's mouth; yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen do Thou answer me.
          כג  אֲסַפְּרָה שִׁמְךָ לְאֶחָי;    בְּתוֹךְ קָהָל אֲהַלְלֶךָּ. 23 I will declare Thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee.
          כד  יִרְאֵי יְהוָה, הַלְלוּהוּ--    כָּל-זֶרַע יַעֲקֹב כַּבְּדוּהוּ;
          וְגוּרוּ מִמֶּנּוּ,    כָּל-זֶרַע יִשְׂרָאֵל.
          24 'Ye that fear the LORD, praise Him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; {N}
          and stand in awe of Him, all ye the seed of Israel.
          כה  כִּי לֹא-בָזָה וְלֹא שִׁקַּץ, עֱנוּת עָנִי--    וְלֹא-הִסְתִּיר פָּנָיו מִמֶּנּוּ;
          וּבְשַׁוְּעוֹ אֵלָיו    שָׁמֵעַ.
          25 For He hath not despised nor abhorred the lowliness of the poor; neither hath He hid His face from him; {N}
          but when he cried unto Him, He heard.'
          כו  מֵאִתְּךָ, תְּהִלָּתִי:    בְּקָהָל רָב--נְדָרַי אֲשַׁלֵּם, נֶגֶד יְרֵאָיו. 26 From Thee cometh my praise in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear Him.
          כז  יֹאכְלוּ עֲנָוִים, וְיִשְׂבָּעוּ--    יְהַלְלוּ יְהוָה, דֹּרְשָׁיו;
          יְחִי לְבַבְכֶם    לָעַד.
          27 Let the humble eat and be satisfied; let them praise the LORD that seek after Him; {N}
          may your heart be quickened for ever!
          כח  יִזְכְּרוּ, וְיָשֻׁבוּ אֶל-יְהוָה--    כָּל-אַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ;
          וְיִשְׁתַּחֲווּ לְפָנֶיךָ,    כָּל-מִשְׁפְּחוֹת גּוֹיִם.
          28 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the LORD; {N}
          and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee.
          כט  כִּי לַיהוָה, הַמְּלוּכָה;    וּמֹשֵׁל, בַּגּוֹיִם. 29 For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the ruler over the nations.
          ל  אָכְלוּ וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ, כָּל-דִּשְׁנֵי-אֶרֶץ--    לְפָנָיו יִכְרְעוּ, כָּל-יוֹרְדֵי עָפָר;
          וְנַפְשׁוֹ,    לֹא חִיָּה.
          30 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall kneel before Him, {N}
          even he that cannot keep his soul alive.
          לא  זֶרַע יַעַבְדֶנּוּ;    יְסֻפַּר לַאדֹנָי לַדּוֹר. 31 A seed shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.
          לב  יָבֹאוּ, וְיַגִּידוּ צִדְקָתוֹ:    לְעַם נוֹלָד, כִּי עָשָׂה. 32 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness They shall come and shall declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done it. {P}



          Josiah Draper wrote:
          The New Testament says in Matthew 27: 46 that, at the moment just prior to
          the death of the messiah on the cross, He called out to God, asking why God
          had forsaken Him. Is that what he really meant when He called to God?

          Somehave said that when he took upon the sin of the world, God turned away
          because he cannot look upon sin, and that the messiah was left to suffer
          alone. But that simply does not make sense, God does not abandon the
          righteous! (Deut. 4:31, 2 Chronicles 15:2, Psalms 37)

          When Yeshua said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", he was
          quoting Psalms 22:1, but he was reffering to all of Psalms 22, not just the
          first verse. He knew that his people would recognize the quote and would
          proceed to read the entire Psalm. Then would they realize what he was
          stating, he was stating that Psalms 22 prophecied of him. He was not stating
          that he had been abandoned by God.

          Psalms 22:16-19
          16  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
          they pierced my hands and my feet.
          17  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
          18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
          19  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help
          me.

          -Josiah

          Failures are divided into two classes--those who thought and never did, and
          those who did and never thought.
          -- John Charles Salak

          -- 
          Peace, Love & Light
          Jahnihah
          
          f(0) = 0
          f(1) = 1 
          f(n) = f(n-1)+f(n-2) for n>1

        • privacy
          ... I totally stumbled onto this site when replying to this post. I haven t even had the chance to look at it yet, so let me know if it is helpful.
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002


            Josiah Draper wrote:
            I can't remember if the scriptures say that Christ was left to himself for a time, but you make a Good point Janihah. Also, where did you get the hebrew for that passage online? As I'm learning Hebrew, if I had constant access to Hebrew scriptures online, it would be a great benefit.
             
            -Josiah
            I totally stumbled onto this site when replying to this post. I haven't even had the chance to look at it yet, so let me know if it is helpful.
            http://www.mechon-mamre.org/index.htm
            -- 
            Peace, Love & Light
            Jahnihah
            
            f(0) = 0
            f(1) = 1 
            f(n) = f(n-1)+f(n-2) for n>1

          • Psgpope@aol.com
            Hi All When this was first told to the Mexican Indians of Mexico City by the first Preachers that accompanied the conquistadors they were very surprised and
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
              Hi All
              When this was first told to the Mexican Indians of Mexico City by the first Preachers that accompanied the conquistadors they were very surprised and said in their language it means I'm Blind I'm Blind I can not see!

              But yes Joshiah that was very Good
              Keep it up


              Love & God bless

              Shane
            • Psgpope@aol.com
              Yes you are true about the paradigm but for so much of my life I have had the question why did he love us so much that he needed to come here as Jesus in order
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
                Yes you are true about the paradigm but for so much of my life I have had the question why did he love us so much that he needed to come here as Jesus in order to save & forgive us from our sins.

                Well it has been a Question that has frequently entered my mind for many years and for many years I have asked it of Ministers and been told that he loves us with unconditional love, hence that is why Jesus died for our sins, but still I ask why though? and then I discovered the reluctant-messenger and the missing books and began with the FIRST BOOK OF ADAM & EVE and there it was the answer to a live long question.

                Adam & Eve
                Were very unstable as you could imagine after coming out of the garden and on several occasions killed them selfs read the rest for your self I am sure you will all find it very interesting reading

                Love & God bless

                Shane

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