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Re: comments on measurements welcome !

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  • Robert
    The point is that popular music with very few exceptions is not recorded--is not a recording of a live acoustic event-- but is built . I have watched this
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      The point is that popular music with very
      few exceptions is not recorded--is not
      a recording of a live acoustic event--
      but is "built". I have watched this done
      as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
      at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
      the thing together with Protools or the like
      from tracks recorded who knows how
      The result may be gratifying--but one
      has almost no idea of what it should sound
      like.

      You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
      noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
      like that! At least one knows what it sounds like

      REG

      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
      >
      > Fred.
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
      > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      > >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
      > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > 
      > >Something where one had some a priori idea
      > >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
      > >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
      > >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
      > >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
      > >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
      > >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
      > >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
      > >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
      > >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
      > >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
      > >REG
      > >
      > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
      > >>
      > >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Fred.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> >________________________________
      > >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
      > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
      > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> > 
      > >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
      > >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
      > >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
      > >> >if you compare them to real music.
      > >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
      > >> >Look at this
      > >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
      > >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
      > >> >played at the demonstration.
      > >> >This speaks for itself.
      > >> >
      > >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
      > >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
      > >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
      > >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
      > >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
      > >> >pop recordings?
      > >> >
      > >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
      > >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
      > >> >
      > >> >REG
      > >> >
      > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
      > >> >>
      > >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
      > >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
      > >> >> jeff
      > >> >>
      > >> >>
      > >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
      > >> >> > jeff
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
      > >> >> > >
      > >> >> > > KEF LS50
      > >> >> > >
      > >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
      > >> >> > >
      > >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
      > >> >> > >
      > >> >> >
      > >> >>
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >> >
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Fred
      Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail)
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
      • 0 Attachment

        Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail) that one's own speakers might be driven to replicate if of similar type and setting - which is unlikely.  We aspire to speakers that are a "best fit" to the majority of tracks we replay and feel gratification if the source seems with us.

        Arrgh!  Stuff it - where's me headphones?

        G'nite :-)

        Fred.



        From: Robert <regtas43@...>
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 1:48
        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !

         
        The point is that popular music with very
        few exceptions is not recorded--is not
        a recording of a live acoustic event--
        but is "built". I have watched this done
        as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
        at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
        the thing together with Protools or the like
        from tracks recorded who knows how
        The result may be gratifying--but one
        has almost no idea of what it should sound
        like.

        You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
        noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
        like that! At least one knows what it sounds like

        REG

        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
        >
        > Fred.
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
        > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
        > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > 
        > >Something where one had some a priori idea
        > >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
        > >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
        > >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
        > >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
        > >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
        > >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
        > >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
        > >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
        > >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
        > >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
        > >REG
        > >
        > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
        > >>
        > >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Fred.
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> >________________________________
        > >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
        > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
        > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> > 
        > >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
        > >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
        > >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
        > >> >if you compare them to real music.
        > >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
        > >> >Look at this
        > >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
        > >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
        > >> >played at the demonstration.
        > >> >This speaks for itself.
        > >> >
        > >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
        > >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
        > >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
        > >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
        > >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
        > >> >pop recordings?
        > >> >
        > >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
        > >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
        > >> >
        > >> >REG
        > >> >
        > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
        > >> >>
        > >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
        > >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
        > >> >> jeff
        > >> >>
        > >> >>
        > >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
        > >> >> >
        > >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
        > >> >> > jeff
        > >> >> >
        > >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
        > >> >> > >
        > >> >> > > KEF LS50
        > >> >> > >
        > >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
        > >> >> > >
        > >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
        > >> >> > >
        > >> >> >
        > >> >>
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >



      • Robert
        Good joke but of course the headphones are guaranteed not to reproduce the recording correctly if it was made(as most are) for speaker listening. With
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Good joke but of course the headphones are guaranteed
          not to reproduce the recording correctly if it was
          made(as most are) for speaker listening.
          With processing one can get fairly close to sounding'
          like speaker playback--but made for speakers
          works best on speakers.
          REG

          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail) that one's own speakers might be driven to replicate if of similar type and setting - which is unlikely.  We aspire to speakers that are a "best fit" to the majority of tracks we replay and feel gratification if the source seems with us.
          >
          > Arrgh!  Stuff it - where's me headphones?
          >
          > G'nite :-)
          >
          > Fred.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >________________________________
          > > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
          > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          > >Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 1:48
          > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > 
          > >The point is that popular music with very
          > >few exceptions is not recorded--is not
          > >a recording of a live acoustic event--
          > >but is "built". I have watched this done
          > >as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
          > >at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
          > >the thing together with Protools or the like
          > >from tracks recorded who knows how
          > >The result may be gratifying--but one
          > >has almost no idea of what it should sound
          > >like.
          > >
          > >You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
          > >noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
          > >like that! At least one knows what it sounds like
          > >
          > >REG
          > >
          > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
          > >>
          > >> Fred.
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> From: Robert <regtas43@>
          > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
          > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >> > 
          > >> >Something where one had some a priori idea
          > >> >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
          > >> >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
          > >> >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
          > >> >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
          > >> >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
          > >> >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
          > >> >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
          > >> >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
          > >> >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
          > >> >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
          > >> >REG
          > >> >
          > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
          > >> >>
          > >> >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
          > >> >>
          > >> >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
          > >> >>
          > >> >>
          > >> >> Fred.
          > >> >>
          > >> >>
          > >> >>
          > >> >>
          > >> >> >________________________________
          > >> >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
          > >> >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          > >> >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
          > >> >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> > 
          > >> >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
          > >> >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
          > >> >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
          > >> >> >if you compare them to real music.
          > >> >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
          > >> >> >Look at this
          > >> >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
          > >> >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
          > >> >> >played at the demonstration.
          > >> >> >This speaks for itself.
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
          > >> >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
          > >> >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
          > >> >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
          > >> >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
          > >> >> >pop recordings?
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
          > >> >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >REG
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
          > >> >> >>
          > >> >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
          > >> >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
          > >> >> >> jeff
          > >> >> >>
          > >> >> >>
          > >> >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
          > >> >> >> >
          > >> >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
          > >> >> >> > jeff
          > >> >> >> >
          > >> >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
          > >> >> >> > >
          > >> >> >> > > KEF LS50
          > >> >> >> > >
          > >> >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
          > >> >> >> > >
          > >> >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
          > >> >> >> > >
          > >> >> >> >
          > >> >> >>
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >
          > >> >> >
          > >> >>
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Fred
          Good slap guaranteed if I listen through speakers at three o clock in the morning! So needs must..... Considering the investment and effort that goes into
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 25, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Good slap guaranteed if I listen through speakers at three o'clock in the morning!
            So needs must.....

            Considering the investment and effort that goes into loudspeaker design it's surprising that headphone developments have not yielded an effective alternative to loudspeakers.

            Fred.



            From: Robert <regtas43@...>
            To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 6:37
            Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !

             
            Good joke but of course the headphones are guaranteed
            not to reproduce the recording correctly if it was
            made(as most are) for speaker listening.
            With processing one can get fairly close to sounding'
            like speaker playback--but made for speakers
            works best on speakers.
            REG

            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail) that one's own speakers might be driven to replicate if of similar type and setting - which is unlikely.  We aspire to speakers that are a "best fit" to the majority of tracks we replay and feel gratification if the source seems with us.
            >
            > Arrgh!  Stuff it - where's me headphones?
            >
            > G'nite :-)
            >
            > Fred.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >________________________________
            > > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
            > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            > >Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 1:48
            > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > 
            > >The point is that popular music with very
            > >few exceptions is not recorded--is not
            > >a recording of a live acoustic event--
            > >but is "built". I have watched this done
            > >as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
            > >at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
            > >the thing together with Protools or the like
            > >from tracks recorded who knows how
            > >The result may be gratifying--but one
            > >has almost no idea of what it should sound
            > >like.
            > >
            > >You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
            > >noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
            > >like that! At least one knows what it sounds like
            > >
            > >REG
            > >
            > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
            > >>
            > >> Fred.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> From: Robert <regtas43@>
            > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
            > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > 
            > >> >Something where one had some a priori idea
            > >> >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
            > >> >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
            > >> >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
            > >> >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
            > >> >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
            > >> >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
            > >> >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
            > >> >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
            > >> >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
            > >> >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
            > >> >REG
            > >> >
            > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
            > >> >>
            > >> >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
            > >> >>
            > >> >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
            > >> >>
            > >> >>
            > >> >> Fred.
            > >> >>
            > >> >>
            > >> >>
            > >> >>
            > >> >> >________________________________
            > >> >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
            > >> >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            > >> >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
            > >> >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> > 
            > >> >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
            > >> >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
            > >> >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
            > >> >> >if you compare them to real music.
            > >> >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
            > >> >> >Look at this
            > >> >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
            > >> >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
            > >> >> >played at the demonstration.
            > >> >> >This speaks for itself.
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
            > >> >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
            > >> >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
            > >> >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
            > >> >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
            > >> >> >pop recordings?
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
            > >> >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >REG
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
            > >> >> >>
            > >> >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
            > >> >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
            > >> >> >> jeff
            > >> >> >>
            > >> >> >>
            > >> >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
            > >> >> >> >
            > >> >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
            > >> >> >> > jeff
            > >> >> >> >
            > >> >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
            > >> >> >> > >
            > >> >> >> > > KEF LS50
            > >> >> >> > >
            > >> >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
            > >> >> >> > >
            > >> >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
            > >> >> >> > >
            > >> >> >> >
            > >> >> >>
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >
            > >> >> >
            > >> >>
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >



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