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[regsaudioforum] Re: "Audiophile" Power Cords

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  • Tom Mallin
    Electrical and other building codes are not uniform in the United States. There are some 44,000 jurisdictions (states, counties, cities, townships, etc.) with
    Message 1 of 42 , Jun 1, 2006
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      Electrical and other building codes are not uniform in the United States.  There are some 44,000 jurisdictions (states, counties, cities, townships, etc.) with building code making authority in this country.  You can imagine how tough this makes the job of insurance adjustment when a decision has to be made as to what the relevant building codes actually requires for a repair made at a particular location.  Sorting that out is one of the types of information my company helps insurers with.
       
      Many US building codes allow earth grounding through the metal conduit which is connected to the metal outlet box. I happen to live in a county which requires this sort of grounding.  The grounding screw on the outlet can be connected by wire to a screw screwed to the outlet box. 
       
      But only spec and hospital grade electrical outlets have separate grounding screws.  Cheaper outlets, which are used in much modern new dwelling construction and which are code compliant, rely on the mounting hardware for the outlet to make contact with the metal electrical box. 
       
      In the next county to my west, metal outlet boxes are not permitted; plastic outlet boxes are required and all earth grounding is to be done through a third wire run from the outlet's grounding screw back to the ground buss in the electrical service box.  Obviously, if you use a cheap grade of outlet in that type of installation, the third hole for the earth ground will truly be a "dummy."
       
      In my reference audio room, to stay within the applicable electrical code for my county, I had to use the metal outlet boxes, but I also run 10-gauge solid copper wires from the grounding screws of the hospital-grade outlets back to a single grounding screw in the electrical service box.
       
       

      >>> RZangpo2@... 06/01/06 06:37AM >>>
      Guys,

      I'm not having a problem with hum. I simply ran across this
      "scientific" explanation of how power cords might make a difference,
      and was curious whether there was anything to it. The answer seems to
      be, "not much".

      Ron Stiskin
      New York

      P.S. Like Ted's, my system is not grounded. Since my house has
      three-pronged outlets, I assumed the electrical service was grounded.
      I had owned the house for several years before I found out that it
      wasn't! The three-pronged outlets are dummies, as far as grounding is
      concerned.

      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Rook" <rooknrol@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ron and Robert:
      >
      > Good questions Robert.
      >
      > But the point about Audiophilia Nervosa is that it does not
      require
      the soil of a real
      > problem to flourish, it draws its
      nutrition from the life forces of
      the infected sufferer!!!!
      > and it
      is infectious and some makers of expensive products are the
      most contagious!!!!!
      >
      > I myself have experienced a bout this past two
      weeks and have
      escaped with the
      > expenditure of only $250 on some
      excellent used electronics, a
      matching DVD player for
      > my amp and
      (another) surround amp. I think the infection is subsiding :D
      >
      > I
      was going to attempt a thorough response but Tom's response is on
      the money and I
      > agree with everything he said, it is said as well as I could,
      (
      except the final paragraph
      > which doesn't affect the truth of what
      came before.)
      >
      > Robert's question is the vital one, is there a
      problem? Are you
      hearing clean audio?
      >
      > This "dialog" from
      Cardas opens with an undisclosed problem and is
      used as a way to
      >
      open a door into the mystical without ever declaring the nature of
      the problem.
      >
      > The first four sentences of the "answer" are
      gobbledegook without
      technical meaning.
      > They are meant to be said
      fast in a live situation to win the
      respect of the listener by
      >
      coercion, baffle them with science.
      >
      > Then sentence five says
      grounds are a problem. Not true. (I stopped
      reading here)
      > Grounds are
      not required for quiet clean hum free audio. My set up
      has been hum free
      > for six years without any ground connection at all. All
      the
      components have two
      > conductor power wires. All the connections
      are unbalanced RCA. No
      hum. No ground.
      > No hum. Audio does not
      require grounding for its operation. It may
      be desireable to
      > ground
      it for safety reasons but not to get hum free performance. In
      fact it is multiple
      > grounds that cause the infamous ground loop. If everything
      is
      grounded once and once
      > only there is no loop. It is unbalanced
      interconnects with the
      shield on at both ends
      > which create the loops
      when combined with multiple equipment chassis
      that are
      > grounded. But
      my system is all unbalanced and is hum free without a
      ground. Why?
      >
      because there are no powerful sources of line frequency magnetic
      radiation nearby to
      > induce hum into the system. And being ground free there can't
      be
      ground loops.
      >
      > I could go on but I won't it's late and I
      have to go to work tomorrow!
      > Just remember my system, no hum, no ground.
      It would work the same
      in your house
      > too unless you live next to
      power substation. And if you do then you
      have problems that
      >
      grounding won't help. There are several types of hum intereference
      and I'm afraid
      > Cardas is not about to educate us about what they are and how to
      fix
      them. I'm afraid
      > their advice is of "buy this" variety. And of
      course exposure to
      Audiophilia Nervosa.
      >
      > Did this
      help?
      >
      > Ted
      >
      >
      > On 1 Jun 2006 at 0:59,
      regtas43 wrote:
      >
      > > Are you hearing a lot of hum in your
      system?
      > > Otherwise what's the problem?
      > >
      > >
      Please note that things like the Bryston and McIntosh electronics
      > >
      deliver their extremely low nose and distortion figures on test with
      > > the suppplied power cords. Just exactly what is it one imagines
      > > might improve with a different cord?
      > >
      > > REG
      > >
      > > PS Cardas is a nice fellow but the Golden Ratio has nothing
      to do
      > > with audio, and this casts some doubt in my
      mind.....
      > >
      > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com,
      "rzangpo2" <RZangpo2@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I found this on the Cardas web site. I don't have the technical
      > > > knowledge to evaluate these statements. Anyone?
      > > >
      > > > Ron Stiskin
      > > > New York
      > > >
      __________
      > > >
      > > > Power Cords
      > > >
      > > > Q.) I've never tried changing the power cords and I'm pretty
      > > sceptical
      > > > about it. Could you please try to
      explain in engineering terms how
      > > > changing a power cord to a
      source component (CD player) which has
      > > an
      > > >
      internally regulated power supply, running in a fully balanced
      > >
      system
      > > > can change the sonic character of the system?
      > > >
      > > > I could understand if there were circulating ground
      currents
      > > between
      > > > the individual components in an
      unbalanced system, but in a
      > > balanced
      > > > system
      ground currents shouldn't be an issue unless the system had
      > > >
      insufficient common mode rejection or wasn't truely balanced in and
      > > > out. Thanks and regards, Sam F.
      > > >
      > > > A.)
      Sam, You are on the right track with the ground currents. Most
      > > >
      cords and power conditioners choke the line current which is
      > >
      useless
      > > > because the power supply almost always has a
      transformer on the
      > > input
      > > > that limits bandwidth
      quite well. Further slowing of the current
      > > input
      > > >
      is counter productive. Grounds on the other hand are a real issue.
      > >
      The
      > > > house ground is well too far away to provide any real
      ground as
      > > > related to RF or digital frequencies or sharp
      transients
      > > circulating
      > > > in the system. The wave
      length of these frequencies is far to
      > > short to
      > > >
      find a proper ground path so they find paths to circulate in the
      > > > system as a whole. This is a multi path condition that cannot be
      > > > common moded because it is the interaction of multiple path
      > > lengths,
      > > > like a ground loop, but at much higher
      frequency. This problem can
      > > be
      > > > so bad in shops
      and studios where there is a lot of digital
      > > equipment,
      > > > that the equipment actually malfunctions entirely. My chords have
      a
      > > > substantial cancellation of trans audio frequencies in the
      ground
      > > > plane, they are also effectively longer than the path
      to house
      > > ground
      > > > and in most cases this
      essentially stops the components from
      > > talking
      > > > to
      each other if they each have a cord.
      > > >
      > > > I did
      substantial testing using microphones and microphone power
      > > >
      supplies that are very sensitive to this problem. Replacing the
      > >
      power
      > > > cords is not a total solution but short of battery
      isolation it
      > > beats
      > > > most everything I have tried,
      short of lifting all the grounds,
      > > which
      > > > can have
      side effects far worse. The amount that a power cord can
      > >
      help
      > > > varies with prevaling conditions. Very simple, single
      point ground,
      > > > tube analogue systems are a far better situation
      to begin with
      > > than a
      > > > broadbanded solidstate
      digital system. Hope this helps. - George
      > > > __________
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > 
      > > Yahoo! Groups
      Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > 
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >




    • Ted Rook
      Richard I have never bothered about turning electronics on or off consistently. It is the different rates of themal expansion among the materials that make up
      Message 42 of 42 , Jun 6, 2006
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        Richard

        I have never bothered about turning electronics on or off consistently.

        It is the different rates of themal expansion among the materials that make up
        electronics that give rise to thermal cycling stresses. For example deep inside IC chips
        are tiny little wires that flex a bit with every thermal cycle. They do not have infinite life
        expectancy.

        The other factor is the finite operating life of components. Generally low stress parts
        (that run cool) have long and very long lives. Whereas parts that are stressed (run hot)
        have shorter lives.
        The semiconductor devices that are now everywhere are so reliable because they run
        cool and we have been making them for so long now that most of the manufacturing
        flaws have been found and fixed.

        Tubes are another matter, the opposite extreme. Hot power devices in power amps
        possess both properties, they are subjected to thermal aging when cycled hot cold, and,
        they have finite lives because they operate hot. Damned if you do and damned if you
        don't. Probably best on balance to turn stuff on when you need it and off when you don't.

        Thames Valley huh? For some reason I had you up North, something to do with the old
        firm I think. I am also an adopter of compact fluorescent lights, I went for 100 Watters in
        a big way, just one snag, they mess up AM reception a bit.

        Thanks for the mic tips.

        Ted


        On 6 Jun 2006 at 15:17, Richard Tuck wrote:

        >
        > Hi Ted
        >
        > Following the discovery of just how much electricity we were using ( CO2 wise probably offset by
        > my zero length commute) we decided to look at way of economising -a bit for the planet, a bit
        > forour pockets. Having exhusted the low energy lamp thing we started looking elsewhere.
        > BTWthere are substitutes for virtually every lamptype now, including minature spots and
        > floods. Because of the diffuse source they do not have the throw of of a Q H lamp but in most
        > places and they work just fine and e.g. 50W goes to 11W.
        >
        > I bought a new toy:
        >
        > http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=watt%20meter&doy=6m6&source=15
        >
        > Really usefully it integrates and reads out kW hrs.
        >
        > Looks very useful and I'm sure there are US equivalents. At the moment it thinks the voltage is
        > 241.4V and f=49.9 Hz. Robert reports the weather in Brussels, I report the mains conditions in
        > the Thames Valley.
        >
        > On this topic what is the collective view of leaving solid state amps permanently on so they are
        > warm? Maybe a timer to turn them off during the night might save a bit? We could start a new
        > Green Audio movement.
        >
        > Thoughts from all please?
        >
        > Richard
        >
        >
        > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Richard Tuck
        > Sent: 02 June 2006 21:18
        > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [regsaudioforum] Re: "Audiophile" Power Cords
        >
        > Hi Ted
        >
        > Just for you actual at 2216 hours is237V +/- the uncertainty of my meter which has never been
        > calibrated.
        >
        > Richard
        >
        >
        > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of Ted Rook
        > Sent: 02 June 2006 21:04
        > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [regsaudioforum] Re: "Audiophile" Power Cords
        >
        > Thank you Richard, my information is that the spec is 230V +/- 10% rather than +/- 10V.
        > My curiosity is to see where we have got to with the 240 to 230 changeover. I suspect
        > you are still getting 240V from the street and I wanted to have an actual reading.
        >
        > Ted
        >
        > On 2 Jun 2006 at 16:16, Richard Tuck wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > Hi Ted
        > >
        > > Current spec is 230 +/- 10V.
        > >
        > > Richard
        > >
        > >
        > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com] On
        > > Behalf Of Ted Rook
        > > Sent: 02 June 2006 04:25
        > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: RE: [regsaudioforum] Re: "Audiophile" Power Cords
        > >
        > > Richard, can you please satisfy my curiosity next time your multimeter is in hand and
        > > give an exact (range of) voltage reading for your house power?
        > >
        > > Thanks
        > >
        > > Ted
        > >
        > > On 1 Jun 2006 at 22:15, Richard Tuck wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi Tom
        > > >
        > > > Is the 110V thing that makes you guys in the US so sloppy with earthing. Proper earthing has
        > > > been mandatory on power socketsin the UK since, well almostforever. A little after that it
        > > > became mandatory in all lighting circuits. I still find occasional light fittings that need earths
        > in
        > > > my mid 1930s house but never non-earthed power sockets. Is your mains balanced about
        > > earth
        > > > or is one wire neutral.
        > > >
        > > > In the UK 230V unbalanced gives you a healthy respect for mains. The standard UK system
        > is
        > > > called a ring main see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
        > > > it will intrigue you but actually is very good. Within reason you can add extra sockets and the
        > > > odd spur off the ring to another socket. It's so good most countries chose to go another way.
        > > > Only grouch is the plugs are rather big.
        > > >
        > > > Richard
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com] On
        > > > Behalf Of rzangpo2
        > > > Sent: 01 June 2006 20:50
        > > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: "Audiophile" Power Cords
        > > >
        > > > You evidently know more about this than I do, Tom. My house was built
        > > > in 1970. I can only assume that the local building code didn't require
        > > > residential wiring to be grounded in those days.
        > > >
        > > > Ron Stiskin
        > > > New York
        > > >
        > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mallin" <tmallin@...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Electrical and other building codes are not uniform in the United
        > > > > States. There are some 44,000 jurisdictions (states, counties, cities,
        > > > > townships, etc.) with building code making authority in this country.
        > > > > You can imagine how tough this makes the job of insurance adjustment
        > > > > when a decision has to be made as to what the relevant building codes
        > > > > actually requires for a repair made at a particular location. Sorting
        > > > > that out is one of the types of information my company helps insurers
        > > > > with.
        > > > >
        > > > > Many US building codes allow earth grounding through the metal conduit
        > > > > which is connected to the metal outlet box. I happen to live in a county
        > > > > which requires this sort of grounding. The grounding screw on the
        > > > > outlet can be connected by wire to a screw screwed to the outlet box.
        > > > >
        > > > > But only spec and hospital grade electrical outlets have separate
        > > > > grounding screws. Cheaper outlets, which are used in much modern new
        > > > > dwelling construction and which are code compliant, rely on the mounting
        > > > > hardware for the outlet to make contact with the metal electrical box.
        > > > >
        > > > > In the next county to my west, metal outlet boxes are not permitted;
        > > > > plastic outlet boxes are required and all earth grounding is to be done
        > > > > through a third wire run from the outlet's grounding screw back to the
        > > > > ground buss in the electrical service box. Obviously, if you use a
        > >
        > > > > cheap grade of outlet in that type of installation, the third hole for
        > > > > the earth ground will truly be a "dummy."
        > > > >
        > > > > In my reference audio room, to stay within the applicable electrical
        > > > > code for my county, I had to use the metal outlet boxes, but I also run
        > > > > 10-gauge solid copper wires from the grounding screws of the
        > > > > hospital-grade outlets back to a single grounding screw in the
        > > > > electrical service box.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >>> RZangpo2@... 06/01/06 06:37AM >>>
        > > > > Guys,
        > > > >
        > > > > I'm not having a problem with hum. I simply ran across this
        > > > > "scientific" explanation of how power cords might make a difference,
        > > > > and was curious whether there was anything to it. The answer seems to
        > > > > be, "not much".
        > > > >
        > > > > Ron Stiskin
        > > > > New York
        > > > >
        > > > > P.S. Like Ted's, my system is not grounded. Since my house has
        > > > > three-pronged outlets, I assumed the electrical service was grounded.
        > > > > I had owned the house for several years before I found out that it
        > > > > wasn't! The three-pronged outlets are dummies, as far as grounding is
        > > > > concerned.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Rook" <rooknrol@>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ron and Robert:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Good questions Robert.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > But the point about Audiophilia Nervosa is that it does not require
        > > > > the soil of a real
        > > > > > problem to flourish, it draws its nutrition from the life forces of
        > > > > the infected sufferer!!!!
        > > > > > and it is infectious and some makers of expensive products are the
        > > > > most contagious!!!!!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I myself have experienced a bout this past two weeks and have
        > > > > escaped with the
        > > > > > expenditure of only $250 on some excellent used electronics, a
        > > > > matching DVD player for
        > > > > > my amp and (another) surround amp. I think the infection is subsiding
        > > > > :D
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I was going to attempt a thorough response but Tom's response is on
        > > > > the money and I
        > > > > > agree with everything he said, it is said as well as I could, (
        > > > > except the final paragraph
        > > > > > which doesn't affect the truth of what came before.)
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Robert's question is the vital one, is there a problem? Are you
        > > > > hearing clean audio?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > This "dialog" from Cardas opens with an undisclosed problem and is
        > > > > used as a way to
        > > > > > open a door into the mystical without ever declaring the nature of
        > > > > the problem.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The first four sentences of the "answer" are gobbledegook without
        > > > > technical meaning.
        > > > > > They are meant to be said fast in a live situation to win the
        > > > > respect of the listener by
        > > > > > coercion, baffle them with science.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Then sentence five says grounds are a problem. Not true. (I stopped
        > > > > reading here)
        > > > > > Grounds are not required for quiet clean hum free audio. My set up
        > > > > has been hum free
        > > > > > for six years without any ground connection at all. All the
        > > > > components have two
        > > > > > conductor power wires. All the connections are unbalanced RCA. No
        > > > > hum. No ground.
        > > > > > No hum. Audio does not require grounding for its operation. It may
        > > > > be desireable to
        > > > > > ground it for safety reasons but not to get hum free performance. In
        > > > > fact it is multiple
        > > > > > grounds that cause the infamous ground loop. If everything is
        > > > > grounded once and once
        > > > > > only there is no loop. It is unbalanced interconnects with the
        > > > > shield on at both ends
        > > > > > which create the loops when combined with multiple equipment chassis
        > > > > that are
        > > > > > grounded. But my system is all unbalanced and is hum free without a
        > > > > ground. Why?
        > > > > > because there are no powerful sources of line frequency magnetic
        > > > > radiation nearby to
        > > > > > induce hum into the system. And being ground free there can't be
        > > > > ground loops.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I could go on but I won't it's late and I have to go to work
        > > > > tomorrow!
        > > > > > Just remember my system, no hum, no ground. It would work the same
        > > > > in your house
        > > > > > too unless you live next to power substation. And if you do then you
        > > > > have problems that
        > > > > > grounding won't help. There are several types of hum intereference
        > > > > and I'm afraid
        > > > > > Cardas is not about to educate us about what they are and how to fix
        > > > > them. I'm afraid
        > > > > > their advice is of "buy this" variety. And of course exposure to
        > > > > Audiophilia Nervosa.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Did this help?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ted
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On 1 Jun 2006 at 0:59, regtas43 wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Are you hearing a lot of hum in your system?
        > > > > > > Otherwise what's the problem?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Please note that things like the Bryston and McIntosh electronics
        > > > > > > deliver their extremely low nose and distortion figures on test
        > > > > with
        > > > > > > the suppplied power cords. Just exactly what is it one imagines
        > > > > > > might improve with a different cord?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > REG
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > PS Cardas is a nice fellow but the Golden Ratio has nothing to do
        > > > > > > with audio, and this casts some doubt in my mind.....
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "rzangpo2" <RZangpo2@>
        > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I found this on the Cardas web site. I don't have the technical
        > > > > > > > knowledge to evaluate these statements. Anyone?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Ron Stiskin
        > > > > > > > New York
        > > > > > > > __________
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Power Cords
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Q.) I've never tried changing the power cords and I'm pretty
        > > > > > > sceptical
        > > > > > > > about it. Could you please try to explain in engineering terms
        > > > > how
        > > > > > > > changing a power cord to a source component (CD player) which has
        > > > >
        > > > > > > an
        > > > > > > > internally regulated power supply, running in a fully balanced
        > > > > > > system
        > > > > > > > can change the sonic character of the system?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I could understand if there were circulating ground currents
        > > > > > > between
        > > > > > > > the individual components in an unbalanced system, but in a
        > > > > > > balanced
        > > > > > > > system ground currents shouldn't be an issue unless the system
        > > > > had
        > > > > > > > insufficient common mode rejection or wasn't truely balanced in
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > > out. Thanks and regards, Sam F.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > A.) Sam, You are on the right track with the ground currents.
        > > > > Most
        > > > > > > > cords and power conditioners choke the line current which is
        > > > > > > useless
        > > > > > > > because the power supply almost always has a transformer on the
        > > > > > > input
        > > > > > > > that limits bandwidth quite well. Further slowing of the current
        > > > >
        > > > > > > input
        > > > > > > > is counter productive. Grounds on the other hand are a real
        > > > > issue.
        > > > > > > The
        > > > > > > > house ground is well too far away to provide any real ground as
        > > > > > > > related to RF or digital frequencies or sharp transients
        > > > > > > circulating
        > > > > > > > in the system. The wave length of these frequencies is far to
        > > > > > > short to
        > > > > > > > find a proper ground path so they find paths to circulate in the
        > > > > > > > system as a whole. This is a multi path condition that cannot be
        > > > > > > > common moded because it is the interaction of multiple path
        > > > > > > lengths,
        > > > > > > > like a ground loop, but at much higher frequency. This problem
        > > > > can
        > > > > > > be
        > > > > > > > so bad in shops and studios where there is a lot of digital
        > > > > > > equipment,
        > > > > > > > that the equipment actually malfunctions entirely. My chords have
        > > > > a
        > > > > > > > substantial cancellation of trans audio frequencies in the
        > > > > ground
        > > > > > > > plane, they are also effectively longer than the path to house
        > > > > > > ground
        > > > > > > > and in most cases this essentially stops the components from
        > > > > > > talking
        > > > > > > > to each other if they each have a cord.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > I did substantial testing using microphones and microphone power
        > > > > > > > supplies that are very sensitive to this problem. Replacing the
        > > > > > > power
        > > > > > > > cords is not a total solution but short of battery isolation it
        > > > > > > beats
        > > > > > > > most everything I have tried, short of lifting all the grounds,
        > > > > > > which
        > > > > > > > can have side effects far worse. The amount that a power cord can
        > > > >
        > > > > > > help
        > > > > > > > varies with prevaling conditions. Very simple, single point
        > > > > ground,
        > > > > > > > tube analogue systems are a far better situation to begin with
        > > > > > > than a
        > > > > > > > broadbanded solidstate digital system. Hope this helps. - George
        > > > >
        > > > > > > > __________
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
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