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Merry Christmas!

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  • regtas43
    Merry Christmas to all, In musical terms, Christmas means for me listening to old favorite records(Roger WIliams version of the Christmas Song(Chestnuts
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013

      Merry Christmas to all,

      In musical  terms, Christmas means for me listening to old favorite records(Roger WIliams' version of the Christmas Song(Chestnuts roasting on an open fire.) on Kapp , Ramsey Lewis Trio doing Santa Claus is Coming to Town are a couple of favorites, and the Longines Symphoniette Christmas album with its real 50s feel  and so many other, and of course the gift from on high of the human voice, Jennifer Vyvyan in Handel's Messiah). This year, as often happens, the old favorite recordings are being played on old favorite speakers--the Spendor SP1/2. Always a joy.

      A thank you to Derek Hughes (for the speakers) and a merry Christmas to all!

      REG

    • Tom Mallin
      Lessons &Carols live from Kings College Cambridge broadcast by the BBC via the M40.1s at 9:00 this morning.
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013
        Lessons &Carols live from Kings College Cambridge broadcast by the BBC via the M40.1s at 9:00 this morning.

        On Dec 24, 2013, at 6:39 PM, <regtas43@...> wrote:

         

        Merry Christmas to all,

        In musical  terms, Christmas means for me listening to old favorite records(Roger WIliams' version of the Christmas Song(Chestnuts roasting on an open fire.) on Kapp , Ramsey Lewis Trio doing Santa Claus is Coming to Town are a couple of favorites, and the Longines Symphoniette Christmas album with its real 50s feel  and so many other, and of course the gift from on high of the human voice, Jennifer Vyvyan in Handel's Messiah). This year, as often happens, the old favorite recordings are being played on old favorite speakers--the Spendor SP1/2. Always a joy.

        A thank you to Derek Hughes (for the speakers) and a merry Christmas to all!

        REG

      • regtas43
        http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132 http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132 We three kings is amazing--Calrec Soundfield one point mike on a huge
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013

          http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132

          "We three kings" is amazing--Calrec Soundfield one point mike on a huge chorus.

          REG

        • regtas43
          http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132 http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132 We three kings is unforgettable(Calrec Soundfield, on a huge chorus). Great
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013

            http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132

            "We three kings" is unforgettable(Calrec Soundfield, on a huge chorus). Great arrangement too.

            And the original London Blue Back of Festival of Lessons and Carols, where the choir marches

            in from a distance--nothing like it, really, for stereo depth impression(well, along with some of the stuff in the Decca/London Turandot)  WIllinson really had depth down, peaky mikes or no.

            REG

          • James David Walley
            Did they ever do a CD of that BlueBack? Sent from my iPhone
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013
              Did they ever do a CD of that BlueBack?

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Dec 24, 2013, at 6:45 PM, <regtas43@...> wrote:

               

              http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132

              "We three kings" is unforgettable(Calrec Soundfield, on a huge chorus). Great arrangement too.

              And the original London Blue Back of Festival of Lessons and Carols, where the choir marches

              in from a distance--nothing like it, really, for stereo depth impression(well, along with some of the stuff in the Decca/London Turandot)  WIllinson really had depth down, peaky mikes or no.

              REG

            • regtas43
              Not that I am aware. It is on mp3 on Amazon but I have not seen a CD. There are lots of CDs of nine lessons and carols including one in Danish on Paula(which
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013

                Not that I am aware. It is on mp3 on Amazon but I have not seen a CD. There are lots of CDs of nine lessons and carols including one in Danish on Paula(which is really gorgeous) but not this one as far as I know.

                REG

              • Tom Mallin
                I did not mean to imply that today s live Lessons & Carols from Kings College Cambridge was broadcast in great sound. It wasn t anything special. But the
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013
                  I did not mean to imply that today's live Lessons & Carols from Kings College Cambridge was broadcast in great sound.  It wasn't anything special.  But the event is something I try to hear each year, especially since I've participated in the choir part of this sort of service at my church for many years now, most recently on December 15.  Cambridge has been doing Lessons & Carols every year since 1918, according to the announcer.

                  Tonight was our traditional candle light service where everyone lights their individual candle from the person next to him or her until there are a thousand candles lit and the lights are out.  Very pretty, especially since the glass skylight of the church becomes a mirror at night for the candles, multiplying the effect and making it look as if there are angels above us with their candles lit.

                  On Dec 24, 2013, at 8:45 PM, <regtas43@...> wrote:

                   

                  http://www.musicstack.com/item/133814132

                  "We three kings" is unforgettable(Calrec Soundfield, on a huge chorus). Great arrangement too.

                  And the original London Blue Back of Festival of Lessons and Carols, where the choir marches

                  in from a distance--nothing like it, really, for stereo depth impression(well, along with some of the stuff in the Decca/London Turandot)  WIllinson really had depth down, peaky mikes or no.

                  REG

                • regtas43
                  This sounds really nice(the candlelight service). And I agree, the Lessons and Carols is a lovely event. Independently of one s religion, the Bible is
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 24, 2013

                    This sounds really nice(the candlelight service). And I agree, the Lessons and Carols is a lovely event. Independently of one's religion, the Bible is wonderful English, some of the best. And beautiful read, it is marvelous to listen to.

                     

                    "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. 3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) 5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

                     

                    It is like the beginning of a great piece of music--and yet it is a simple narrative. Wonderful language is magic stuff, like music. 

                    REG

                  • Ted Rook
                    Also enjoying the Beecham Messiah this Christmas, greetings to all the forum, happy Christmas. Ted
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 25, 2013
                      Also enjoying the Beecham Messiah this Christmas, greetings to all the forum, happy
                      Christmas.

                      Ted


                      On 24 Dec 2013 at 16:39, regtas43@... wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Merry Christmas to all,
                      > In musical terms, Christmas means for me listening to old favorite
                      > records(Roger WIliams' version
                      > of the Christmas Song(Chestnuts roasting on an open fire.) on Kapp ,
                      > Ramsey Lewis Trio doing
                      > Santa Claus is Coming to Town are a couple of favorites, and the
                      > Longines Symphoniette
                      > Christmas album with its real 50s feel and so many other, and of
                      > course the gift from on high of
                      > the human voice, Jennifer Vyvyan in Handel's Messiah). This year, as
                      > often happens, the old
                      > favorite recordings are being played on old favorite speakers--the
                      > Spendor SP1/2. Always a joy.
                      > A thank you to Derek Hughes (for the speakers) and a merry Christmas
                      > to all!
                      > REG
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • regtas43
                      Merry Christmas!. I imagine that everyone knows the story about Beecham and the Messiah recording but just in case:. The record company wanted to use Joan
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 25, 2013

                        Merry Christmas!.

                         I imagine that everyone knows the story about Beecham and the Messiah recording but just in case:. The record company wanted to use Joan Sutherland(this was a joint project of Decca and RCA and Decca was pushing Sutherland pretty hard) They brought this up to Beecham who said(according to report or legend or whatever)

                        "I won't have that caterwauling Australian. No Jennifer[Vyvyan], no Messiah".

                        And so Jennifer Vyvyan it was , and a performance for the ages.

                        REG

                         

                      • James David Walley
                        I m not sure I can go along with the Beecham as a performance for the ages -- to me, despite its beauties, the Handel-Goossens (for, surely, that would be
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 25, 2013
                          I'm not sure I can go along with the Beecham as a performance "for the ages" -- to me, despite its beauties, the Handel-Goossens (for, surely, that would be the most honest description of its creators) "Messiah" is specifically "for AN age"…and one long past; the age when, as with Stokowski's transcriptions of Bach, it was thought necessary to dress up Baroque music in late 19th Century orchestral garb to make it accessible to "modern" classical music audiences.  Within a decade after the Beecham, the pioneering recordings of this work by Shaw and Davis had put the lie to that assumption. 

                          At the moment, my favorite version of Handel's oratorio is the first from Cleobury (originally on Argo, now available as a CD/DVD combination from Naxos), particularly in its video incarnation. Although hampered a bit by an over-reverberant recording locale, Cleobury's version seems the best blend between English spirituality and Baroque performance practice -- authentic without descending into the peril of becoming "museum music."

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Dec 25, 2013, at 10:34 AM, <regtas43@...> wrote:

                           

                          Merry Christmas!.

                           I imagine that everyone knows the story about Beecham and the Messiah recording but just in case:. The record company wanted to use Joan Sutherland(this was a joint project of Decca and RCA and Decca was pushing Sutherland pretty hard) They brought this up to Beecham who said(according to report or legend or whatever)

                          "I won't have that caterwauling Australian. No Jennifer[Vyvyan], no Messiah".

                          And so Jennifer Vyvyan it was , and a performance for the ages.

                          REG

                           

                        • regtas43
                          I was really referring to Vyvyan s singing. People vary in their viewpoints. Lots of people seem to be interested in what I would call the choice aspects of a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 25, 2013

                            I was really referring to Vyvyan's singing. People vary in their viewpoints. Lots of people seem to be interested in what I would call the choice aspects of a performance--how fast or slow it is, what stylistic conventions are followed., what the level of expressiveness is, teh rhetoric temperature as it were. None of this tends to interest me all that much--it is just a choice and one could have made the choice another way and anyone with any musical imagination could imgine how it would have sounded if some other choices were made. It is not hard to imagine how something would sound at a different tempo say. This is an intellectual matter as it were. And as such, it is not really a big deal to my mind. I know how Messiah sounds done lighter and fleeter. Whether I like that is just  a taste, and is not much of an issue as far as I am concerned.  

                            But there are things that are not like that. A really perfectly beautiful voice is not a choice. If you do not have one you cannot choose to have one. Furthermore , it is not really possible to imagine exactly how a voice like Vyvyan would sound if you were not hearing her and never had heard her  This is why Beecham wanted her--he knew he could make the rest as he pleased but he could not make some other singer sound that way. The things that are important to me are the gifts from on high, the things that are not choosable.

                            Music critics like to write about the choice aspects--it gives them something to write about. But the magic voices are outside this.

                            To  switch fields, it is like Julie London. Who cares about authenticity of the style or whether she sings to the words or whatever. There is the voice!  As Paige says, she sings the songs as if she did not know what the words meant. I would not say that, but even if it were true, I would not care. She is just the voice.

                            If you tell a singer that you disagree with his interpretations, he may tell you what do you know but basiclly he won't give a darn and may just laugh if he is not too polite. If you tell him he has an ugly voice, he is likely to punch you in the nose, unless he is afraid of lawsuits

                            The singers know.

                            Audio has tended to kill this basic truth because so seldom is the beauty of the voice or the string tone reliably preserved. Critics hardly talk about violinists' tones any longer whereas it used to be a central matter,. almost the central matter. Instead they discuss endlessly "interpretation". Something anyone can choose to do any way they like.

                            Just a personal view. But you might want to try experimenting on talking to singers and violinists and see how far you would get telling them they had an ugly sound.

                            REG

                            REG.

                          • regtas43
                            Aw come on. Who could resist the Stokowski T and F or the Passacaglia? Wonderful stuff. Surely no one would really rather hear these pieces on a tracker action
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 25, 2013

                              Aw come on. Who could resist the Stokowski T and F or the Passacaglia? Wonderful stuff. Surely no one would really rather hear these pieces on a tracker action mini organ? To each his own, I suppose. I am a bit tired of theses pieces anyway, but at least Stokowski's version is exciting Authentic of course not. But so what?I think of the processional in Lucky Jim. ....

                              Of course whatever moves you, moves you. But the authenticity movement has become really boring as far as I am concerned. Once one has heard a few performances , what is there to it? Low pitch, faster than usual,reduced(not to mention wimpy) forces, ho hum.  

                              Incidentally it is a total misconception that "big " Messiahs are a modern invention

                              Eg

                              In continental Europe, performances of Messiah were departing from Handel's practices in a different way: his score was being drastically reorchestrated to suit contemporary tastes. In 1786, Johann Adam Hiller presented Messiah with updated scoring in Berlin Cathedral.[69] In 1788 Hiller presented a performance of his revision with a choir of 259 and an orchestra of 87 strings, 10 bassoons, 11 oboes, 8 flutes, 8 horns, 4 clarinets, 4 trombones, 7 trumpets, timpani, harpsichord and organ

                              This was 1788 in a size that makes Beecham look tiny--10 bassoons! 11 oboes, 8 flutes--it sounds like something even Berlioz would have hesitated to propose. This was less than 30 years after Handel's death --and aa long way from modern times. The same idea occurred in England around the same time. It seems to have been Mozart who reintroduced the small Messiah. And the size has oscillagted up and down since.

                              REG

                               

                            • regtas43
                              I aplogize if I sounded combative here. Spirit of Christmas etc. And indeed I am a firm believer in the whatever pleases response to music. All I was trying to
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 25, 2013

                                I aplogize if I sounded combative here. Spirit of Christmas etc. And indeed I am a firm believer in the whatever pleases response to music. All I was trying to get at is that to my mind the deepest things in music are not really arguable. Perhaps this is true of life as a whole. Who would presume to explain to anyone else--or even to him or her self--why they married the person they did marry."What's the use of wond'ring if he's good or if he's bad, he's your feller and you love him. that's all there is to that."

                                Of course musicians have to figure out how to play. One cannot run on inspiration alone. But to a surprising extent I think that the most important parts come from the subconscious. Anyone who develops an interpretation by over-nalyzing is probably not going to get much of an interpretation going.

                                My view anyway. If you can figure it out, then you really have not figured it out!

                                So I am skeptical of theories of how music ought to be played, especially theories based on musicology

                                of the performance practices of the times.

                                As I mentioned , some of the authentic people(Mullova in particular) seems to me really great musicians so what comes out is really great. But it is not so much great because it is authentic, or not great because of that, as it is just great.

                                Anyway, I apologize if I sounded doctrinaire(as of course I tend to do). In actuality, I tend to feel that musical interpretation is so complex that no doctrinaire view is evenhalf way plausible. But we all have our own reactions--and we tend to have them strongly, no matter how rational we try to be.

                                It is , however , a fact that the large Messiah idea was not an invention of semi modern times. It has been around for a very long time!

                                REG

                              • Ken Holder
                                ... I would say Stokowski s Bach is MUSICALLY authentic, which is the only thing I d say matters. I bet Bach would like it, too. I must read Lucky Jim
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 25, 2013
                                  On 12/25/2013 6:43 PM, regtas43@... wrote:
                                   

                                  Aw come on. Who could resist the Stokowski T and F or the Passacaglia? Wonderful stuff. Surely no one would really rather hear these pieces on a tracker action mini organ? To each his own, I suppose. I am a bit tired of theses pieces anyway, but at least Stokowski's version is exciting Authentic of course not. But so what?I think of the processional in Lucky Jim. ....


                                  I would say Stokowski's Bach is MUSICALLY authentic, which is
                                  the only thing I'd say matters. I bet Bach would like it, too.

                                  I must read "Lucky Jim" sometime. Every time you mention it,
                                  I think "Lord Jim" which I read for the first time a few months
                                  ago. Context confusion.

                                  Ken Holder
                                  Old Guy



                                • Edward Mast
                                  REG makes very good points; as always, quite reasonable. My views on the HIP movement are a bit different, though I understand REG s reservations. I guess
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 26, 2013
                                    REG makes very good points; as always, quite reasonable. My views on the HIP movement are a bit different, though I understand REG's reservations. I guess I've been listening to early classical, and pre-classical music as performed by musicians on original instruments for so long, that my ear is quite accustomed to their sound. Now, when I hear certain works by some earlier composers performed on modern instruments in a stylistically 19th century manner, they sound a bit odd to me. Almost as if they are transcriptions for instruments other than those the works were written for. All very subjective, of course.

                                    Ned
                                  • Edward Mast
                                    Perhaps I should say a stylistically early 20th century manner . Ned
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 26, 2013
                                      Perhaps I should say a "stylistically early 20th century manner".
                                      Ned

                                    • regtas43
                                      One does get used to it perhaps. What interests me, too, is that 19th century music is itself in need of an authenticity movement. The sound contemporary
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 26, 2013

                                        One does get used to it perhaps. What interests me, too, is that 19th century music is itself in need of an authenticity movement. The sound contemporary orchestras make in (heaven save us) contemporary concert halls is not very much like the sound that say Brahms heard in Vienna. Between the harder brighter set up of the strings(violins with "Dominant" strings, say) and the hard edged cold concert halls that are all too common--Romantic orchestral sound needs a return to its normal nature. This is especially important because the literal sound of the 19th century Romantic style is arguably more important to the music than is the literal sound in the Baroque--or perhaps I should say even more important.   Interest in orchestration and literal sound was at a peak in the late 19th century.

                                        But we seldom hear the sound intended. I have  a recording of some Elgar string music played as it would have been played when it was written. It is really different from how it sounds now.

                                        Comes to that, pianos were a lot different too. If you have heard a late 19th century piano, you already know this. The difference from today's pianos is large.

                                        REG

                                      • Edward Mast
                                        I have a recording of some of Brahms piano works played on a 1901 Steinway. A very different sound from the more modern Steinways, though a long way from a
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 26, 2013
                                          I have a recording of some of Brahms' piano works played on a 1901 Steinway. A very different sound from the more modern Steinways, though a long way from a fortepiano.
                                          Ned
                                        • regtas43
                                          Yes indeed. And the sound that Brahms wrote for late in his life (he died in 1895. His last piano works were written in 1893 or thereabouts) An authenticity
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 26, 2013

                                            Yes indeed. And the sound that Brahms wrote for late in his life

                                            (he died in 1895. His last piano works were written in 1893 or thereabouts)

                                            An authenticity movement is definitely needed here--and would make

                                            more sense than the one we have. For a start. the information

                                            about what went on is much more precise(a good deal of what

                                            is believed about Baroque performance practice is built on very

                                            shakey ground in my opinion. WIth Brahms, you can KNOW)

                                            REG

                                             

                                          • Will_H
                                            I really enjoyed this educational and from-the-hip interview with Roger Sanders. Although I did raise an eye about his comment re:192Kbps MP3’s.
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 5, 2014

                                              I really enjoyed this educational and from-the-hip interview with Roger Sanders.  Although I did raise an eye about his comment re:192Kbps MP3’s.

                                               

                                              http://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/11/interview-with-roger-sanders.html

                                               

                                              Happy New Year to all!

                                               

                                              Will

                                            • Ted Rook
                                              thanks for the link Will. As a sometime audio engineer with a lot of hours in front of a dB meter I admire Sanders candor and bravery, I wish him every
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 12, 2014
                                                thanks for the link Will. As a sometime audio engineer with a lot of hours in front of a dB
                                                meter I admire Sanders' candor and bravery, I wish him every success.

                                                Ted

                                                On 5 Jan 2014 at 22:32, Will_H wrote:

                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I really enjoyed this educational and from-the-hip interview with
                                                > Roger Sanders.
                                                > Although I did raise an eye about his comment re:192Kbps MP3's.
                                                > http://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/11/interview-with-roger-sanders.ht
                                                > ml
                                                > Happy New Year to all!
                                                > Will
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • regtas43
                                                I strongly recommend this interview. There is a lot of very good information there. If one were going to read only one thing on audio this year say, this would
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 12, 2014

                                                  I strongly recommend this interview. There is a lot of very good information there. If one were going to read only one thing on audio this year say, this would be a good choice.

                                                  There are certain points that turn up that are not really discussed. For example, the question of how, given that recordings are meant to be listened to with a certain amount of room sound(as they are in practice), what one wants to do about this. This is not  a scientific question really and Sanders does not consequently seemt to take it too seriously--his speakers are extremely beamy--but it is in fact a real question for the consumer, who just wants to listen to music.

                                                  I also think that he under-rates how good dynamic(moving coil) loudspeakers have become nowdays, The best have distortion levels way down. And this idea that they cannot start and stop fast is , dare I say so, rather midleading.  It is not mass that makes dynamic drivers store energy. It is break-up within the material of the driver. Sanders I am sure nows this but perhaps he just does not want to get into it. Motion does not remember frequency. If a driver that functions as a harmonic oscillator(mass/spring system) is being driver at a certain frequency and then the drive stops, the driver does not "remember" its frequency . Its subsequent behavior is oscillation at the frequency of its resonance as a mass'spring/damping system--which is in well designed driver situations extremely low.

                                                  You can see that say the tweeter of the Harbeth M40.1 s is extremely clean in its waterfall behavior for instance.

                                                  Electrostatics sound different., But I think the beaminess is much more of the reason than the massless (nearly) nature of the driver.

                                                  That point aside, most of what he says is in my opinion essentially true though here and there one might take issue with certain points.

                                                  Altogether, good--and surely fearless.

                                                  Incidentally, the Sanders Magtech is the king of the hill in amplifiers in my opinion at the present time. It is not even remotely the limiting factor in home stereo at all. Its errors are in practice insigificant in the picture as a whole., And it is nicely flat into really oddball loads. A great product.

                                                  REG 

                                                • kevindoyle.forum
                                                  My favorite part about this interview was the reaction in the audiophile world soon after it it came out. A number of people were apoplectic. They said they
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 12, 2014

                                                    My favorite part about this interview was the reaction in the audiophile world soon after it it came out.  A number of people were apoplectic.  They said they wouldn't his products because of that interview.  As if they ever had any intention of buying his products!  They're not expensive/exotic enough...no tubes...measure well...no ostentatious casework.... 


                                                    As far as the electrostatic/dynamic thing, I think it's normal for a designer who is wedded to a certain approach to be fully committed to it.  As a result of that commitment, they believe that their approach is the best way and tend to see more of the flaws in other approaches.  It's not uncommon and does not take anything away from what I feel to be an overall objectivity in Roger's approach to audio.  It's much the same with Alan Shaw.  Both are gifted designers and so rational about audio that it amazes me that they're able to work in the field.  


                                                    If I had the space, I'd have 40.1's and 10C's in my listening room, with Roger's electronics.  


                                                  • Tom Mallin
                                                    Sanders has the best customer service and among the best packing I ve encountered in high-end audio. Based on living with his products for awhile, areas where
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jan 13, 2014
                                                      Sanders has the best customer service and among the best packing I've encountered in high-end audio.

                                                      Based on living with his products for awhile, areas where Sanders is wearing rose-colored glasses as to the performance of his own products, in my opinion, include (1) the high frequency beaminess of his speakers, (2) the bass performance of his transmission line woofer, and (3) the transparency and lack of audible noise of his digital crossover (Behringer DCX2496).

                                                      On the other hand, I've had no problems at all with his Magtech Monobloc amps and cannot fault the sound of these at all driving any of the speakers in my stable.

                                                      On Jan 13, 2014, at 1:12 AM, <kevindoyle.forum@...> wrote:

                                                       

                                                      My favorite part about this interview was the reaction in the audiophile world soon after it it came out.  A number of people were apoplectic.  They said they wouldn't his products because of that interview.  As if they ever had any intention of buying his products!  They're not expensive/exotic enough...no tubes...measure well...no ostentatious casework.... 


                                                      As far as the electrostatic/dynamic thing, I think it's normal for a designer who is wedded to a certain approach to be fully committed to it.  As a result of that commitment, they believe that their approach is the best way and tend to see more of the flaws in other approaches.  It's not uncommon and does not take anything away from what I feel to be an overall objectivity in Roger's approach to audio.  It's much the same with Alan Shaw.  Both are gifted designers and so rational about audio that it amazes me that they're able to work in the field.  


                                                      If I had the space, I'd have 40.1's and 10C's in my listening room, with Roger's electronics.  


                                                    • regtas43
                                                      As I said in the pages of TAS, the Sanders Magtech is at the top of the list in my opinion in amplification(along with a very few others perhaps). It is really
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jan 13, 2014

                                                        As I said in the pages of TAS, the Sanders Magtech is at the top of the list in my opinion in amplification(along with a very few others perhaps). It is really really good, effectively just a solution of the problem. And considering that it is built to last forever and can drive anything, it is very rationally priced, not just by High End standards(which are quite lax as to pricing) but by standards of actual cost and profit margin and so on, You really get your money's worth.

                                                        I can well understand his perception that High End audio is an odd place. If one makes an all but incomparable amplifier for that price, how must an amp that costs over $100,000 look to you?

                                                        REG

                                                      • Ted Rook
                                                        ... I agree, done with care moving coil is no slouch! With moving coil drivers one of the successfull design choices is the division of the audio band into
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jan 14, 2014
                                                          On 12 Jan 2014 at 15:40, regtas43@... wrote:

                                                          > I also think that he under-rates how good dynamic(moving coil)
                                                          > loudspeakers have become
                                                          > nowdays, The best have distortion levels way down. And this idea
                                                          > that they cannot start and stop
                                                          > fast is , dare I say so, rather midleading. It is not mass that
                                                          > makes dynamic drivers store energy. It
                                                          > is break-up within the material of the driver.


                                                          I agree, done with care moving coil is no slouch! With moving coil drivers one of the
                                                          successfull design choices is the division of the audio band into three sections by crossovers
                                                          and then giving each section a driver whose area and mass is in rough proportion to the
                                                          wavelengths radiated. This way the treble energy is radiated by a driver having very low mass
                                                          and the bass energy is radiated by a driver having significant area that doesn't have to move
                                                          very fast and so the mass of which is less significant. In between, the midrange can be both
                                                          light and fast. This three-way combination is one of the strengths of the Harbeth M40 design I
                                                          think.

                                                          Having said that I would like to hear some electrostatics one day. I am curious about this
                                                          fundamentally dipole speaker principal, do designers of electrostatics attempt to absorb the
                                                          back wave, is this approach helpful?

                                                          Ted
                                                        • regtas43
                                                          David J s electrostatic (that we have been discussing) is electrostatic in the higher frequencies only and the electrostatic unit is in a box, not operated as
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jan 14, 2014

                                                            David J's electrostatic (that we have been discussing) is electrostatic in the higher frequencies only and

                                                            the electrostatic unit is in a box, not operated as a dipole. Most electrostats are dipoles, but not all!

                                                            (The Beveridge also had the electrostatic element in an enclosure).

                                                            I don't think very many designers(as opposed to audiophiles) think the back wave is something desirable, except in the bass. Peter Walker used to talk about how it was harmless if you got the speakers far enough from the back wall.

                                                            Dipole operation does have the advantage of making the speaker have a null at the side--so if you aim the speaker right you can get a very low level of side wall reflection. The back wall reflection will be long delayed if you have room to get the speaker far from the back wall. So one can get something like RFZ sound without an RFZ room. The down side is that it is really hard to get bass power and extension from dipoles. And of course you do need to get the speaker far from the back wall.

                                                            Gradient as you all know decided in the Revolution on dipole bass and forward everything else.

                                                            Different possibilities have been tried.

                                                            And then there is Siegfriend Linkwitz(and others) who like to bounce the backwave around and do dipole

                                                            upper range for that reason(or so it seems).

                                                            Speakers offer lots of possibilities.

                                                            Incidentally the side wall early reflection seems to me most aggressively perceived in the upper mids and up. A speaker like David;s or like the Spendor SP1/2, which is beamy at the top of its bass/mid driver, gives much of the impression of suppressing the side walls without having a dipole null. All these things are matters of thresholds. The side wall reflection does not need to be zero to seem effectively almost not there in listening terms.

                                                            REG

                                                          • Peter
                                                            ...   Mine are approximately 8 feet from the back wall (i.e., the wall behind the front speakers), and my listening position is approximately 7 feet from
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jan 14, 2014
                                                              > And of course you do need to get the speaker far from the back wall.
                                                               
                                                              Mine are approximately 8 feet from the "back wall" (i.e., the wall behind the front speakers), and my listening position is approximately 7 feet from the speakers.  In round numbers, that's a 23 ms back wave delay to my ears.

                                                              From: "regtas43@..." <regtas43@...>
                                                              To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 1:15 PM
                                                              Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Roger Sanders Interview
                                                               
                                                              David J's electrostatic (that we have been discussing) is electrostatic in the higher frequencies only and
                                                              the electrostatic unit is in a box, not operated as a dipole. Most electrostats are dipoles, but not all!
                                                              (The Beveridge also had the electrostatic element in an enclosure).
                                                              I don't think very many designers(as opposed to audiophiles) think the back wave is something desirable, except in the bass. Peter Walker used to talk about how it was harmless if you got the speakers far enough from the back wall.
                                                              Dipole operation does have the advantage of making the speaker have a null at the side--so if you aim the speaker right you can get a very low level of side wall reflection. The back wall reflection will be long delayed if you have room to get the speaker far from the back wall. So one can get something like RFZ sound without an RFZ room. The down side is that it is really hard to get bass power and extension from dipoles. And of course you do need to get the speaker far from the back wall.
                                                              Gradient as you all know decided in the Revolution on dipole bass and forward everything else.
                                                              Different possibilities have been tried.
                                                              And then there is Siegfriend Linkwitz(and others) who like to bounce the backwave around and do dipole
                                                              upper range for that reason(or so it seems).
                                                              Speakers offer lots of possibilities.
                                                              Incidentally the side wall early reflection seems to me most aggressively perceived in the upper mids and up. A speaker like David;s or like the Spendor SP1/2, which is beamy at the top of its bass/mid driver, gives much of the impression of suppressing the side walls without having a dipole null. All these things are matters of thresholds. The side wall reflection does not need to be zero to seem effectively almost not there in listening terms.
                                                              REG
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