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Re: comments on measurements welcome !

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  • Edward
    John Atkinson s Stereophile review/measurements. He must think that real music sounds like this!
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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      John Atkinson's Stereophile review/measurements. He must think that real music sounds like this!

      http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker


      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@...> wrote:
      >
      > This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
      > (to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
      > Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
      > if you compare them to real music.
      > But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
      >
    • Robert
      This is very peculiar to my eyes. After a long series of measurements showing that the speaker is extremely far from being correctly balanced, he summarizes by
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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        This is very peculiar to my eyes.
        After a long series of measurements
        showing that the speaker is extremely
        far from being correctly balanced,
        he summarizes by saying that it has
        superb measured performance.
        I have no explanation for this at all.
        REG

        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
        >
        > John Atkinson's Stereophile review/measurements. He must think that real music sounds like this!
        >
        > http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker
        >
        >
        > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
        > >
        > > This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
        > > (to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
        > > Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
        > > if you compare them to real music.
        > > But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
        > >
        >
      • Tom Mallin
        I don t get it either. The high frequency shelving up in this KEF is a couple of dB more than in my AR-303a s and the shelf up in the 303a s is already
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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          I don't get it either.  The high frequency shelving up in this KEF is a couple of dB more than in my AR-303a's and the shelf up in the 303a's is already audible as added brightness even though it is balanced by the AR's very strong bass, which the KEF lacks.


          On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Robert <regtas43@...> wrote:
           

          This is very peculiar to my eyes.
          After a long series of measurements
          showing that the speaker is extremely
          far from being correctly balanced,
          he summarizes by saying that it has
          superb measured performance.
          I have no explanation for this at all.
          REG

          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
          >
          > John Atkinson's Stereophile review/measurements. He must think that real music sounds like this!
          >
          > http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker
          >
          >
          > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
          > >
          > > This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
          > > (to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
          > > Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
          > > if you compare them to real music.
          > > But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
          > >
          >


        • Fred
          The way I prefer to understand Soundstage is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse. What tracks would you have
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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            The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.

            What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?

            Fred.



            From: Robert <regtas43@...>
            To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
            Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !

             
            This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
            (to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
            Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
            if you compare them to real music.
            But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
            Look at this
            www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
            Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
            played at the demonstration.
            This speaks for itself.

            And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
            It can become all there is that is discussed.
            And of course it is nonsense here, too.
            What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
            in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
            pop recordings?

            The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
            if there is no reference to live acoustic music.

            REG

            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@...> wrote:
            >
            > But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
            > Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
            > jeff
            >
            >
            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
            > > jeff
            > >
            > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > KEF LS50
            > > >
            > > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
            > > >
            > > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
            > > >
            > >
            >



          • Robert
            Something where one had some a priori idea of what the result should be--naturally recorded voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral recordings,
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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              Something where one had some a priori idea
              of what the result should be--naturally recorded
              voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
              recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
              pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
              with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
              know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
              Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
              Correctness in the abstract is like saying
              "5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
              the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
              REG

              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
              >
              > The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
              >
              > What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
              >
              >
              > Fred.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >________________________________
              > > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
              > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
              > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
              > >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
              > >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
              > >if you compare them to real music.
              > >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
              > >Look at this
              > >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
              > >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
              > >played at the demonstration.
              > >This speaks for itself.
              > >
              > >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
              > >It can become all there is that is discussed.
              > >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
              > >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
              > >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
              > >pop recordings?
              > >
              > >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
              > >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
              > >
              > >REG
              > >
              > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
              > >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
              > >> jeff
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
              > >> >
              > >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
              > >> > jeff
              > >> >
              > >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
              > >> > >
              > >> > > KEF LS50
              > >> > >
              > >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
              > >> > >
              > >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
              > >> > >
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Fred
              Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers. Fred. From:
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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                Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.

                Fred.

                From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
                Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !

                 
                Something where one had some a priori idea
                of what the result should be--naturally recorded
                voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
                recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
                pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
                with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
                know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
                Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
                Correctness in the abstract is like saying
                "5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
                the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
                REG

                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                >
                > The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
                >
                > What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
                >
                >
                > Fred.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >________________________________
                > > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                > >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
                > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > 
                > >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
                > >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
                > >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
                > >if you compare them to real music.
                > >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
                > >Look at this
                > >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
                > >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
                > >played at the demonstration.
                > >This speaks for itself.
                > >
                > >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
                > >It can become all there is that is discussed.
                > >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
                > >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
                > >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
                > >pop recordings?
                > >
                > >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
                > >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
                > >
                > >REG
                > >
                > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
                > >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
                > >> jeff
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                > >> >
                > >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
                > >> > jeff
                > >> >
                > >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
                > >> > >
                > >> > > KEF LS50
                > >> > >
                > >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
                > >> > >
                > >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
                > >> > >
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >



              • Robert
                The point is that popular music with very few exceptions is not recorded--is not a recording of a live acoustic event-- but is built . I have watched this
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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                  The point is that popular music with very
                  few exceptions is not recorded--is not
                  a recording of a live acoustic event--
                  but is "built". I have watched this done
                  as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
                  at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
                  the thing together with Protools or the like
                  from tracks recorded who knows how
                  The result may be gratifying--but one
                  has almost no idea of what it should sound
                  like.

                  You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
                  noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
                  like that! At least one knows what it sounds like

                  REG

                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
                  >
                  > Fred.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                  > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
                  > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 
                  > >Something where one had some a priori idea
                  > >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
                  > >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
                  > >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
                  > >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
                  > >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
                  > >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
                  > >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
                  > >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
                  > >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
                  > >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
                  > >REG
                  > >
                  > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
                  > >>
                  > >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> Fred.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> >________________________________
                  > >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
                  > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
                  > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> > 
                  > >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
                  > >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
                  > >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
                  > >> >if you compare them to real music.
                  > >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
                  > >> >Look at this
                  > >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
                  > >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
                  > >> >played at the demonstration.
                  > >> >This speaks for itself.
                  > >> >
                  > >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
                  > >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
                  > >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
                  > >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
                  > >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
                  > >> >pop recordings?
                  > >> >
                  > >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
                  > >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
                  > >> >
                  > >> >REG
                  > >> >
                  > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
                  > >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
                  > >> >> jeff
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
                  > >> >> > jeff
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
                  > >> >> > >
                  > >> >> > > KEF LS50
                  > >> >> > >
                  > >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
                  > >> >> > >
                  > >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
                  > >> >> > >
                  > >> >> >
                  > >> >>
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >> >
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Fred
                  Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail)
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail) that one's own speakers might be driven to replicate if of similar type and setting - which is unlikely.  We aspire to speakers that are a "best fit" to the majority of tracks we replay and feel gratification if the source seems with us.

                    Arrgh!  Stuff it - where's me headphones?

                    G'nite :-)

                    Fred.



                    From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                    To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 1:48
                    Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !

                     
                    The point is that popular music with very
                    few exceptions is not recorded--is not
                    a recording of a live acoustic event--
                    but is "built". I have watched this done
                    as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
                    at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
                    the thing together with Protools or the like
                    from tracks recorded who knows how
                    The result may be gratifying--but one
                    has almost no idea of what it should sound
                    like.

                    You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
                    noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
                    like that! At least one knows what it sounds like

                    REG

                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
                    >
                    > Fred.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                    > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
                    > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 
                    > >Something where one had some a priori idea
                    > >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
                    > >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
                    > >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
                    > >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
                    > >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
                    > >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
                    > >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
                    > >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
                    > >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
                    > >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
                    > >REG
                    > >
                    > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
                    > >>
                    > >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Fred.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> >________________________________
                    > >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
                    > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
                    > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> > 
                    > >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
                    > >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
                    > >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
                    > >> >if you compare them to real music.
                    > >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
                    > >> >Look at this
                    > >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
                    > >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
                    > >> >played at the demonstration.
                    > >> >This speaks for itself.
                    > >> >
                    > >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
                    > >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
                    > >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
                    > >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
                    > >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
                    > >> >pop recordings?
                    > >> >
                    > >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
                    > >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
                    > >> >
                    > >> >REG
                    > >> >
                    > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
                    > >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
                    > >> >> jeff
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
                    > >> >> > jeff
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
                    > >> >> > >
                    > >> >> > > KEF LS50
                    > >> >> > >
                    > >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
                    > >> >> > >
                    > >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
                    > >> >> > >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >



                  • Robert
                    Good joke but of course the headphones are guaranteed not to reproduce the recording correctly if it was made(as most are) for speaker listening. With
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 24, 2013
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                      Good joke but of course the headphones are guaranteed
                      not to reproduce the recording correctly if it was
                      made(as most are) for speaker listening.
                      With processing one can get fairly close to sounding'
                      like speaker playback--but made for speakers
                      works best on speakers.
                      REG

                      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail) that one's own speakers might be driven to replicate if of similar type and setting - which is unlikely.  We aspire to speakers that are a "best fit" to the majority of tracks we replay and feel gratification if the source seems with us.
                      >
                      > Arrgh!  Stuff it - where's me headphones?
                      >
                      > G'nite :-)
                      >
                      > Fred.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >________________________________
                      > > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                      > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 1:48
                      > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > 
                      > >The point is that popular music with very
                      > >few exceptions is not recorded--is not
                      > >a recording of a live acoustic event--
                      > >but is "built". I have watched this done
                      > >as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
                      > >at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
                      > >the thing together with Protools or the like
                      > >from tracks recorded who knows how
                      > >The result may be gratifying--but one
                      > >has almost no idea of what it should sound
                      > >like.
                      > >
                      > >You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
                      > >noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
                      > >like that! At least one knows what it sounds like
                      > >
                      > >REG
                      > >
                      > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
                      > >>
                      > >> Fred.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> From: Robert <regtas43@>
                      > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
                      > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> > 
                      > >> >Something where one had some a priori idea
                      > >> >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
                      > >> >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
                      > >> >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
                      > >> >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
                      > >> >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
                      > >> >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
                      > >> >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
                      > >> >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
                      > >> >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
                      > >> >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
                      > >> >REG
                      > >> >
                      > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >> Fred.
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >> >________________________________
                      > >> >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
                      > >> >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
                      > >> >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> > 
                      > >> >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
                      > >> >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
                      > >> >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
                      > >> >> >if you compare them to real music.
                      > >> >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
                      > >> >> >Look at this
                      > >> >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
                      > >> >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
                      > >> >> >played at the demonstration.
                      > >> >> >This speaks for itself.
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
                      > >> >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
                      > >> >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
                      > >> >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
                      > >> >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
                      > >> >> >pop recordings?
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
                      > >> >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >REG
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                      > >> >> >>
                      > >> >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
                      > >> >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
                      > >> >> >> jeff
                      > >> >> >>
                      > >> >> >>
                      > >> >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                      > >> >> >> >
                      > >> >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
                      > >> >> >> > jeff
                      > >> >> >> >
                      > >> >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
                      > >> >> >> > >
                      > >> >> >> > > KEF LS50
                      > >> >> >> > >
                      > >> >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
                      > >> >> >> > >
                      > >> >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
                      > >> >> >> > >
                      > >> >> >> >
                      > >> >> >>
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >> >
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Fred
                      Good slap guaranteed if I listen through speakers at three o clock in the morning! So needs must..... Considering the investment and effort that goes into
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 25, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Good slap guaranteed if I listen through speakers at three o'clock in the morning!
                        So needs must.....

                        Considering the investment and effort that goes into loudspeaker design it's surprising that headphone developments have not yielded an effective alternative to loudspeakers.

                        Fred.



                        From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 6:37
                        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !

                         
                        Good joke but of course the headphones are guaranteed
                        not to reproduce the recording correctly if it was
                        made(as most are) for speaker listening.
                        With processing one can get fairly close to sounding'
                        like speaker playback--but made for speakers
                        works best on speakers.
                        REG

                        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes and your point relates to mine in that whether accurate or contrived, what results from the person at such a desk is a track (including soundstage detail) that one's own speakers might be driven to replicate if of similar type and setting - which is unlikely.  We aspire to speakers that are a "best fit" to the majority of tracks we replay and feel gratification if the source seems with us.
                        >
                        > Arrgh!  Stuff it - where's me headphones?
                        >
                        > G'nite :-)
                        >
                        > Fred.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >________________________________
                        > > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                        > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 1:48
                        > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 
                        > >The point is that popular music with very
                        > >few exceptions is not recorded--is not
                        > >a recording of a live acoustic event--
                        > >but is "built". I have watched this done
                        > >as I am sure many of you have. Someone sits
                        > >at a desk with monitor speakers and puts
                        > >the thing together with Protools or the like
                        > >from tracks recorded who knows how
                        > >The result may be gratifying--but one
                        > >has almost no idea of what it should sound
                        > >like.
                        > >
                        > >You would be a lot better off to listen to pink
                        > >noise to check a speaker than to listen to something
                        > >like that! At least one knows what it sounds like
                        > >
                        > >REG
                        > >
                        > >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Yes - and one trusts that the track listened to is a result of studios working on that basis but mixed metaphors too often result out of speakers.
                        > >>
                        > >> Fred.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> From: Robert <regtas43@>
                        > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 23:14
                        > >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> > 
                        > >> >Something where one had some a priori idea
                        > >> >of what the result should be--naturally recorded
                        > >> >voice (recorded at a distance), reasonable orchestral
                        > >> >recordings, and so on. When one uses highly manipulated
                        > >> >pop music, or highly manipulated music of any kind
                        > >> >with unknown antecedents, then one has no way to
                        > >> >know if the speaker is doing it right or not.
                        > >> >Correctness has to be in comparison to a known source.
                        > >> >Correctness in the abstract is like saying
                        > >> >"5 is the right answer"--without knowing whether
                        > >> >the question was what is 3+2 or what is 3+3.
                        > >> >REG
                        > >> >
                        > >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@> wrote:
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >> The way I prefer to understand "Soundstage" is that it is carried on the recording and speakers can present it for better or worse.
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >> What tracks would you have chosen to assess such a speaker?
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >> Fred.
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >> >________________________________
                        > >> >> > From: Robert <regtas43@>
                        > >> >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> >> >Sent: Wednesday, 24 April 2013, 17:35
                        > >> >> >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: comments on measurements welcome !
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> > 
                        > >> >> >This will of course sound both entirely wrong and
                        > >> >> >(to my mind) really awful and in fact stupid.
                        > >> >> >Speakers balanced like this sound like a joke
                        > >> >> >if you compare them to real music.
                        > >> >> >But this comparison seems to be going into eclipse.
                        > >> >> >Look at this
                        > >> >> >www.stereophile.com/content/raidho-21-speaker-premieres-naim-streams
                        > >> >> >Scroll down to where it is discussed what music was
                        > >> >> >played at the demonstration.
                        > >> >> >This speaks for itself.
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >And you wonder why I object to "soundstage"?
                        > >> >> >It can become all there is that is discussed.
                        > >> >> >And of course it is nonsense here, too.
                        > >> >> >What kind of "soundstage" would one be justified
                        > >> >> >in expecting from a bunch of artificially constructed
                        > >> >> >pop recordings?
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >The whole field could easily turn into nonsense
                        > >> >> >if there is no reference to live acoustic music.
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >REG
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >--- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                        > >> >> >>
                        > >> >> >> But if you really hate the BBC dip (and bass), this is the speaker for you.
                        > >> >> >> Well, maybe not. You also need to like THD at 100Hz (not a surprise with a small speaker).
                        > >> >> >> jeff
                        > >> >> >>
                        > >> >> >>
                        > >> >> >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jeffstakehifi@> wrote:
                        > >> >> >> >
                        > >> >> >> > I have not heard them, but it looks like I'd want quite a bit of EQ!
                        > >> >> >> > jeff
                        > >> >> >> >
                        > >> >> >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "ddm261125" <ddm261125@> wrote:
                        > >> >> >> > >
                        > >> >> >> > > KEF LS50
                        > >> >> >> > >
                        > >> >> >> > > http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153
                        > >> >> >> > >
                        > >> >> >> > > They got excellent reviews all around the globe!
                        > >> >> >> > >
                        > >> >> >> >
                        > >> >> >>
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >> >
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >



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