Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Another recording nominee

Expand Messages
  • Peter
    Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 “Organ” Ondine ODE 1094-5 Hybrid SA-CD 5.0 multichannel.  (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4356)  This is the most
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 “Organ” Ondine ODE 1094-5 Hybrid SA-CD 5.0 multichannel. 
      This is the most “realistic” orchestral recording I’ve ever heard, but it most definitely won’t be to everyone’s taste. 
      When I say “most realistic,” what I mean is that I’ve never heard anything closer to the source than this recording.  And by “source," I don't mean an analogue master, nor a digital master, but a live concert, listened to from 10th row center at Verizon Hall.
      Therein lies the rub.  10th row center seems to have gotten a reputation as a sort of “black hole”—2-3 rows too far back to be a Blumlein listening spot, and 10-12 rows too close to be considered mid-hall, let alone front row center in the top tier, where I sat for more than 30 years, first at the Academy of Music and later at Verizon Hall. 
      This recording offers the perspective I hear live, in part because it is a live concert from Verizon Hall itself.  The recording has no obvious highlighting.  Everything, front to back, is where it should be and sounds the way it should.  The woodwinds, horns, and brass are balanced just as they are in live music.  The organ can be felt, not just heard.  The surround channels help “put you in the hall” without calling attention to themselves.  If the surround speakers are full range (“large” in home theater terms), they help support—and smooth out—the deepest bass.
      This recording won’t do well on a system designed for “polite” playback levels.  However, the Redbook layer also does quite well in my Passat’s Monsoon audio system.
      Here’s a link to Kalman Rubinson’s review: http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/507mitr/index1.html
      From Ondine’s own site, here’s a “teaser” from the 4th movement and an extensive list of excerpts from reviews:  http://www.ondine.net/?lid=en&cid=2.2&oid=2571
    • Edward
      I also find this Organ Symphony recording impressive, even if I ve never been in Verizon Hall. At my usual polite playback levels, the perspective seems
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        I also find this Organ Symphony recording impressive, even if I've never been in Verizon Hall. At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more distant than that served up by many big label recordings. All to the good, I think.

        Edward

        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
        >
        > Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 “Organ” Ondine ODE 1094-5 Hybrid SA-CD 5.0 multichannel. 
        > (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4356) 
        > This is the most “realistic” orchestral recording I’ve ever heard, but it most definitely won’t be to everyone’s taste. 
        > When I say “most realistic,” what I mean is that I’ve never heard anything closer to the source than this recording.  And by “source," I don't mean an analogue master, nor a digital master, but a live concert, listened to from 10th row center at Verizon Hall.
        >

        > This recording won’t do well on a system designed for “polite” playback levels. 
      • Peter
        ...   I think this may be a function of the curve formerly known as Fletcher Munson, which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels, at
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          > At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more distant than that served up by many big label recordings.
           
          I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as Fletcher Munson," which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels, at least for modern recordings.
           
          By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl on a friend's system.  Even though he takes good care of his records, I had forgotten the joys of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and constricted dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).

          From: Edward <Edward_Wu@...>
          To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 12:17 PM
          Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Another recording nominee
           
          I also find this Organ Symphony recording impressive, even if I've never been in Verizon Hall. At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more distant than that served up by many big label recordings. All to the good, I think.

          Edward

          --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
          >
          > Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 “Organ” Ondine ODE 1094-5 Hybrid SA-CD 5.0 multichannel. 
          > (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4356) 
          > This is the most “realistic” orchestral recording I’ve ever heard, but it most definitely won’t be to everyone’s taste. 
          > When I say “most realistic,” what I mean is that I’ve never heard anything closer to the source than this recording.  And by “source," I don't mean an analogue master, nor a digital master, but a live concert, listened to from 10th row center at Verizon Hall.
          >

          > This recording won’t do well on a system designed for “polite” playback levels. 

        • Ted Rook
          You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......


            On 2 Apr 2013 at 10:01, Peter wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more
            > distant than
            > that served up by many big label recordings.
            > I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as
            > Fletcher Munson,"
            > which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels,
            > at least for
            > modern recordings.
            > By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl
            > on a friend's
            > system. Even though he takes good care of his records, I had
            > forgotten the joys
            > of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and
            > constricted
            > dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
            >
          • Robert
            This is of course mostly nonsense. A well done phono system does not have audible hum,and clean records in good condition do not have pops and scratches. One
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              This is of course mostly nonsense. A well done phono
              system does not have audible hum,and
              clean records in good condition do not
              have pops and scratches.
              One could agree in some cases about the
              limited dynamics.
              But really, this is mostly just more of
              the usual opinionated nonsense.
              REG



              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
              >
              > > At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more distant than that served up by many big label recordings.
              >  
              > I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as Fletcher Munson," which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels, at least for modern recordings.
              >  
              > By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl on a friend's system.  Even though he takes good care of his records, I had forgotten the joys of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and constricted dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Edward <Edward_Wu@...>
              > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 12:17 PM
              > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Another recording nominee
              >
              >  
              > I also find this Organ Symphony recording impressive, even if I've never been in Verizon Hall. At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more distant than that served up by many big label recordings. All to the good, I think.
              >
              > Edward
              >
              > --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3 “Organ” Ondine ODE 1094-5 Hybrid SA-CD 5.0 multichannel. 
              > > (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/4356) 
              > > This is the most “realistic” orchestral recording I’ve ever heard, but it most definitely won’t be to everyone’s taste. 
              > > When I say “most realistic,” what I mean is that I’ve never heard anything closer to the source than this recording.  And by “source," I don't mean an analogue master, nor a digital master, but a live concert, listened to from 10th row center at Verizon Hall.
              > >
              >
              > > This recording won’t do well on a system designed for “polite” playback levels. 
              >
            • Peter
              ... I also forgot to add. . . why did all those orchestral composers save the really BIG stuff til the end of the side? ________________________________ From:
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                > You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......
                I also forgot to add. . . why did all those orchestral composers save the really BIG stuff 'til the end of the side?

                From: Ted Rook <rooknrol@...>
                To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 1:18 PM
                Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Another recording nominee
                 
                You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......

                On 2 Apr 2013 at 10:01, Peter wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                >
                > > At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more
                > distant than
                > that served up by many big label recordings.
                > I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as
                > Fletcher Munson,"
                > which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels,
                > at least for
                > modern recordings.
                > By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl
                > on a friend's
                > system. Even though he takes good care of his records, I had
                > forgotten the joys
                > of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and
                > constricted
                > dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
                >

              • Will_H
                But there s a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there! Sent from my iPhone
                Message 7 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On 2013-04-02, at 1:18 PM, "Ted Rook" <rooknrol@...> wrote:

                  > You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......
                  >
                  >
                  > On 2 Apr 2013 at 10:01, Peter wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>> At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more
                  >> distant than
                  >> that served up by many big label recordings.
                  >> I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as
                  >> Fletcher Munson,"
                  >> which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels,
                  >> at least for
                  >> modern recordings.
                  >> By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl
                  >> on a friend's
                  >> system. Even though he takes good care of his records, I had
                  >> forgotten the joys
                  >> of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and
                  >> constricted
                  >> dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Peter
                  ... You re right.  All the vinyl I heard Sunday was used in the sense that somebody else owned it before Bob got it.   In any event, I think Bob s just
                  Message 8 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!

                    You're right.  All the vinyl I heard Sunday was "used" in the sense that somebody else owned it before Bob got it.
                     
                    In any event, I think Bob's just holding onto it until a former TAS reviewer stops back to pick it up.

                    From: Will_H <will_hum@...>
                    To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:30 PM
                    Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Another recording nominee
                     
                    But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On 2013-04-02, at 1:18 PM, "Ted Rook" <mailto:rooknrol%40warwick.net> wrote:

                    > You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......
                    >
                    >
                    > On 2 Apr 2013 at 10:01, Peter wrote:
                    >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more
                    >> distant than
                    >> that served up by many big label recordings.
                    >> I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as
                    >> Fletcher Munson,"
                    >> which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels,
                    >> at least for
                    >> modern recordings.
                    >> By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl
                    >> on a friend's
                    >> system. Even though he takes good care of his records, I had
                    >> forgotten the joys
                    >> of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and
                    >> constricted
                    >> dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Peter
                    Just to put these things in perspective, I still hold onto some old VHS tapes and Laser Discs for the simple reason that they haven t been upgraded to a newer,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Just to put these things in perspective, I still hold onto some old VHS tapes and Laser Discs for the simple reason that they haven't been upgraded to a newer, higher-resolution format.

                      From: Will_H <will_hum@...>
                      To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:30 PM
                      Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Another recording nominee
                       
                      But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On 2013-04-02, at 1:18 PM, "Ted Rook" <mailto:rooknrol%40warwick.net> wrote:

                      > You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......
                      >
                      >
                      > On 2 Apr 2013 at 10:01, Peter wrote:
                      >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>> At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more
                      >> distant than
                      >> that served up by many big label recordings.
                      >> I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as
                      >> Fletcher Munson,"
                      >> which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels,
                      >> at least for
                      >> modern recordings.
                      >> By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl
                      >> on a friend's
                      >> system. Even though he takes good care of his records, I had
                      >> forgotten the joys
                      >> of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and
                      >> constricted
                      >> dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Tom Mallin
                      The combination of a good record cleaning machine and the use of a modern line-contact stylus will remove most of the ticks and pops on even used records, as
                      Message 10 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The combination of a good record cleaning machine and the use of a modern line-contact stylus will remove most of the ticks and pops on even used records, as REG says.  That combination floats most of the crud out of the grooves and then the modern microridge stylus rides in a different spot along the groove wall than old conical and elliptical styli, making any actual groove wall damage less obvious.  

                        On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
                         

                        > But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!

                        You're right.  All the vinyl I heard Sunday was "used" in the sense that somebody else owned it before Bob got it.
                         
                        In any event, I think Bob's just holding onto it until a former TAS reviewer stops back to pick it up.

                        From: Will_H <will_hum@...>
                        To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:30 PM
                        Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Another recording nominee
                         
                        But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On 2013-04-02, at 1:18 PM, "Ted Rook" <mailto:rooknrol%40warwick.net> wrote:

                        > You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......
                        >
                        >
                        > On 2 Apr 2013 at 10:01, Peter wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>> At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more
                        >> distant than
                        >> that served up by many big label recordings.
                        >> I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as
                        >> Fletcher Munson,"
                        >> which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels,
                        >> at least for
                        >> modern recordings.
                        >> By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl
                        >> on a friend's
                        >> system. Even though he takes good care of his records, I had
                        >> forgotten the joys
                        >> of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and
                        >> constricted
                        >> dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >


                      • Edward Mast
                        I don t think there s anyone on this forum who would want to go back to pre-digital days. But Tom s correct in saying cleaning machines and modern styluses
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I don't think there's anyone on this forum who would want to go back to pre-digital days.  But Tom's correct in saying cleaning machines and modern styluses make reasonably quiet vinyl possible.  There's much wonderful music in very good performances sitting on my record shelves, and pace Ted, I don't mind a bit getting up to turn a record over after twenty minutes.  Actually, I prefer getting up every twenty minutes or so to sitting motionless for eighty minutes.  Active listening can be both taxing and invigorating, and a brief break (about 20 seconds?) occasionally, seems to me a good thing.  But as always, each to his or her own.

                          Ned


                        • HM
                          The opposite is the case, IMO. The lowest detection of damaged grooves or dirt in the groove is achieved by the conical stylus. This can be seen from this
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 2, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The opposite is the case, IMO.
                            The lowest detection of damaged grooves or dirt in the groove is achieved by the conical stylus.
                            This can be seen from this picture:
                            http://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/stylus_shapes/diferenciaentreagujas.jpg
                            Optimized stylus shapes aim for minimum expansion in the tangent orientation, see
                            http://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/stylus_shapes/quadrahedral3871664.jpg
                            So to keep surface pressure low they must expand in the vertical contact area, not leaving out any groove problem caused by any earlier stylus tracking the groove.

                            Keeping contact area big reduces friction and future record wear.
                            http://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/stylus_shapes/Stylidiagrams.jpg
                            I would use such advanced stylii for new records only. Second hand records with unknown past I better play with a conical stylus.
                            BR HM

                            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The combination of a good record cleaning machine and the use of a modern
                            > line-contact stylus will remove most of the ticks and pops on even used
                            > records, as REG says. That combination floats most of the crud out of the
                            > grooves and then the modern microridge stylus rides in a different spot
                            > along the groove wall than old conical and elliptical styli, making any
                            > actual groove wall damage less obvious.
                            >
                            > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!
                            > >
                            > > You're right. All the vinyl I heard Sunday was "used" in the sense that
                            > > somebody else owned it before Bob got it.
                            > >
                            > > In any event, I think Bob's just holding onto it until a former TAS
                            > > reviewer stops back to pick it up.
                            > >
                            > > *From:* Will_H <will_hum@...>
                            > > *To:* "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:30 PM
                            > > *Subject:* Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Another recording nominee
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > > But there's a goldmine of cheap vinyl out there!
                            > >
                            > > Sent from my iPhone
                            > >
                            > > On 2013-04-02, at 1:18 PM, "Ted Rook" <mailto:rooknrol%40warwick.net<rooknrol%40warwick.net>>
                            > > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > You left out, only twenty minutes before you have to turn it over.......
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On 2 Apr 2013 at 10:01, Peter wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>> At my usual "polite" playback levels, the perspective seems more
                            > > >> distant than
                            > > >> that served up by many big label recordings.
                            > > >> I think this may be a function of "the curve formerly known as
                            > > >> Fletcher Munson,"
                            > > >> which is one of the main reasons I prefer realistic playback levels,
                            > > >> at least for
                            > > >> modern recordings.
                            > > >> By the way, over the weekend I had a chance to listen to some vinyl
                            > > >> on a friend's
                            > > >> system. Even though he takes good care of his records, I had
                            > > >> forgotten the joys
                            > > >> of listening to ticks, and pops, and scratches, and hiss, and
                            > > >> constricted
                            > > >> dynamics, and ground-loop hum (only through the phono input).
                            > > >>
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > ****
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Robert
                            I surely agree with this. Of course digital properly done works better. But life is short. There is a lot of music available for very low prices on vinyl--I
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 3, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I surely agree with this. Of course
                              digital properly done works better.
                              But life is short. There is a lot
                              of music available for very low prices
                              on vinyl--I typically pay $1 or $2
                              per record. And very good and interesting
                              music ,too.
                              It is really audiophilia unchecked and
                              out of control to suppose that music
                              is only interesting in multichannel digital
                              or the like. The vinyl heritage is a huge
                              storehouse of interesting music.
                              And while hearing some standard rep
                              piece in ideal sound can be very gratifying,
                              trying out unfamiliar music or an unsual
                              and previously unknown performance for $1
                              is surely an intriguing prospect to my mind.

                              I hope it is obvious that I am interested
                              in how to reproduce ideal sound, or as close
                              to that as one can get. But the real musical
                              truth is that hearing the Saint Saens Organ Symphony
                              is not high on my musical priority list.
                              Intriguing perhaps to hear it sound particularly
                              good--and I do like the piece--but musically
                              this is a bit, how shall I say it, over-familiar.

                              There is a big wide world out there of wonderful
                              new(to one's self and/or new to the world) music
                              and however one can hear it is worthwhile.
                              I listen to a lot of things on YouTube!

                              Audio is one thing, music another. When they
                              fit together, fine. But one would have to
                              be something of a musical "dummy dog"(what
                              we call the dogs on the rare occasions that
                              they do something wrong) to turn down the chance
                              to hear some interesting music because it was
                              on vinyl. Not to mention an old favorite.
                              (How often I have listened to Novaes on Vox vinyl--
                              pops and all).

                              A lot of musical people feel that things like
                              multichannel surround are a kind of gimmick, a distraction
                              from actually hearing the music. As a review in
                              The Absolute Sound said about some high tech ultra
                              audiophile digital-processed recording some years ago
                              "Mr. Mozart, he dead"

                              REG
                              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Edward Mast <nedmast2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I don't think there's anyone on this forum who would want to go back to pre-digital days. But Tom's correct in saying cleaning machines and modern styluses make reasonably quiet vinyl possible. There's much wonderful music in very good performances sitting on my record shelves, and pace Ted, I don't mind a bit getting up to turn a record over after twenty minutes. Actually, I prefer getting up every twenty minutes or so to sitting motionless for eighty minutes. Active listening can be both taxing and invigorating, and a brief break (about 20 seconds?) occasionally, seems to me a good thing. But as always, each to his or her own.
                              >
                              > Ned
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.