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Gradient Active Revolution Set Up as of March 3, 2013

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  • thomasmallin
    I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 3, 2013
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      I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.

      The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.

      This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.

      I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
    • thomasmallin
      P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 3, 2013
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        P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc

        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" <tmallin4@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
        >
        > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
        >
        > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
        >
        > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
        >
      • jpaia@ymail.com
        What happen to the Sanders speakers?
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 3, 2013
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          What happen to the Sanders speakers?

          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" <tmallin4@...> wrote:
          >
          > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
          >
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
          >
          > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" <tmallin4@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
          > >
          > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
          > >
          > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
          > >
          > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
          > >
          >
        • kevindoyle.forum
          Looking good, TM. My only concern is that you may not have enough power....maybe you should get another Magtech or two? :) I have yet to try the EDO on my
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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            Looking good, TM. My only concern is that you may not have enough power....maybe you should get another Magtech or two? :)

            I have yet to try the EDO on my Touch. There's a noticeable difference between the SPDIF and EDO USB outputs, even with redbook files and streaming sources through the DAC on the Oppo? Or is it primarily with 192k?

            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" <tmallin4@...> wrote:
            >
            > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
            >
            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" <tmallin4@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
            > >
            > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
            > >
            > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
            > >
            > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
            > >
            >
          • Tom Mallin
            I sold them.
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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              I sold them.

              On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "jpaia@..." <jpaia@...> wrote:

               

              What happen to the Sanders speakers?

              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
              >
              > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
              >
              > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
              > >
              > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
              > >
              > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
              > >
              > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
              > >
              > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
              > >
              >

            • Tom Mallin
              There is a noticeable difference in sound quality, I think, even through the analog outputs and even on ordinary internet radio stations, which is all I use my
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                There is a noticeable difference in sound quality, I think, even through the analog outputs and even on ordinary internet radio stations, which is all I use my several Squeezebox Touches for at this point.  Even those systems (bedroom, kitchen, office) where I have no available digital connection between the Touch and the preamp seem to benefit from EDO.  I have no idea what the effects are on high resolution material streamed from a local server.

                Unfortunately, it takes about a minute to switch back and forth between EDO and the stock software, so A/B testing is a little less reliable.  The primary differences are increased clarity, smoother high frequencies, and a more "relaxed" feel for the reproduction.  There is less awareness that you are listening to low-bit-rate reproduction, in other words.

                Some of the tweaks, especially the buffer tuning options, also seem to improve the three-dimensionality of the reproduction.  I was not able to use the very large buffer option until I switched over to the USB connection.   There was a surprising-to-me increase in stage depth between the very large and large buffer tuning option in the Gradient system, and the large is a worthwhile improvement in that respect over the default buffer tuning.

                I'd like to stress that the Squeezebox Touch in stock form sounds remarkably fine in this internet radio application, from any of its outputs, analog or digital.  The tweaks I'm mentioning just gild the lily.  They are easily reversible.  And, best of all, they are easy and FREE.

                On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 2:29 AM, kevindoyle.forum <doyle.kevin@...> wrote:
                 

                Looking good, TM. My only concern is that you may not have enough power....maybe you should get another Magtech or two? :)

                I have yet to try the EDO on my Touch. There's a noticeable difference between the SPDIF and EDO USB outputs, even with redbook files and streaming sources through the DAC on the Oppo? Or is it primarily with 192k?

                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                >
                > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                >
                > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                > >
                > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                > >
                > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                > >
                > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                > >
                > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                > >
                >


              • Ted Rook
                Interesting to see the latest developments Tom, is the chair at the listening position? It seems to be in a much less nearfield location than used to be the
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                  Interesting to see the latest developments Tom, is the chair at the listening position? It seems
                  to be in a much less "nearfield location" than used to be the case with the Harbeths.

                  On 4 Mar 2013 at 5:22, thomasmallin wrote:

                  > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/
                  > pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&di
                  > r=asc
                  >
                  > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" <tmallin4@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is
                  > gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105
                  > is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden
                  > speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the
                  > DualCore. EQ will come first.
                  > >
                  > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra
                  > tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via
                  > SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin
                  > Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and
                  > Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog
                  > outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech
                  > Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the
                  > volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                  > >
                  > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the
                  > DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent
                  > hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't
                  > like hiss.
                  > >
                  > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software
                  > tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding
                  > streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler
                  > sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software
                  > from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large
                  > buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select
                  > manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty
                  > seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet
                  > connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Tom Mallin
                  Yes, the chair is in the current listening position. The speakers are at the 1/3 room length, 1/5 and 4/5 room width positions and the listening spot is at
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                    Yes, the chair is in the current listening position.  The speakers are at the 1/3 room length, 1/5 and 4/5 room width positions and the listening spot is at 2/3 room length and 1/2 room width.  With this chair, my ears are about 38" above the floor, which is a bit above the 35" tweeter height, but (oddly, to me) this sounds best with the Revolutions.  This positioning yields about 60 degrees of separation between the Revs, as viewed from the listening position.  As with the Sanders, the stage seems plenty wide enough at this position and dipole bass works well in terms of maximum extension with the listener and speakers so arranged.  This was true of the dipole bass Carver Amazings, Orions, and Legacy Whisper as well. Still, I may try nearer field in the future.

                    The Harbeths work well with this position as well since I got the new thicker (now 4") Sonex on the walls.  That said, with the M40.1s, I think the gains of listening closer are greater with the Harbeth than with a speaker which has a more controlled high frequency dispersion like the Sanders, Gradients, or even the Spendor SP1/2, at least if the speakers are oriented to fire down the long dimension of this fairly narrow (12' 8.5") room.  If the speakers are oriented the other way, to fire across the width, you automatically end up with quite near-field listening if you keep the speakers and listening position even four feet away from the walls behind them.

                    The photos are not totally clear about the woofer stacks.  There are two, one for each channel.  I couldn't get the whole array in the picture with any of my cameras; I couldn't get back quite far enough and didn't have a wider angle lens.  There are a total of eight 12" woofers on each side, two in each Revolution, and six in each SW-T woofer tower.

                    Each of the four Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps is fed from a separate 30-amp circuit, the outlets for which are spaced around the wall at the speaker end of the room.  That's why the blue power cords go in various directions.  The digital front-end electronics are fed from a fifth 30-amp circuit near the Arcici Suspense equipment rack.  The Gradient HE crossover, which is strictly analog, is fed from a sixth 30-amp circuit, the outlets for which are behind the CD rack nearest the Arcici.

                    The Revolution head units (concentric midrange and tweeter) are each fed from a separate monobloc amp.  The bass monobloc amps connect to the woofer towers.  The towers are in turn connected to the woofer section of the Revolutions.  The woofer sections are all connected in series, making for about a 16 ohm load in the bass.  There are a total of six speaker cables involved.   

                    On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
                     

                    Interesting to see the latest developments Tom, is the chair at the listening position? It seems
                    to be in a much less "nearfield location" than used to be the case with the Harbeths.

                    On 4 Mar 2013 at 5:22, thomasmallin wrote:

                    > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/
                    > pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&di
                    > r=asc
                    >
                    > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin"
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is
                    > gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105
                    > is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden
                    > speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the
                    > DualCore. EQ will come first.
                    > >
                    > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra
                    > tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via
                    > SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin
                    > Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and
                    > Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog
                    > outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech
                    > Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the
                    > volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                    > >
                    > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the
                    > DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent
                    > hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't
                    > like hiss.
                    > >
                    > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software
                    > tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding
                    > streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler
                    > sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software
                    > from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large
                    > buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select
                    > manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty
                    > seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet
                    > connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >


                  • neuromudfud
                    This looks like a spectacular setup. I was very enthused by the sound of the passive Revolutions when run as a trinaural system in a member of this forum s
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                      This looks like a spectacular setup. I was very enthused by the sound of the passive Revolutions when run as a trinaural system in a member of this forum's listening space.

                      If you don't mind, I have a question. Given that you are using the anti-mode 2.0, did you consider using it as your crossover and taking the Gradient HE out of the signal path?

                      Best,
                      Chris Min

                      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                      >
                      > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                      >
                      > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                      >
                      > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                      >
                    • Tom Mallin
                      The Gradient HE Crossover is not entirely quiescent noise free, whereas the TacT produced no added hiss/hum at all. While it s hard to judge the other
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                        The Gradient HE Crossover is not entirely quiescent noise free, whereas the TacT produced no added hiss/hum at all.  While it's hard to judge the other qualities of the electronics used, certainly the Gradient crossover with the Revs or with the Revs plus SW-Ts seems to do a very good job of blending the bass end with the head unit.  The Gradient crossover also does a very nice job of giving you flat response to 20 Hz and then rolling off pretty quickly below that with minimal fuss.

                        There is not just one setting available in the Gradient crossover.  There is a continuously variable overall volume control for the entire bass end, plus a variable Q setting.  The effective crossover thus varies somewhat with the settings.  The Gradient crossover probably also applies a degree of low-bass boost.  Assuming I want maximum bass extension, I just choose the high Q setting with a switch and then rotate the volume knob for best overall balance.  That took less than five minutes of listening to do and I have never felt the need to fiddle with those settings since.  

                        While my chosen response can probably be implemented with the DualCore's controls, it would probably not be straightforward due to the need to limit infrasonic boost to the dipole woofers to prevent them from being overdriven.  I would have to experiment with combinations of the DualCore's bass boost and infrasonic filtering controls.     

                        It's also not entirely clear to me whether a single DualCore can do both a high-pass and low-pass crossover in a 2.2 system like this.  I have been told that a more sophisticated unit is in the works that would handle such.  Alternatively, perhaps two DualCores could be daisy-chained together if/when the provision for such linking is implemented.  Maybe a single DualCore can do it if the left and right channels are treated identically.  I will have to inquire further.  Another DualCore owner I know has not yet been able to implement both a high- and low-pass crossover with it.  It may be limited to either a high-pass or a low-pass. That works with systems where the controls on the powered subs could handle the low-pass crossover, but it would not work with the Revolution + SW-Ts since the SW-Ts have no amps or controls in/on them.

                        Another problem with using the DualCore to implement the actual crossover between the woofers and head unit is that apparently the Gradient HE crossover specs are considered somewhat proprietary.  I asked for the specs so I could try implementing them with my TacT, but got no response.  

                        On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:16 PM, neuromudfud <min@...> wrote:
                         

                        This looks like a spectacular setup. I was very enthused by the sound of the passive Revolutions when run as a trinaural system in a member of this forum's listening space.

                        If you don't mind, I have a question. Given that you are using the anti-mode 2.0, did you consider using it as your crossover and taking the Gradient HE out of the signal path?

                        Best,
                        Chris Min

                        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                        >
                        > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                        >
                        > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                        >
                        > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                        >
                        > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                        >


                      • neuromudfud
                        Hi Tom, As usual, your response is incredibly thorough and informative. Most of us can only fantasize about the solutions you implement for your audio, and it
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                          Hi Tom,

                          As usual, your response is incredibly thorough and informative. Most of us can only fantasize about the solutions you implement for your audio, and it is enlightening to hear about the thought process you've gone through in considering the limitations of the equipment.

                          I have a much simpler task that I'm consider for the Dual Core (straightforward pair of M30s plus a pair of powered subs) that the unit is probably well-suited for.

                          Kind regards,
                          Chris Min

                          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The Gradient HE Crossover is not entirely quiescent noise free, whereas the
                          > TacT produced no added hiss/hum at all. While it's hard to judge the other
                          > qualities of the electronics used, certainly the Gradient crossover with
                          > the Revs or with the Revs plus SW-Ts seems to do a very good job of
                          > blending the bass end with the head unit. The Gradient crossover also does
                          > a very nice job of giving you flat response to 20 Hz and then rolling off
                          > pretty quickly below that with minimal fuss.
                          >
                          > There is not just one setting available in the Gradient crossover. There
                          > is a continuously variable overall volume control for the entire bass end,
                          > plus a variable Q setting. The effective crossover thus varies somewhat
                          > with the settings. The Gradient crossover probably also applies a degree
                          > of low-bass boost. Assuming I want maximum bass extension, I just choose
                          > the high Q setting with a switch and then rotate the volume knob for best
                          > overall balance. That took less than five minutes of listening to do and I
                          > have never felt the need to fiddle with those settings since.
                          >
                          > While my chosen response can probably be implemented with the DualCore's
                          > controls, it would probably not be straightforward due to the need to limit
                          > infrasonic boost to the dipole woofers to prevent them from being
                          > overdriven. I would have to experiment with combinations of the DualCore's
                          > bass boost and infrasonic filtering controls.
                          >
                          > It's also not entirely clear to me whether a single DualCore can do both a
                          > high-pass and low-pass crossover in a 2.2 system like this. I have been
                          > told that a more sophisticated unit is in the works that would handle such.
                          > Alternatively, perhaps two DualCores could be daisy-chained together
                          > if/when the provision for such linking is implemented. Maybe a single
                          > DualCore can do it if the left and right channels are treated identically.
                          > I will have to inquire further. Another DualCore owner I know has not yet
                          > been able to implement both a high- and low-pass crossover with it. It may
                          > be limited to either a high-pass or a low-pass. That works with systems
                          > where the controls on the powered subs could handle the low-pass crossover,
                          > but it would not work with the Revolution + SW-Ts since the SW-Ts have no
                          > amps or controls in/on them.
                          >
                          > Another problem with using the DualCore to implement the actual crossover
                          > between the woofers and head unit is that apparently the Gradient HE
                          > crossover specs are considered somewhat proprietary. I asked for the specs
                          > so I could try implementing them with my TacT, but got no response.
                          >
                          > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:16 PM, neuromudfud <min@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > This looks like a spectacular setup. I was very enthused by the sound of
                          > > the passive Revolutions when run as a trinaural system in a member of this
                          > > forum's listening space.
                          > >
                          > > If you don't mind, I have a question. Given that you are using the
                          > > anti-mode 2.0, did you consider using it as your crossover and taking the
                          > > Gradient HE out of the signal path?
                          > >
                          > > Best,
                          > > Chris Min
                          > >
                          > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The
                          > > DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more
                          > > weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs
                          > > and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                          > > >
                          > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra
                          > > tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF
                          > > coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The
                          > > Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass
                          > > Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE
                          > > crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced
                          > > cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed
                          > > at 100%.
                          > > >
                          > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore
                          > > and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven
                          > > by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                          > > >
                          > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to
                          > > the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for
                          > > internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing
                          > > the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power
                          > > during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB
                          > > output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after
                          > > thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet
                          > > connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • kevingan3
                          That is quite a stereo! It made me wonder about the point-source imaging of concentric driver speakers as compared to the point source (or simulated point
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 5, 2013
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                            That is quite a stereo!

                            It made me wonder about the point-source imaging of concentric driver speakers as compared to the point source (or simulated point source) imaging of the big Quads. Do people find that the dynamic implementations of coaxial drivers (Tannoy, Kef, Gradient) avoid the problem that REG refers to as "listening through a slit" with the Quads?

                            I have Tannoys myself, and I never noticed the slit problem--they put the sound into the room in a way that seems quite like multi-driver speakers, except more "coherently"--that's a vague word for a subtle effect. The main advantage I've found besides the subtle coherence effect (which I learned to love in my original Quad 57s) is that they allow more freedom in listening position, and sound less imbalanced no matter where you are in the room.

                            If concentric drivers in general do avoid the "slit", though, I wonder why that is?

                            Kevin

                            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes, the chair is in the current listening position. The speakers are at
                            > the 1/3 room length, 1/5 and 4/5 room width positions and the listening
                            > spot is at 2/3 room length and 1/2 room width. With this chair, my ears
                            > are about 38" above the floor, which is a bit above the 35" tweeter height,
                            > but (oddly, to me) this sounds best with the Revolutions. This positioning
                            > yields about 60 degrees of separation between the Revs, as viewed from the
                            > listening position. As with the Sanders, the stage seems plenty wide
                            > enough at this position and dipole bass works well in terms of maximum
                            > extension with the listener and speakers so arranged. This was true of the
                            > dipole bass Carver Amazings, Orions, and Legacy Whisper as well. Still, I
                            > may try nearer field in the future.
                            >
                            > The Harbeths work well with this position as well since I got the new
                            > thicker (now 4") Sonex on the walls. That said, with the M40.1s, I think
                            > the gains of listening closer are greater with the Harbeth than with a
                            > speaker which has a more controlled high frequency dispersion like the
                            > Sanders, Gradients, or even the Spendor SP1/2, at least if the speakers are
                            > oriented to fire down the long dimension of this fairly narrow (12' 8.5")
                            > room. If the speakers are oriented the other way, to fire across the
                            > width, you automatically end up with quite near-field listening if you keep
                            > the speakers and listening position even four feet away from the walls
                            > behind them.
                            >
                          • Tom Mallin
                            I do hear the Revs as not creating as much of the vertical scale of images or height illusion as, say, the M40/40.1, much less the Legacy Audio Whisper I once
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 5, 2013
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                              I do hear the Revs as not creating as much of the vertical scale of images or height illusion as, say, the M40/40.1, much less the Legacy Audio Whisper I once owned. I don't find this disturbing, though. 

                              A "line source" like the Sanders sounds even taller than either of those, but the vertical scale of images or height illues varies a bit from moment to moment, depending on what is playing.  That is one of the downsides of a tall sound source.  Sometimes the sound tends to "climb" up the panel, especially when you listen from fairly close up.  You can minimize the effect by listening from fairly high up, with your ears at least as high as the vertical middle of the panel.

                              I minimize the Revs "slit effect" in two ways.  First, by careful choice of listening height.  I like 38" best, which seems odd to me since I usually like to sit a bit below a speaker's tweeter and the tweeter center is only 35" above the floor.  At that listening height, the images and stage appear right in front of my ears/eyes and have enough vertical height not to sound like they are coming from a horizontal slit.  Second, it helps to not damp the ceiling at the first reflection point.  Since the concentric drivers are angled upward, there is probably a bit of ceiling reflection in play which could stretch the vertical axis just a bit.  

                              And, as you say, the coaxial midrange/tweeter does seem to produce an unusually satisfying sense of coherence, a coherence I did not hear with the Gradient 1.3 or 1.5, as good as those are.  The M40/40.1 drivers are coherent in the sense that I can't hear them out as separate sound sources even from as close up as two feet.  But with the Revolution, that coherence is a sense of focus which few speakers with "strung out" drivers have.  The Quad 63 has it, too.  I've also heard it from such mundane speakers as the single-driver speakers (4" ceramic) in my JVC FS 7000 mini-system I use in my kitchen.  If I put those speakers at the edge of the kitchen counter and get my ears down even with them and within two feet of the plane of the speakers with the speakers subtending a reasonable stereo angle, the sense of focus and 3-D staging is astounding.

                              It could be that arranging the drivers from top down in order of tweeter, mid, woofer aids in the height and vertical scale illusion, but sacrifices just a bit of ultimate focus/coherence.  With speakers of the caliber of the M40/40.1 and Gradient Revolution, though, you get plenty enough of both coherence and vertical scale, although the Harbeth definitely has more vertical scale and the Gradient more coherence.   





                              On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 4:05 PM, kevingan3 <kevin.egan@...> wrote:
                               



                              That is quite a stereo!

                              It made me wonder about the point-source imaging of concentric driver speakers as compared to the point source (or simulated point source) imaging of the big Quads. Do people find that the dynamic implementations of coaxial drivers (Tannoy, Kef, Gradient) avoid the problem that REG refers to as "listening through a slit" with the Quads?

                              I have Tannoys myself, and I never noticed the slit problem--they put the sound into the room in a way that seems quite like multi-driver speakers, except more "coherently"--that's a vague word for a subtle effect. The main advantage I've found besides the subtle coherence effect (which I learned to love in my original Quad 57s) is that they allow more freedom in listening position, and sound less imbalanced no matter where you are in the room.

                              If concentric drivers in general do avoid the "slit", though, I wonder why that is?

                              Kevin

                              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                              >
                              > Yes, the chair is in the current listening position. The speakers are at
                              > the 1/3 room length, 1/5 and 4/5 room width positions and the listening
                              > spot is at 2/3 room length and 1/2 room width. With this chair, my ears
                              > are about 38" above the floor, which is a bit above the 35" tweeter height,
                              > but (oddly, to me) this sounds best with the Revolutions. This positioning
                              > yields about 60 degrees of separation between the Revs, as viewed from the
                              > listening position. As with the Sanders, the stage seems plenty wide
                              > enough at this position and dipole bass works well in terms of maximum
                              > extension with the listener and speakers so arranged. This was true of the
                              > dipole bass Carver Amazings, Orions, and Legacy Whisper as well. Still, I
                              > may try nearer field in the future.
                              >
                              > The Harbeths work well with this position as well since I got the new
                              > thicker (now 4") Sonex on the walls. That said, with the M40.1s, I think
                              > the gains of listening closer are greater with the Harbeth than with a
                              > speaker which has a more controlled high frequency dispersion like the
                              > Sanders, Gradients, or even the Spendor SP1/2, at least if the speakers are
                              > oriented to fire down the long dimension of this fairly narrow (12' 8.5")
                              > room. If the speakers are oriented the other way, to fire across the
                              > width, you automatically end up with quite near-field listening if you keep
                              > the speakers and listening position even four feet away from the walls
                              > behind them.
                              >


                            • jpaia@ymail.com
                              Good luck with your new Gradient Active Revolutions. Suggest you try some of these at the first reflection points, on the ceiling above your listening position
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 5, 2013
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                                Good luck with your new Gradient Active Revolutions.

                                Suggest you try some of these at the first reflection points, on the ceiling above your listening position and on the back wall.

                                http://www.srlacoustics.com/grid-diffuser-qty-2/

                                REG should also try them on his ceiling instead of that ugly foam.:-)


                                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I sold them.
                                >
                                > On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "jpaia@..." <jpaia@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > What happen to the Sanders speakers?
                                > >
                                > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                                > > >
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Robert
                                You get used to the foam--and the room is beyond visual help anyway. After all, it is home to 200+ pounds of dog(two dogs, 95 and 118 pounds respectively),
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                  You get used to the foam--and the room is beyond
                                  visual help anyway. After all, it is home to
                                  200+ pounds of dog(two dogs, 95 and 118 pounds
                                  respectively), whose idea of a good time is
                                  to shred newspapers. (Fortunately, they have a clear
                                  idea that shredding audio equipment is not to be done!)
                                  Also, I was/am really interested in absorbing sound
                                  not diffusing it.

                                  Diffusors have their uses, that is for sure.
                                  But one wants to diffuse the later sound, not the early
                                  reflections. If you diffuse the early reflections, one
                                  gets imaging that is,well, diffuse. Diffusors belong elsewhere,
                                  to make the later reflections into diffuse sound field so one
                                  gets very far from having slap echoes and so on.
                                  Of course, one might like the result of making diffuse sound
                                  part of the early arrivals. One can experiment.
                                  But it defocuses stereo imaging in a big way. Be forewarned!
                                  REG


                                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jpaia@..." <jpaia@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Good luck with your new Gradient Active Revolutions.
                                  >
                                  > Suggest you try some of these at the first reflection points, on the ceiling above your listening position and on the back wall.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.srlacoustics.com/grid-diffuser-qty-2/
                                  >
                                  > REG should also try them on his ceiling instead of that ugly foam.:-)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I sold them.
                                  > >
                                  > > On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "jpaia@" <jpaia@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > What happen to the Sanders speakers?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Tom Mallin
                                  I agree. I like the way absorption helps imaging much more than diffusion at the early reflection points. Diffusion is certainly better than a flat painted
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                    I agree.  I like the way absorption helps imaging much more than diffusion at the early reflection points.  Diffusion is certainly better than a flat painted wall, but absorption sounds better and in terms of dedicated acoustical products is usually way cheaper per square foot.  I could get away with diffusion at the first reflection points on the wall behind the listening chair since that wall is 13 feet or so from the speakers.  But even there Sonex works just fine and certainly does not "overdeaden" the room.  And with the beamy Sanders, absorbing sound from the top half of that wall with Sonex made a huge improvement both in imaging and in reducing perceived brightness at the listening position.

                                    I did like the sound of Mark Levinson's Cello company's room in New York where he had his piano.  That room was at least 30' x 40' and the room's walls and ceiling were entirely covered with RPG Skyline diffusers which are considerably more expensive yet than the linked product.  So, yes, diffusion can work, but the price is very high per square foot.  

                                    I also noticed that the weight of the recommended diffuser was 75 pounds for 2' x 4' of the stuff, or 37.5 pounds for 2' x 2'.  That's pretty heavy stuff to be mounting on the ceiling.  It MIGHT work with a drop ceiling grid, but the grid would have to be very heavy duty indeed.  Ordinary 2' x 2' acoustical tiles weigh less than five pounds and that size piece of Sonex is a pound at most.  With Sonex, I can staple it to the ceiling and it will never come down and hit me on the head.  I don't have a drop ceiling grid in my audio room.  The ceiling is drywall.  I would not like to try to mount something which weighs 37.5 pounds to drywall above my head.  Just holding it up there while you fasten it somehow would be a two-person job.  

                                    On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Robert <regtas43@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    You get used to the foam--and the room is beyond
                                    visual help anyway. After all, it is home to
                                    200+ pounds of dog(two dogs, 95 and 118 pounds
                                    respectively), whose idea of a good time is
                                    to shred newspapers. (Fortunately, they have a clear
                                    idea that shredding audio equipment is not to be done!)
                                    Also, I was/am really interested in absorbing sound
                                    not diffusing it.

                                    Diffusors have their uses, that is for sure.
                                    But one wants to diffuse the later sound, not the early
                                    reflections. If you diffuse the early reflections, one
                                    gets imaging that is,well, diffuse. Diffusors belong elsewhere,
                                    to make the later reflections into diffuse sound field so one
                                    gets very far from having slap echoes and so on.
                                    Of course, one might like the result of making diffuse sound
                                    part of the early arrivals. One can experiment.
                                    But it defocuses stereo imaging in a big way. Be forewarned!
                                    REG

                                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jpaia@..." wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Good luck with your new Gradient Active Revolutions.
                                    >
                                    > Suggest you try some of these at the first reflection points, on the ceiling above your listening position and on the back wall.
                                    >
                                    > http://www.srlacoustics.com/grid-diffuser-qty-2/
                                    >
                                    > REG should also try them on his ceiling instead of that ugly foam.:-)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I sold them.
                                    > >
                                    > > On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "jpaia@" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > What happen to the Sanders speakers?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed at 100%.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >


                                  • jpaia@ymail.com
                                    The weight shown on the website isn t correct. The shipping weight is really 15 pounds and a 2 x 2 disfuser is under 5 pounds. If you re interested, contact
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                      The weight shown on the website isn't correct.

                                      The shipping weight is really 15 pounds and a 2' x 2' disfuser is
                                      under 5 pounds.

                                      If you're interested, contact SRL and they'll give a shipping quote
                                      based on your zip code.

                                      Also, read the product reviews like this one:

                                      "For kicks I placed them at my first sidewall reflections to see what would happen as I normally use absorption panels. Talk about a huge stage now and the bottom end has a lot more punch(which surprised me). Also it seems more of the instruments have more of their own space and yet locked onto the stage."

                                      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I agree. I like the way absorption helps imaging much more than diffusion
                                      > at the early reflection points. Diffusion is certainly better than a flat
                                      > painted wall, but absorption sounds better and in terms of dedicated
                                      > acoustical products is usually way cheaper per square foot. I could get
                                      > away with diffusion at the first reflection points on the wall behind the
                                      > listening chair since that wall is 13 feet or so from the speakers. But
                                      > even there Sonex works just fine and certainly does not "overdeaden" the
                                      > room. And with the beamy Sanders, absorbing sound from the top half of
                                      > that wall with Sonex made a huge improvement both in imaging and in
                                      > reducing perceived brightness at the listening position.
                                      >
                                      > I did like the sound of Mark Levinson's Cello company's room in New York
                                      > where he had his piano. That room was at least 30' x 40' and the room's
                                      > walls and ceiling were entirely covered with RPG Skyline diffusers which
                                      > are considerably more expensive yet than the linked product. So, yes,
                                      > diffusion can work, but the price is very high per square foot.
                                      >
                                      > I also noticed that the weight of the recommended diffuser was 75 pounds
                                      > for 2' x 4' of the stuff, or 37.5 pounds for 2' x 2'. That's pretty heavy
                                      > stuff to be mounting on the ceiling. It MIGHT work with a drop ceiling
                                      > grid, but the grid would have to be very heavy duty indeed. Ordinary 2' x
                                      > 2' acoustical tiles weigh less than five pounds and that size piece of
                                      > Sonex is a pound at most. With Sonex, I can staple it to the ceiling and
                                      > it will never come down and hit me on the head. I don't have a drop
                                      > ceiling grid in my audio room. The ceiling is drywall. I would not like
                                      > to try to mount something which weighs 37.5 pounds to drywall above my
                                      > head. Just holding it up there while you fasten it somehow would be a
                                      > two-person job.
                                      >
                                      > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Robert <regtas43@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > You get used to the foam--and the room is beyond
                                      > > visual help anyway. After all, it is home to
                                      > > 200+ pounds of dog(two dogs, 95 and 118 pounds
                                      > > respectively), whose idea of a good time is
                                      > > to shred newspapers. (Fortunately, they have a clear
                                      > > idea that shredding audio equipment is not to be done!)
                                      > > Also, I was/am really interested in absorbing sound
                                      > > not diffusing it.
                                      > >
                                      > > Diffusors have their uses, that is for sure.
                                      > > But one wants to diffuse the later sound, not the early
                                      > > reflections. If you diffuse the early reflections, one
                                      > > gets imaging that is,well, diffuse. Diffusors belong elsewhere,
                                      > > to make the later reflections into diffuse sound field so one
                                      > > gets very far from having slap echoes and so on.
                                      > > Of course, one might like the result of making diffuse sound
                                      > > part of the early arrivals. One can experiment.
                                      > > But it defocuses stereo imaging in a big way. Be forewarned!
                                      > > REG
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jpaia@" wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Good luck with your new Gradient Active Revolutions.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Suggest you try some of these at the first reflection points, on the
                                      > > ceiling above your listening position and on the back wall.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://www.srlacoustics.com/grid-diffuser-qty-2/
                                      > > >
                                      > > > REG should also try them on his ceiling instead of that ugly foam.:-)
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I sold them.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "jpaia@" wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > What happen to the Sanders speakers?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is
                                      > > gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is
                                      > > shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables
                                      > > out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come
                                      > > first.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my
                                      > > DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo
                                      > > via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold
                                      > > USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek
                                      > > Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the
                                      > > Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via
                                      > > balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume
                                      > > is fixed at 100%.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the
                                      > > DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss
                                      > > when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software
                                      > > tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming
                                      > > device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking.
                                      > > I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid
                                      > > low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for
                                      > > the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen
                                      > > off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an
                                      > > ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Bomwell, Alan
                                      In the past several days I have begun diffusing (using medium curved diffusers from Acoustic Geometry) the first lateral reflections from the speakers nearest
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 6, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        In the past several days I have begun diffusing (using medium curved diffusers from Acoustic Geometry) the first lateral reflections from the speakers nearest the side walls. The first reflections of the opposite wall speaker (the left-wall reflection of right speaker, for example), the ceiling, and wall behind the chair are absorbed. I rather like the sense of spaciousness this yields. And for some reason, I also have noticed a subjective increase in bass punch. The slight loss of image focus doesn't seem to bother me as it more or less replicates what I'm used to in a concert hall in that regard. I may tire of this after a while, but for now I am enjoying it very much!

                                        Al

                                         
                                        From: jpaia@... [mailto:jpaia@...]
                                        Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 03:08 PM
                                        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Gradient Active Revolution Set Up as of March 3, 2013
                                         
                                         



                                        The weight shown on the website isn't correct.

                                        The shipping weight is really 15 pounds and a 2' x 2' disfuser is
                                        under 5 pounds.

                                        If you're interested, contact SRL and they'll give a shipping quote
                                        based on your zip code.

                                        Also, read the product reviews like this one:

                                        "For kicks I placed them at my first sidewall reflections to see what would happen as I normally use absorption panels. Talk about a huge stage now and the bottom end has a lot more punch(which surprised me). Also it seems more of the instruments have more of their own space and yet locked onto the stage."

                                        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I agree. I like the way absorption helps imaging much more than diffusion
                                        > at the early reflection points. Diffusion is certainly better than a flat
                                        > painted wall, but absorption sounds better and in terms of dedicated
                                        > acoustical products is usually way cheaper per square foot. I could get
                                        > away with diffusion at the first reflection points on the wall behind the
                                        > listening chair since that wall is 13 feet or so from the speakers. But
                                        > even there Sonex works just fine and certainly does not "overdeaden" the
                                        > room. And with the beamy Sanders, absorbing sound from the top half of
                                        > that wall with Sonex made a huge improvement both in imaging and in
                                        > reducing perceived brightness at the listening position.
                                        >
                                        > I did like the sound of Mark Levinson's Cello company's room in New York
                                        > where he had his piano. That room was at least 30' x 40' and the room's
                                        > walls and ceiling were entirely covered with RPG Skyline diffusers which
                                        > are considerably more expensive yet than the linked product. So, yes,
                                        > diffusion can work, but the price is very high per square foot.
                                        >
                                        > I also noticed that the weight of the recommended diffuser was 75 pounds
                                        > for 2' x 4' of the stuff, or 37.5 pounds for 2' x 2'. That's pretty heavy
                                        > stuff to be mounting on the ceiling. It MIGHT work with a drop ceiling
                                        > grid, but the grid would have to be very heavy duty indeed. Ordinary 2' x
                                        > 2' acoustical tiles weigh less than five pounds and that size piece of
                                        > Sonex is a pound at most. With Sonex, I can staple it to the ceiling and
                                        > it will never come down and hit me on the head. I don't have a drop
                                        > ceiling grid in my audio room. The ceiling is drywall. I would not like
                                        > to try to mount something which weighs 37.5 pounds to drywall above my
                                        > head. Just holding it up there while you fasten it somehow would be a
                                        > two-person job.
                                        >
                                        > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Robert wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > You get used to the foam--and the room is beyond
                                        > > visual help anyway. After all, it is home to
                                        > > 200+ pounds of dog(two dogs, 95 and 118 pounds
                                        > > respectively), whose idea of a good time is
                                        > > to shred newspapers. (Fortunately, they have a clear
                                        > > idea that shredding audio equipment is not to be done!)
                                        > > Also, I was/am really interested in absorbing sound
                                        > > not diffusing it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Diffusors have their uses, that is for sure.
                                        > > But one wants to diffuse the later sound, not the early
                                        > > reflections. If you diffuse the early reflections, one
                                        > > gets imaging that is,well, diffuse. Diffusors belong elsewhere,
                                        > > to make the later reflections into diffuse sound field so one
                                        > > gets very far from having slap echoes and so on.
                                        > > Of course, one might like the result of making diffuse sound
                                        > > part of the early arrivals. One can experiment.
                                        > > But it defocuses stereo imaging in a big way. Be forewarned!
                                        > > REG
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jpaia@" wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Good luck with your new Gradient Active Revolutions.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Suggest you try some of these at the first reflection points, on the
                                        > > ceiling above your listening position and on the back wall.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > http://www.srlacoustics.com/grid-diffuser-qty-2/
                                        > > >
                                        > > > REG should also try them on his ceiling instead of that ugly foam.:-)
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I sold them.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "jpaia@" wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > What happen to the Sanders speakers?
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is
                                        > > gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is
                                        > > shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables
                                        > > out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come
                                        > > first.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my
                                        > > DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo
                                        > > via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold
                                        > > USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek
                                        > > Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the
                                        > > Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via
                                        > > balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume
                                        > > is fixed at 100%.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the
                                        > > DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss
                                        > > when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software
                                        > > tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming
                                        > > device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking.
                                        > > I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid
                                        > > low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for
                                        > > the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen
                                        > > off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an
                                        > > ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >

                                      • Tom Mallin
                                        I m not surprised at the loss of a bit of bass punch when sound absorbers like foam are used. While even the 4 foam I use is not thick enough to absorb like
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 6, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I'm not surprised at the loss of a bit of bass punch when sound absorbers like foam are used.  While even the 4" foam I use is not thick enough to absorb like an open window bass, it does have some absorption compared to a hard wall.  Since bass is omnidirectional, if you have enough foam in the room, some bass will be absorbed.  Also, perhaps the sensation of bass "punch" is contributed to by higher harmonics which are more effectively absorbed by foam.  I think I've noticed the same thing about less bass, especially when I used to put 6" of Sonex on the floor in front of the speakers to absorb the floor reflection.  But, for me, the greater imaging specificity from sound absorption on the walls outweighs the loss of bass punch.  When real space is on the recording, you really hear it and not your small-room reflections.  

                                          On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Bomwell, Alan <abomwell@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          In the past several days I have begun diffusing (using medium curved diffusers from Acoustic Geometry) the first lateral reflections from the speakers nearest the side walls. The first reflections of the opposite wall speaker (the left-wall reflection of right speaker, for example), the ceiling, and wall behind the chair are absorbed. I rather like the sense of spaciousness this yields. And for some reason, I also have noticed a subjective increase in bass punch. The slight loss of image focus doesn't seem to bother me as it more or less replicates what I'm used to in a concert hall in that regard. I may tire of this after a while, but for now I am enjoying it very much!

                                          Al

                                           

                                          From: jpaia@... [mailto:jpaia@...]
                                          Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 03:08 PM
                                          To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Gradient Active Revolution Set Up as of March 3, 2013
                                           
                                           



                                          The weight shown on the website isn't correct.

                                          The shipping weight is really 15 pounds and a 2' x 2' disfuser is
                                          under 5 pounds.

                                          If you're interested, contact SRL and they'll give a shipping quote
                                          based on your zip code.

                                          Also, read the product reviews like this one:

                                          "For kicks I placed them at my first sidewall reflections to see what would happen as I normally use absorption panels. Talk about a huge stage now and the bottom end has a lot more punch(which surprised me). Also it seems more of the instruments have more of their own space and yet locked onto the stage."

                                          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I agree. I like the way absorption helps imaging much more than diffusion
                                          > at the early reflection points. Diffusion is certainly better than a flat
                                          > painted wall, but absorption sounds better and in terms of dedicated
                                          > acoustical products is usually way cheaper per square foot. I could get
                                          > away with diffusion at the first reflection points on the wall behind the
                                          > listening chair since that wall is 13 feet or so from the speakers. But
                                          > even there Sonex works just fine and certainly does not "overdeaden" the
                                          > room. And with the beamy Sanders, absorbing sound from the top half of
                                          > that wall with Sonex made a huge improvement both in imaging and in
                                          > reducing perceived brightness at the listening position.
                                          >
                                          > I did like the sound of Mark Levinson's Cello company's room in New York
                                          > where he had his piano. That room was at least 30' x 40' and the room's
                                          > walls and ceiling were entirely covered with RPG Skyline diffusers which
                                          > are considerably more expensive yet than the linked product. So, yes,
                                          > diffusion can work, but the price is very high per square foot.
                                          >
                                          > I also noticed that the weight of the recommended diffuser was 75 pounds
                                          > for 2' x 4' of the stuff, or 37.5 pounds for 2' x 2'. That's pretty heavy
                                          > stuff to be mounting on the ceiling. It MIGHT work with a drop ceiling
                                          > grid, but the grid would have to be very heavy duty indeed. Ordinary 2' x
                                          > 2' acoustical tiles weigh less than five pounds and that size piece of
                                          > Sonex is a pound at most. With Sonex, I can staple it to the ceiling and
                                          > it will never come down and hit me on the head. I don't have a drop
                                          > ceiling grid in my audio room. The ceiling is drywall. I would not like
                                          > to try to mount something which weighs 37.5 pounds to drywall above my
                                          > head. Just holding it up there while you fasten it somehow would be a
                                          > two-person job.
                                          >
                                          > On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Robert wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > You get used to the foam--and the room is beyond
                                          > > visual help anyway. After all, it is home to
                                          > > 200+ pounds of dog(two dogs, 95 and 118 pounds
                                          > > respectively), whose idea of a good time is
                                          > > to shred newspapers. (Fortunately, they have a clear
                                          > > idea that shredding audio equipment is not to be done!)
                                          > > Also, I was/am really interested in absorbing sound
                                          > > not diffusing it.
                                          > >
                                          > > Diffusors have their uses, that is for sure.
                                          > > But one wants to diffuse the later sound, not the early
                                          > > reflections. If you diffuse the early reflections, one
                                          > > gets imaging that is,well, diffuse. Diffusors belong elsewhere,
                                          > > to make the later reflections into diffuse sound field so one
                                          > > gets very far from having slap echoes and so on.
                                          > > Of course, one might like the result of making diffuse sound
                                          > > part of the early arrivals. One can experiment.
                                          > > But it defocuses stereo imaging in a big way. Be forewarned!
                                          > > REG
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "jpaia@" wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Good luck with your new Gradient Active Revolutions.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Suggest you try some of these at the first reflection points, on the
                                          > > ceiling above your listening position and on the back wall.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > http://www.srlacoustics.com/grid-diffuser-qty-2/
                                          > > >
                                          > > > REG should also try them on his ceiling instead of that ugly foam.:-)
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I sold them.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > On Mar 4, 2013, at 12:23 AM, "jpaia@" wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > > What happen to the Sanders speakers?
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is
                                          > > gone. The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is
                                          > > shown--more weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables
                                          > > out for DNMs and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come
                                          > > first.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my
                                          > > DaySequerra tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo
                                          > > via SPDIF coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold
                                          > > USB. The Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek
                                          > > Silflex glass Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the
                                          > > Gradient HE crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via
                                          > > balanced cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume
                                          > > is fixed at 100%.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the
                                          > > DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss
                                          > > when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software
                                          > > tweaks to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming
                                          > > device for internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking.
                                          > > I'm useing the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid
                                          > > low power during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for
                                          > > the USB output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen
                                          > > off after thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an
                                          > > ethernet connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >


                                        • kevingan3
                                          Thanks for a very coherent answer! What you say makes a lot of sense, and also makes me want to hear the big Harbeths and how they manage the coherence/image
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 6, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Thanks for a very coherent answer! What you say makes a lot of sense, and also makes me want to hear the big Harbeths and how they manage the coherence/image balance as well as they do. I have my Tannoys in a very live room (can't change that due to WAF), so your point about not damping is probably helping me there by default.

                                            Funny coincidence that you have that JVC: I bought one for my daughter years ago after careful listening and comparison shopping, and I agree with you 100% about what those speakers do. She's still enjoying them, as do I when I visit. IIRC, the speakers are wood pulp of some kind; probably a Fostex? Anyway, they sound wonderful.

                                            I really don't hear any slit effect with my Tannoys, but I'm going to try not to--REG said that once you notice it, it's hard to ignore: I'm hoping to remain ignorant, lest I have to buy new speakers! Not just yet....

                                            Kevin


                                            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I do hear the Revs as not creating as much of the vertical scale of images
                                            > or height illusion as, say, the M40/40.1, much less the Legacy Audio
                                            > Whisper I once owned. I don't find this disturbing, though.
                                            >
                                            > A "line source" like the Sanders sounds even taller than either of those,
                                            > but the vertical scale of images or height illues varies a bit from moment
                                            > to moment, depending on what is playing. That is one of the downsides of a
                                            > tall sound source. Sometimes the sound tends to "climb" up the panel,
                                            > especially when you listen from fairly close up. You can minimize the
                                            > effect by listening from fairly high up, with your ears at least as high as
                                            > the vertical middle of the panel.
                                            >
                                            > I minimize the Revs "slit effect" in two ways. First, by careful choice of
                                            > listening height. I like 38" best, which seems odd to me since I usually
                                            > like to sit a bit below a speaker's tweeter and the tweeter center is only
                                            > 35" above the floor. At that listening height, the images and stage appear
                                            > right in front of my ears/eyes and have enough vertical height not to sound
                                            > like they are coming from a horizontal slit. Second, it helps to not damp
                                            > the ceiling at the first reflection point. Since the concentric drivers
                                            > are angled upward, there is probably a bit of ceiling reflection in play
                                            > which could stretch the vertical axis just a bit.
                                            >
                                            > And, as you say, the coaxial midrange/tweeter does seem to produce an
                                            > unusually satisfying sense of coherence, a coherence I did not hear with
                                            > the Gradient 1.3 or 1.5, as good as those are. The M40/40.1 drivers are
                                            > coherent in the sense that I can't hear them out as separate sound sources
                                            > even from as close up as two feet. But with the Revolution, that coherence
                                            > is a sense of focus which few speakers with "strung out" drivers have. The
                                            > Quad 63 has it, too. I've also heard it from such mundane speakers as the
                                            > single-driver speakers (4" ceramic) in my JVC FS 7000 mini-system I use in
                                            > my kitchen. If I put those speakers at the edge of the kitchen counter and
                                            > get my ears down even with them and within two feet of the plane of the
                                            > speakers with the speakers subtending a reasonable stereo angle, the sense
                                            > of focus and 3-D staging is astounding.
                                            >
                                            > It could be that arranging the drivers from top down in order of tweeter,
                                            > mid, woofer aids in the height and vertical scale illusion, but sacrifices
                                            > just a bit of ultimate focus/coherence. With speakers of the caliber of
                                            > the M40/40.1 and Gradient Revolution, though, you get plenty enough of both
                                            > coherence and vertical scale, although the Harbeth definitely has more
                                            > vertical scale and the Gradient more coherence.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 4:05 PM, kevingan3 <kevin.egan@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > **
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > That is quite a stereo!
                                            > >
                                            > > It made me wonder about the point-source imaging of concentric driver
                                            > > speakers as compared to the point source (or simulated point source)
                                            > > imaging of the big Quads. Do people find that the dynamic implementations
                                            > > of coaxial drivers (Tannoy, Kef, Gradient) avoid the problem that REG
                                            > > refers to as "listening through a slit" with the Quads?
                                            > >
                                            > > I have Tannoys myself, and I never noticed the slit problem--they put the
                                            > > sound into the room in a way that seems quite like multi-driver speakers,
                                            > > except more "coherently"--that's a vague word for a subtle effect. The main
                                            > > advantage I've found besides the subtle coherence effect (which I learned
                                            > > to love in my original Quad 57s) is that they allow more freedom in
                                            > > listening position, and sound less imbalanced no matter where you are in
                                            > > the room.
                                            > >
                                            > > If concentric drivers in general do avoid the "slit", though, I wonder why
                                            > > that is?
                                            > >
                                            > > Kevin
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Yes, the chair is in the current listening position. The speakers are at
                                            > > > the 1/3 room length, 1/5 and 4/5 room width positions and the listening
                                            > > > spot is at 2/3 room length and 1/2 room width. With this chair, my ears
                                            > > > are about 38" above the floor, which is a bit above the 35" tweeter
                                            > > height,
                                            > > > but (oddly, to me) this sounds best with the Revolutions. This
                                            > > positioning
                                            > > > yields about 60 degrees of separation between the Revs, as viewed from
                                            > > the
                                            > > > listening position. As with the Sanders, the stage seems plenty wide
                                            > > > enough at this position and dipole bass works well in terms of maximum
                                            > > > extension with the listener and speakers so arranged. This was true of
                                            > > the
                                            > > > dipole bass Carver Amazings, Orions, and Legacy Whisper as well. Still, I
                                            > > > may try nearer field in the future.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The Harbeths work well with this position as well since I got the new
                                            > > > thicker (now 4") Sonex on the walls. That said, with the M40.1s, I think
                                            > > > the gains of listening closer are greater with the Harbeth than with a
                                            > > > speaker which has a more controlled high frequency dispersion like the
                                            > > > Sanders, Gradients, or even the Spendor SP1/2, at least if the speakers
                                            > > are
                                            > > > oriented to fire down the long dimension of this fairly narrow (12' 8.5")
                                            > > > room. If the speakers are oriented the other way, to fire across the
                                            > > > width, you automatically end up with quite near-field listening if you
                                            > > keep
                                            > > > the speakers and listening position even four feet away from the walls
                                            > > > behind them.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • HM
                                            Hi Kevin There are Blauert bands that relate with height localization (see messages 37007 and 33773), frequency bands that affect localization depending on the
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                              Hi Kevin
                                              There are Blauert bands that relate with height localization (see messages 37007 and 33773), frequency bands that affect localization depending on the spectral content of music, independent from loudspeaker position or chassis arrangement.
                                              Despite the location at the back of the speaker magnet, the tweeter of the Tannoy Dual Concentric advances the bass/midrange in the step response (stereophile measurements) and other speakers like KEF coincident drivers are time coherent but not time coincident. Some KEF units work with inverted tweeters to achieve time coherence, this does not appear as negative as the many inverted classical recordings (90% in my collection) to my ears.
                                              BR HM

                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I really don't hear any slit effect with my Tannoys, but I'm going to try not to--REG said that once you notice it, it's hard to ignore: I'm hoping to remain ignorant, lest I have to buy new speakers! Not just yet....
                                              >
                                              > Kevin
                                            • kevingan3
                                              Thanks for those references--these are new concepts for me, so I have homework to do! Kevin
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 8, 2013
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                                                Thanks for those references--these are new concepts for me, so I have homework to do!

                                                Kevin

                                                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "HM" <hmartinburm@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Kevin
                                                > There are Blauert bands that relate with height localization (see messages 37007 and 33773), frequency bands that affect localization depending on the spectral content of music, independent from loudspeaker position or chassis arrangement.
                                                > Despite the location at the back of the speaker magnet, the tweeter of the Tannoy Dual Concentric advances the bass/midrange in the step response (stereophile measurements) and other speakers like KEF coincident drivers are time coherent but not time coincident. Some KEF units work with inverted tweeters to achieve time coherence, this does not appear as negative as the many inverted classical recordings (90% in my collection) to my ears.
                                                > BR HM
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > I really don't hear any slit effect with my Tannoys, but I'm going to try not to--REG said that once you notice it, it's hard to ignore: I'm hoping to remain ignorant, lest I have to buy new speakers! Not just yet....
                                                > >
                                                > > Kevin
                                                >
                                              • kevindoyle.forum
                                                I think I d heard that the EDO was primarily to use the USB output so hadn t given it much thought. I also thought it was primarily for those planning to
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Mar 8, 2013
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                                                  I think I'd heard that the EDO was primarily to use the USB output so hadn't given it much thought. I also thought it was primarily for those planning to output high resolution files. Since neither of these is a concern to me, I hadn't looked further into it. Apparently, I was wrong. I'll check it out this weekend.

                                                  I hadn't used the analog outputs of the Touch since I first bought it, until just recently. They really are very good.

                                                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > There is a noticeable difference in sound quality, I think, even through
                                                  > the analog outputs and even on ordinary internet radio stations, which is
                                                  > all I use my several Squeezebox Touches for at this point. Even those
                                                  > systems (bedroom, kitchen, office) where I have no available digital
                                                  > connection between the Touch and the preamp seem to benefit from EDO. I
                                                  > have no idea what the effects are on high resolution material streamed from
                                                  > a local server.
                                                  >
                                                  > Unfortunately, it takes about a minute to switch back and forth between EDO
                                                  > and the stock software, so A/B testing is a little less reliable. The
                                                  > primary differences are increased clarity, smoother high frequencies, and a
                                                  > more "relaxed" feel for the reproduction. There is less awareness that you
                                                  > are listening to low-bit-rate reproduction, in other words.
                                                  >
                                                  > Some of the tweaks, especially the buffer tuning options, also seem to
                                                  > improve the three-dimensionality of the reproduction. I was not able to
                                                  > use the very large buffer option until I switched over to the USB
                                                  > connection. There was a surprising-to-me increase in stage depth between
                                                  > the very large and large buffer tuning option in the Gradient system, and
                                                  > the large is a worthwhile improvement in that respect over the default
                                                  > buffer tuning.
                                                  >
                                                  > I'd like to stress that the Squeezebox Touch in stock form sounds
                                                  > remarkably fine in this internet radio application, from any of its
                                                  > outputs, analog or digital. The tweaks I'm mentioning just gild the lily.
                                                  > They are easily reversible. And, best of all, they are easy and FREE.
                                                  >
                                                  > On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 2:29 AM, kevindoyle.forum <doyle.kevin@...>wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > **
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Looking good, TM. My only concern is that you may not have enough
                                                  > > power....maybe you should get another Magtech or two? :)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I have yet to try the EDO on my Touch. There's a noticeable difference
                                                  > > between the SPDIF and EDO USB outputs, even with redbook files and
                                                  > > streaming sources through the DAC on the Oppo? Or is it primarily with 192k?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > P.S.: Here is the link to the first of the new pictures:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/photos/album/404627898/pic/2011637814/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=141&dir=asc
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "thomasmallin" wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > I have put up eight photos of my new room set up. The TacT is gone.
                                                  > > The DualCore is there. The latest set up of the Oppo BDP-105 is shown--more
                                                  > > weight on top. I will be switching the Belden speaker cables out for DNMs
                                                  > > and I have yet to apply EQ with the DualCore. EQ will come first.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The Oppo now acts as a selector for the disc drive, my DaySequerra
                                                  > > tuner, and the Squeezebox Touch. The tuner connects to the Oppo via SPDIF
                                                  > > coax; the Squeezebox Touch connects to the Oppo via Belkin Gold USB. The
                                                  > > Oppo connects to the DualCore via balanced analog and Lifatek Silflex glass
                                                  > > Fiber SPDIF. The DualCore's balanced analog outs feed the Gradient HE
                                                  > > crossover, which feeds the Sanders Magtech Monobloc amps via balanced
                                                  > > cable. The DualCore is controlling the volume; the Oppo's volume is fixed
                                                  > > at 100%.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > This electronic path was driven by the inputs available on the
                                                  > > DualCore and the fact that the DualCore adds significant quiescent hiss
                                                  > > when driven by the Oppo's variable volume control. I don't like hiss.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > I have recently been applying a few free aftermarket software tweaks
                                                  > > to the Squeezebox Touch. What was a wonderful sounding streaming device for
                                                  > > internet radio has become even wonderfuler sonically speaking. I'm useing
                                                  > > the Enhanced Digital Output software from Triode, with the avoid low power
                                                  > > during playback and very large buffer tuning options selected for the USB
                                                  > > output. I also select manual brightess, select turning the screen off after
                                                  > > thirty seconds, select screen off screensaver option, use an ethernet
                                                  > > connection, and run the volume at 100%.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
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