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Being naive

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  • Robert
    One thing that seems quite odd in Toole is that he seems almost upset about the fact that some speakers that he disapproves of have been well reviewed(hard to
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 28, 2013
      One thing that seems quite odd in Toole
      is that he seems almost upset about the fact
      that some speakers that he disapproves of
      have been well reviewed(hard to say which
      ones because he does not name brands).
      This seems to me odd indeed. This is not
      to say that I do not look askance at people
      using what I think of as bad speakers.
      But surely anyone who has hung around audio
      for decades has learned that people can
      get used to all kinds of stuff.
      It is one thing to show that people presented
      with quick comparisons of a whole bunch of speakers
      recognize and prefer neutral ones.
      It is another thing entirely to suppose
      that people necessarily care about neutrality
      in what they own. I am not sure it is true
      but there is a story of how the BBC ran a study showing
      that if people listened a lot to a (purposefully)
      nonneutral speaker, they came to prefer its
      sound and to regard neutral speakers as colored
      in a way complementary to the non-neutral speaker
      that they were listening to.
      Now what is particularly odd about Toole's viewpoint
      is that he particularly seems to disapprove of speakers
      that have presence range or lower trebles "holes"
      in off axis response.
      But OF COURSE people like these--they soften up
      the hard nasty sound that many recording have.
      They sound better (for a centered listener)
      if better means more like music in reality.
      Because music in reality has far less energy
      in those bands than reproduced music as it is
      recorded.
      The funny thing is that Toole knows this
      very well. His remarks on how close miking
      makes recordings un-naturally bright could
      have been written by me! He knows--but
      then he is mystified and disturbed that people
      do not want to hear such things reproduced
      neutrally as far as presence and treble is concerned!
      Well, why the heck would they?

      I think what really went on was that because
      of not restricting the tests to centered
      listeners. there was an automatic bais introduced
      in favor of uniform radiation. But uniform
      radiation is , in rooms not heavily damped,
      going to sound brighter and more present.
      And this is of course going to sound worse
      on long exposure than things that sound less
      bright and less present. What happens is
      that in a quick comparison brightness sounds
      like liveliness and clarity. But after a while.
      it wears one down.

      Everyone knows about the New Coke debacle--
      winning in a quick comparison is not the
      same as being what one wants on a long term.
      Not at all.

      Toole seems all mixed up. He knows that recordings
      are too bright but he set up a test that biased
      things towards no roll off much to the sides and
      then he is offended that people like some other
      speakers than those.

      A strange kind of being naive, it seems to me
      REG
    • laurie483000
      I did read something similar fairly recently in an old BBC paper - which is related to this matter about getting used to non neutral speakers. They found that
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 1, 2013
        I did read something similar fairly recently in an old BBC paper - which is related to this matter about getting used to non neutral speakers.

        They found that if initially one listens a while to some pink noise with a deliberate sharp dip in the response around a particularly frequency, when a similar noise without that dip is then played, the note that represents that dip in the previous signal seems to be readily apparent! It was considered therefore important to take this into account when doing listening tests in speaker developement and be wary of getting accustomed to speakers with any such a marked dip(s). I wonder if this has implications for the advice that when equalising in rooms, sharp dips are said to be nowhere near as audible as sharp peaks - but in the process, maybe one is is actually getting used to non neutral sound.



        Laurie



        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@...> wrote:
        >
        > One thing that seems quite odd in Toole
        > is that he seems almost upset about the fact
        > that some speakers that he disapproves of
        > have been well reviewed(hard to say which
        > ones because he does not name brands).
        >
        >
        > I am not sure it is true but there is a story of how the BBC ran a
        > study showing that if people listened a lot to a
        > (purposefully) nonneutral speaker, they came to prefer its
        > sound and to regard neutral speakers as colored
        > in a way complementary to the non-neutral speaker
        > that they were listening to.
      • Robert
        This is interesting but not really what I was referring to, which was not a matter of relatively quick comparisons, but rather of habituation over a period of
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 1, 2013
          This is interesting but not really
          what I was referring to, which
          was not a matter of relatively quick
          comparisons, but rather of habituation
          over a period of weeks.
          Part of the story was that the participants
          were not supposed to listen to any
          real ,live music during the habituation period.
          REG

          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@...> wrote:
          >
          > I did read something similar fairly recently in an old BBC paper - which is related to this matter about getting used to non neutral speakers.
          >
          > They found that if initially one listens a while to some pink noise with a deliberate sharp dip in the response around a particularly frequency, when a similar noise without that dip is then played, the note that represents that dip in the previous signal seems to be readily apparent! It was considered therefore important to take this into account when doing listening tests in speaker developement and be wary of getting accustomed to speakers with any such a marked dip(s). I wonder if this has implications for the advice that when equalising in rooms, sharp dips are said to be nowhere near as audible as sharp peaks - but in the process, maybe one is is actually getting used to non neutral sound.
          >
          >
          >
          > Laurie
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
          > >
          > > One thing that seems quite odd in Toole
          > > is that he seems almost upset about the fact
          > > that some speakers that he disapproves of
          > > have been well reviewed(hard to say which
          > > ones because he does not name brands).
          > >
          > >
          > > I am not sure it is true but there is a story of how the BBC ran a
          > > study showing that if people listened a lot to a
          > > (purposefully) nonneutral speaker, they came to prefer its
          > > sound and to regard neutral speakers as colored
          > > in a way complementary to the non-neutral speaker
          > > that they were listening to.
          >
        • laurie483000
          I found the reference to the aspect I mentioned - it was an article in Wireless World - Harwood 1976 on factors in loudspeaker quality - those not often
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 1, 2013
            I found the reference to the aspect I mentioned - it was an article in Wireless World - Harwood 1976 on factors in loudspeaker quality - those not often mentioned in the technical press in those days. Page 53 section headed A/B Testing :-

            http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Wireless%20World/Harwood-BBC.htm


            I couldn't quickly see anything about the getting used to and preferring non neutral speakers longer term, but it may be there.


            Laurie


            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is interesting but not really
            > what I was referring to, which
            > was not a matter of relatively quick
            > comparisons, but rather of habituation
            > over a period of weeks.
            > Part of the story was that the participants
            > were not supposed to listen to any
            > real ,live music during the habituation period.
            > REG
            >
            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I did read something similar fairly recently in an old BBC paper - which is related to this matter about getting used to non neutral speakers.
            > >
            > > They found that if initially one listens a while to some pink noise with a deliberate sharp dip in the response around a particularly frequency, when a similar noise without that dip is then played, the note that represents that dip in the previous signal seems to be readily apparent! It was considered therefore important to take this into account when doing listening tests in speaker developement and be wary of getting accustomed to speakers with any such a marked dip(s). I wonder if this has implications for the advice that when equalising in rooms, sharp dips are said to be nowhere near as audible as sharp peaks - but in the process, maybe one is is actually getting used to non neutral sound.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Laurie
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > One thing that seems quite odd in Toole
            > > > is that he seems almost upset about the fact
            > > > that some speakers that he disapproves of
            > > > have been well reviewed(hard to say which
            > > > ones because he does not name brands).
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I am not sure it is true but there is a story of how the BBC ran a
            > > > study showing that if people listened a lot to a
            > > > (purposefully) nonneutral speaker, they came to prefer its
            > > > sound and to regard neutral speakers as colored
            > > > in a way complementary to the non-neutral speaker
            > > > that they were listening to.
            > >
            >
          • Robert
            Really interesting article! Thanks for the link REG
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 1, 2013
              Really interesting article!
              Thanks for the link
              REG

              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@...> wrote:
              >
              > I found the reference to the aspect I mentioned - it was an article in Wireless World - Harwood 1976 on factors in loudspeaker quality - those not often mentioned in the technical press in those days. Page 53 section headed A/B Testing :-
              >
              > http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Wireless%20World/Harwood-BBC.htm
              >
              >
              > I couldn't quickly see anything about the getting used to and preferring non neutral speakers longer term, but it may be there.
              >
              >
              > Laurie
              >
              >
              > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
              > >
              > > This is interesting but not really
              > > what I was referring to, which
              > > was not a matter of relatively quick
              > > comparisons, but rather of habituation
              > > over a period of weeks.
              > > Part of the story was that the participants
              > > were not supposed to listen to any
              > > real ,live music during the habituation period.
              > > REG
              > >
              > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I did read something similar fairly recently in an old BBC paper - which is related to this matter about getting used to non neutral speakers.
              > > >
              > > > They found that if initially one listens a while to some pink noise with a deliberate sharp dip in the response around a particularly frequency, when a similar noise without that dip is then played, the note that represents that dip in the previous signal seems to be readily apparent! It was considered therefore important to take this into account when doing listening tests in speaker developement and be wary of getting accustomed to speakers with any such a marked dip(s). I wonder if this has implications for the advice that when equalising in rooms, sharp dips are said to be nowhere near as audible as sharp peaks - but in the process, maybe one is is actually getting used to non neutral sound.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Laurie
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > One thing that seems quite odd in Toole
              > > > > is that he seems almost upset about the fact
              > > > > that some speakers that he disapproves of
              > > > > have been well reviewed(hard to say which
              > > > > ones because he does not name brands).
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > I am not sure it is true but there is a story of how the BBC ran a
              > > > > study showing that if people listened a lot to a
              > > > > (purposefully) nonneutral speaker, they came to prefer its
              > > > > sound and to regard neutral speakers as colored
              > > > > in a way complementary to the non-neutral speaker
              > > > > that they were listening to.
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • HM
              When I was young I had a WirelessWorld subsription and I was amazed by the vertical slot infront of the woofers of BBC monitors speakers. I thought it was a
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 1, 2013
                When I was young I had a WirelessWorld subsription and I was amazed by the vertical slot infront of the woofers of BBC monitors speakers.
                I thought it was a kind of lowpass filter but a side effect is a change in horizontal dispersion pattern at higher frequencies.
                BR HM

                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@...> wrote:
                >
                > I found the reference to the aspect I mentioned - it was an article in Wireless World - Harwood 1976 on factors in loudspeaker quality - those not often mentioned in the technical press in those days. Page 53 section headed A/B Testing :-
                >
                > http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Wireless%20World/Harwood-BBC.htm
                >
                >
                > I couldn't quickly see anything about the getting used to and preferring non neutral speakers longer term, but it may be there.
                >
                >
                > Laurie
                >
                >
                > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
                > >
                > > This is interesting but not really
                > > what I was referring to, which
                > > was not a matter of relatively quick
                > > comparisons, but rather of habituation
                > > over a period of weeks.
                > > Part of the story was that the participants
                > > were not supposed to listen to any
                > > real ,live music during the habituation period.
                > > REG
                > >
                > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I did read something similar fairly recently in an old BBC paper - which is related to this matter about getting used to non neutral speakers.
                > > >
                > > > They found that if initially one listens a while to some pink noise with a deliberate sharp dip in the response around a particularly frequency, when a similar noise without that dip is then played, the note that represents that dip in the previous signal seems to be readily apparent! It was considered therefore important to take this into account when doing listening tests in speaker developement and be wary of getting accustomed to speakers with any such a marked dip(s). I wonder if this has implications for the advice that when equalising in rooms, sharp dips are said to be nowhere near as audible as sharp peaks - but in the process, maybe one is is actually getting used to non neutral sound.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Laurie
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > One thing that seems quite odd in Toole
                > > > > is that he seems almost upset about the fact
                > > > > that some speakers that he disapproves of
                > > > > have been well reviewed(hard to say which
                > > > > ones because he does not name brands).
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > I am not sure it is true but there is a story of how the BBC ran a
                > > > > study showing that if people listened a lot to a
                > > > > (purposefully) nonneutral speaker, they came to prefer its
                > > > > sound and to regard neutral speakers as colored
                > > > > in a way complementary to the non-neutral speaker
                > > > > that they were listening to.
                > > >
                > >
                >
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