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Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis

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  • Peter
    ...   I don t know, and I have no idea how many people can.   What I do know from listening to big classical music on any number of systems over the years
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
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      > Who can detect clipping in occasionally appearing short peaks by listening? anybody here?
       
      I don't know, and I have no idea how many people can.
       
      What I do know from listening to "big" classical music on any number of systems over the years is this:  Most of these systems, when they're playing "big music" when things get "really busy" sound "stressed" to me.  If I'm not just imagining things, this has to be some form of distortion, and it has to be level dependent.
       
      I started developing the hypothesis several years ago (before I got either the Maggies or Wyred4Sound amps) that loudspeakers needed far more horsepower than most people thought, simply to reproduce "big, busy stuff without stress."  It was comfortaing to find Roger Sanders saying pretty much the same thing.
       
      I haven't heard any signs of stress with the Maggie/W4S combination, though I know a lot of people wouldn't want to hear that combination whether it stressed or not.  Nor have I heard any stress from the Pardigm sub.  I can't say the same about the Velodyne or the other 5 channels, which are underpowered in comparison to the fronts.  Fortunately, the demands on the side and rear surrounds are much lower, so the issue doesn't surface all that often.
       
      Still, from reading Roger Sanders white papers, I can see that I do have a problem trying to drive the ESL panel on the Martin-Logans.
       
      In any event, thanks for that dynamic range link!
       
      Peter

      From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:20 PM
      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
       
      Hi Peter
      I listen to 90dB/1W/1m speakers and a TacT Millennium with PWM output stage. It is a matter of 16Bit 44.1kHz CD equibit conversion into PWM that cannot overdrive the amp by definition.
      My preferred average listening level is 74dB.

      The Scherzo of the Waterlily Mahler 5 has an exceptional Dynamic Range Meter reading about 20 while most classical recordings rarely exceed 13 or 14, popular modern music reaches just 9 (highly compressed by "remastering" of program material that was 16 in the original recording).

      Dynamic Range Meter information and download is found here: http://www.kvraudio.com/product/tt_dynamic_range_meter_by_pleasurize_music_foundation

      Who can detect clipping in occasionally appearing short peaks by listening? anybody here?
      Perhaps nobody - and recording engineers know that.

      I have a Miles Davis Kind Of Blue remaster released 1993 with Adderleys sax clipping severely. Obviously the engineers did not care when they transferred the original tape that was recorded 1959 10 years before Dolby Noise Reduction was introduced. An everage tape deck with Dolby C will provide better S/N than the reel to reel tape recorders of that age.
      I have the first remaster 1986 CD transfer too without such compression and distortion, DR15 (same track of the 1993 remaster gives only DR10). But it has the wrong pitch at the tracks 1-3 that even Miles did not detect- or at least he was indifferent.
      The "speed correction" applied on the 1993 remaster varies between between 1.89% and 2.03% if one compares with the 1986 remaster.
      The cover of the 1986 CD shows Miles left-handed and Adderley was written "Adderly".
      Both CDs come with inverted polarity.
      A famous recording, more than 50 years old. Nobody cares about quality...
      BR HM

      --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
      >
      > I disagree, but that's just me.
      >  
      > In this, http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors, Sanders says this:
      >  
      >     "To have a truly high-fidelity music system therefore requires very powerful amplifiers.  Amplifier power is the single most important factor in choosing an amp."
      >  
      > Neither he nor I is interested in mega-watt amps to deafen the neighbors.  It's all about having enough power to avoid clipping. 
      >  
      > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
      >  
      >     "You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."
      >  
      > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
      >  
      > Peter
      >  
      > P.S.  To the noncritical ear, "distortion" = "too loud"  and the solution is always "turn it down."  And Sanders' paper points out how extremely common it is to have amplifiers clip. He suggests (quite rightly, I think) that the main reason a lot of people prefer tube amps is their clipping is usually a lot more benign than solid state. 
      >  
      > So. . . it's NOT all about the loudness. . . it's all about minimizing the nasties.
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
      > To: mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 3:20 PM
      > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Civilisation and psychosis
      >
      >  
      > Freud is supposed to have said
      > "Civilisation has made everyone psychotic".
      >
      > And maybe there is something a little crazy
      > about the whole idea of trying to reproduce
      > the sound of an orchestra while you
      > are sitting in your living room.
      > (cf Flanders and Swann "Song of reproduction")
      >
      > Still, I cannot resist commenting
      > on a specific form of this
      > craziness that seems to me personally
      > to be particularly crazy.
      > And of these froms, the most pervasive is
      > the mania for loudness.
      >
      > Now orchestral music is somewhat
      > loud at times. and dynamic contrasts
      > are an aspect of 19th century music
      > especially. Beethoven started people
      > on the track of the crescendo as
      > a way to whip up excitement and
      > did they ever run with it!
      >
      > But it seems to me obvious that
      > people get carried away on this.
      > In real orchestral music at sensible locations
      > , I think it essentially
      > NEVER happens that there is 110 dB of
      > energy at 20 Hz--or anywhere else.
      >
      > Audio people of a certain kind have always been inclined
      > to be intrigued with loudness. I think
      > this is because it is so OBVIOUS.
      >
      > If I play my Spendor SP1/2 system for
      > someone and show them how perfectly
      > the tone of a violin is captured.
      > then depending on who they are, they
      > may not even know that this is so.
      > Unless I play along, the perfection,
      > or near that, may not be observed.
      >
      > But if I took them downstairs and played
      > the end of the Pines of Rome on the
      > Cerwin Vegas--anyone could hear
      > how loud and clean it was. Indeed
      > I could crank it up to be louder than
      > a real performance would have been--
      > a lot louder than the level at plausible
      > audience locations(as opposed to
      > close to the brass).
      >
      > People are tempted by the obvious.
      > This seems a principle of life.
      > Subtlety lives on but in private
      > as it were.
      >
      > This is so even in music itself. Modern
      > orchestral music is louder and more aggressive
      > than orchestral music was in the 19th
      > century. Instruments have been steadily
      > modified to play louder and more brilliantly.
      > And rock of course has upped the ante
      > too.
      >
      > In the context that everyone is a little crazy
      > I would suggest that excessive loudness is
      > really crazy.
      >
      > I recall a friend of mine, musically
      > sophisticated, who was exposed to a Dahlquist
      > DQ10 system at someone's house. I asked
      > her how she had found the sound. She
      > said
      > "It was loud. So loud that that was as
      > far as I got--I just walked away as fast as I could"
      >
      > I recall a CES years ago. Enid Lumley and I
      > were together at a Wilson demo. Dave played some
      > music at plausible levels. Then he stopped
      > and said to Enid and me--"This next is
      > going to be really loud. You might want to leave".
      > Nice of him to give warning. But does this
      > not seem indicative of a problem? that
      > his customers were expecting levels that
      > Dave himself thought that people who cared
      > about their hearing (at least for the rest
      > of the show) were best off to avoid? I am not saying
      > Dave was at fault here. He probably knew
      > what his customers wanted to hear demoed. But
      > one could despair of precisely that aspect
      > of audio consumerism.
      >
      > I am afraid that is too often the problem.
      > I like orchestral music and have no patience
      > with un-subwoofered mini speakers. But
      > there is realism in dynamics and bass
      > and then there is wretched excess.
      >
      > As a hobby people can interest themselves
      > in anything. But being interested
      > in excessive loudness seems to me the bottom of the barrel.
      > One thinks of Dr. Sam Johnson
      > "last refuge of"[not a scoundrel but rather
      > an audio crackpot}. Every time I read
      > about 4000 watt bass amplifiers, my attention wanders
      > very fast.
      >
      > REG
      >

    • Peter
      I don t even try to achieve the crazy levels you re talking about when I m listening to music.   Just remember. . . my system does dual duty as a home
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
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        I don't even try to achieve the "crazy" levels you're talking about when I'm listening to music.
         
        Just remember. . . my system does dual duty as a home theater, which, I should add, will be used with friends tonight to watch the new, immaculately restored Blu-ray version of Lawrence of Arabia tonight.  I've already watched the first 30 minutes just to check, and I can say without reservation that it's one of the best of the "road show" restorations.
         
        LoA isn't exactly what my older daughter would call a "boom-boom" flick, but try watching/listening to one that is on a wimpy system.  Just doesn't work.
         
        I still have lots to learn from the Sanders website, but I don't think his speakers would work all that well in my system simply because they're so "sweet-spot" oriented.
         
         

        From: Robert <regtas43@...>
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 9:34 PM
        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
         
        I was talking about the 110 dB levels as crazy.

        Of course --if people have been paying attention--
        they already know that I like the Sanders high
        powered amplifiers and the other
        big power amps. I was the person who put Sunfire on
        the High End map(along with the late much lamented Ann Turner),
        for instance

        I am beginning to wonder whether Peter actually
        reads what I write. I gave the Sanders Magtech
        a rave writeup a while back:
        "The Sanders Magtech joins (really only, in my experience) the Lightstar family and the DALI Gravity in extreme ability to handle anything and sound perfect while doing it. An instant classic in my book. Try it before you decide I am exaggerating."

        Does this sound as if I were not an enthusiast of it?
        It would really help if people would respond
        to what I said, not what they think I said without ever
        actually reading it.

        In any case, I still think that looking for 110 dB of
        20 Hz with a 4,500 watt amplifier
        is pretty much a crackpot activity, the kind of people
        who never recovered from adolescence pursue.
        If you want a lot of headroom in a very large room, you might be
        able to argue for this on a sensible basis--just barely.
        But as such--level like that is nuttiness
        in my book.

        The NRC is not exactly a wimpy organization!
        But they regard 95 dB as very loud.
        And so it is.
        Interestingly the only speaker I can recall
        where they went on up to 100 dB
        in their checks of dynamic linearity were
        the Cerwin Vegas--which I also liked!
        (even though many people thought I was off the wall
        on that).

        Audio people sometimes
        go off the rails on this loudness thing--again
        I think because
        it is so obvious a thing. It is what one
        is interested in if one is too out of it
        to know what else to listen for, or such is
        my usual explanation.

        You can see the CV 100 dB thing here
        www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/cerwin_vega_cls-215/
        They probably could have gone up further--at 100 dB
        not much is wrong.

        Again I gave this its due in a big way in writing
        the speaker up--but probably Peter has not read that either

        I do not think anyone will deny that I appreciate
        headroom and loudness on occasion--but there
        is realistic loudness and then there is being a nut.

        This is all I was getting at--there are loudness
        nuts in the audio world, and subwoofers bring
        them out of the woodwork/

        To each his own, I suppose. Crazy people
        are entitled to be crazy as long as they
        are not aggressive towards other people.
        It is also a property of crazy people that
        they do not know they are crazy(pace Heller).

        I really do not know what levels Peter listens
        at but I am becoming suspicious, that is all.
        None of my business perhaps.

        You probably already know whether 110 dB+ of 20 Hz
        is one of your goals in life. If it is ,
        I might suggest that another group might be
        a useful supplement to this one--Headbangers Anonymous or the like?

        Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list
        of people who like to tease me.

        REG

        --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
        >
        > I disagree, but that's just me.
        >  
        > In this, http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors, Sanders says this:
        >  
        >     "To have a truly high-fidelity music system therefore requires very powerful amplifiers.  Amplifier power is the single most important factor in choosing an amp."
        >  
        > Neither he nor I is interested in mega-watt amps to deafen the neighbors.  It's all about having enough power to avoid clipping. 
        >  
        > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
        >  
        >     "You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."
        >  
        > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
        >  
        > Peter
        >  
        > P.S.  To the noncritical ear, "distortion" = "too loud"  and the solution is always "turn it down."  And Sanders' paper points out how extremely common it is to have amplifiers clip. He suggests (quite rightly, I think) that the main reason a lot of people prefer tube amps is their clipping is usually a lot more benign than solid state. 
        >  
        > So. . . it's NOT all about the loudness. . . it's all about minimizing the nasties.
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
        > To: mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 3:20 PM
        > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Civilisation and psychosis
        >
        >  
        > Freud is supposed to have said
        > "Civilisation has made everyone psychotic".
        >
        > And maybe there is something a little crazy
        > about the whole idea of trying to reproduce
        > the sound of an orchestra while you
        > are sitting in your living room.
        > (cf Flanders and Swann "Song of reproduction")
        >
        > Still, I cannot resist commenting
        > on a specific form of this
        > craziness that seems to me personally
        > to be particularly crazy.
        > And of these froms, the most pervasive is
        > the mania for loudness.
        >
        > Now orchestral music is somewhat
        > loud at times. and dynamic contrasts
        > are an aspect of 19th century music
        > especially. Beethoven started people
        > on the track of the crescendo as
        > a way to whip up excitement and
        > did they ever run with it!
        >
        > But it seems to me obvious that
        > people get carried away on this.
        > In real orchestral music at sensible locations
        > , I think it essentially
        > NEVER happens that there is 110 dB of
        > energy at 20 Hz--or anywhere else.
        >
        > Audio people of a certain kind have always been inclined
        > to be intrigued with loudness. I think
        > this is because it is so OBVIOUS.
        >
        > If I play my Spendor SP1/2 system for
        > someone and show them how perfectly
        > the tone of a violin is captured.
        > then depending on who they are, they
        > may not even know that this is so.
        > Unless I play along, the perfection,
        > or near that, may not be observed.
        >
        > But if I took them downstairs and played
        > the end of the Pines of Rome on the
        > Cerwin Vegas--anyone could hear
        > how loud and clean it was. Indeed
        > I could crank it up to be louder than
        > a real performance would have been--
        > a lot louder than the level at plausible
        > audience locations(as opposed to
        > close to the brass).
        >
        > People are tempted by the obvious.
        > This seems a principle of life.
        > Subtlety lives on but in private
        > as it were.
        >
        > This is so even in music itself. Modern
        > orchestral music is louder and more aggressive
        > than orchestral music was in the 19th
        > century. Instruments have been steadily
        > modified to play louder and more brilliantly.
        > And rock of course has upped the ante
        > too.
        >
        > In the context that everyone is a little crazy
        > I would suggest that excessive loudness is
        > really crazy.
        >
        > I recall a friend of mine, musically
        > sophisticated, who was exposed to a Dahlquist
        > DQ10 system at someone's house. I asked
        > her how she had found the sound. She
        > said
        > "It was loud. So loud that that was as
        > far as I got--I just walked away as fast as I could"
        >
        > I recall a CES years ago. Enid Lumley and I
        > were together at a Wilson demo. Dave played some
        > music at plausible levels. Then he stopped
        > and said to Enid and me--"This next is
        > going to be really loud. You might want to leave".
        > Nice of him to give warning. But does this
        > not seem indicative of a problem? that
        > his customers were expecting levels that
        > Dave himself thought that people who cared
        > about their hearing (at least for the rest
        > of the show) were best off to avoid? I am not saying
        > Dave was at fault here. He probably knew
        > what his customers wanted to hear demoed. But
        > one could despair of precisely that aspect
        > of audio consumerism.
        >
        > I am afraid that is too often the problem.
        > I like orchestral music and have no patience
        > with un-subwoofered mini speakers. But
        > there is realism in dynamics and bass
        > and then there is wretched excess.
        >
        > As a hobby people can interest themselves
        > in anything. But being interested
        > in excessive loudness seems to me the bottom of the barrel.
        > One thinks of Dr. Sam Johnson
        > "last refuge of"[not a scoundrel but rather
        > an audio crackpot}. Every time I read
        > about 4000 watt bass amplifiers, my attention wanders
        > very fast.
        >
        > REG
        >

      • Fred
        Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list of people who like to tease me . Hmmmm......Shades of Ko-Ko or Pot calling Kettle black mayhap? As some
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          "Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list
          of people who like to tease me".

          Hmmmm......Shades of Ko-Ko or Pot calling Kettle black mayhap?

          As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
          He's got a little list — He's got a little list.
          Of Audiophilic offenders who are fond of raucous sound,
          And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!
          There's the pestilential nuisances who post as if for laughs,
          People who with diverse thoughts post irritating graphs.
          He'd add them to his list - it is a bigger list!

          Then the instant experts praising with enthusiastic tone,
          Alternatives and gizmos and products they don't own;
          And those Nisi Prius nuisances, who just now are rather rife,
          Exceptionists, rejectionists with unscientific views of life.
          He's got them on the list! An ever bigger list!

          And enthusiastic amateurs of compromising kind,
          Such as - What d'ye call that (Soundstage), and likewise — Never-mind,
          And 'St— 'st— 'st— and What's-his-name, and also You-know-who,
          The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you.
          But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list,
          For they'd none of 'em be missed — they'd none of 'em be missed!

          ;-)

          Fred.



          From: Robert <regtas43@...>
          To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 2:34
          Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis

           
          I was talking about the 110 dB levels as crazy.

          Of course --if people have been paying attention--
          they already know that I like the Sanders high
          powered amplifiers and the other
          big power amps. I was the person who put Sunfire on
          the High End map(along with the late much lamented Ann Turner),
          for instance

          I am beginning to wonder whether Peter actually
          reads what I write. I gave the Sanders Magtech
          a rave writeup a while back:
          "The Sanders Magtech joins (really only, in my experience) the Lightstar family and the DALI Gravity in extreme ability to handle anything and sound perfect while doing it. An instant classic in my book. Try it before you decide I am exaggerating."

          Does this sound as if I were not an enthusiast of it?
          It would really help if people would respond
          to what I said, not what they think I said without ever
          actually reading it.

          In any case, I still think that looking for 110 dB of
          20 Hz with a 4,500 watt amplifier
          is pretty much a crackpot activity, the kind of people
          who never recovered from adolescence pursue.
          If you want a lot of headroom in a very large room, you might be
          able to argue for this on a sensible basis--just barely.
          But as such--level like that is nuttiness
          in my book.

          The NRC is not exactly a wimpy organization!
          But they regard 95 dB as very loud.
          And so it is.
          Interestingly the only speaker I can recall
          where they went on up to 100 dB
          in their checks of dynamic linearity were
          the Cerwin Vegas--which I also liked!
          (even though many people thought I was off the wall
          on that).

          Audio people sometimes
          go off the rails on this loudness thing--again
          I think because
          it is so obvious a thing. It is what one
          is interested in if one is too out of it
          to know what else to listen for, or such is
          my usual explanation.

          You can see the CV 100 dB thing here
          www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/cerwin_vega_cls-215/
          They probably could have gone up further--at 100 dB
          not much is wrong.

          Again I gave this its due in a big way in writing
          the speaker up--but probably Peter has not read that either

          I do not think anyone will deny that I appreciate
          headroom and loudness on occasion--but there
          is realistic loudness and then there is being a nut.

          This is all I was getting at--there are loudness
          nuts in the audio world, and subwoofers bring
          them out of the woodwork/

          To each his own, I suppose. Crazy people
          are entitled to be crazy as long as they
          are not aggressive towards other people.
          It is also a property of crazy people that
          they do not know they are crazy(pace Heller).

          I really do not know what levels Peter listens
          at but I am becoming suspicious, that is all.
          None of my business perhaps.

          You probably already know whether 110 dB+ of 20 Hz
          is one of your goals in life. If it is ,
          I might suggest that another group might be
          a useful supplement to this one--Headbangers Anonymous or the like?

          Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list
          of people who like to tease me.

          REG

          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
          >
          > I disagree, but that's just me.
          >  
          > In this, http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors, Sanders says this:
          >  
          >     "To have a truly high-fidelity music system therefore requires very powerful amplifiers.  Amplifier power is the single most important factor in choosing an amp."
          >  
          > Neither he nor I is interested in mega-watt amps to deafen the neighbors.  It's all about having enough power to avoid clipping. 
          >  
          > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
          >  
          >     "You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."
          >  
          > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
          >  
          > Peter
          >  
          > P.S.  To the noncritical ear, "distortion" = "too loud"  and the solution is always "turn it down."  And Sanders' paper points out how extremely common it is to have amplifiers clip. He suggests (quite rightly, I think) that the main reason a lot of people prefer tube amps is their clipping is usually a lot more benign than solid state. 
          >  
          > So. . . it's NOT all about the loudness. . . it's all about minimizing the nasties.
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
          > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 3:20 PM
          > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Civilisation and psychosis
          >
          >  
          > Freud is supposed to have said
          > "Civilisation has made everyone psychotic".
          >
          > And maybe there is something a little crazy
          > about the whole idea of trying to reproduce
          > the sound of an orchestra while you
          > are sitting in your living room.
          > (cf Flanders and Swann "Song of reproduction")
          >
          > Still, I cannot resist commenting
          > on a specific form of this
          > craziness that seems to me personally
          > to be particularly crazy.
          > And of these froms, the most pervasive is
          > the mania for loudness.
          >
          > Now orchestral music is somewhat
          > loud at times. and dynamic contrasts
          > are an aspect of 19th century music
          > especially. Beethoven started people
          > on the track of the crescendo as
          > a way to whip up excitement and
          > did they ever run with it!
          >
          > But it seems to me obvious that
          > people get carried away on this.
          > In real orchestral music at sensible locations
          > , I think it essentially
          > NEVER happens that there is 110 dB of
          > energy at 20 Hz--or anywhere else.
          >
          > Audio people of a certain kind have always been inclined
          > to be intrigued with loudness. I think
          > this is because it is so OBVIOUS.
          >
          > If I play my Spendor SP1/2 system for
          > someone and show them how perfectly
          > the tone of a violin is captured.
          > then depending on who they are, they
          > may not even know that this is so.
          > Unless I play along, the perfection,
          > or near that, may not be observed.
          >
          > But if I took them downstairs and played
          > the end of the Pines of Rome on the
          > Cerwin Vegas--anyone could hear
          > how loud and clean it was. Indeed
          > I could crank it up to be louder than
          > a real performance would have been--
          > a lot louder than the level at plausible
          > audience locations(as opposed to
          > close to the brass).
          >
          > People are tempted by the obvious.
          > This seems a principle of life.
          > Subtlety lives on but in private
          > as it were.
          >
          > This is so even in music itself. Modern
          > orchestral music is louder and more aggressive
          > than orchestral music was in the 19th
          > century. Instruments have been steadily
          > modified to play louder and more brilliantly.
          > And rock of course has upped the ante
          > too.
          >
          > In the context that everyone is a little crazy
          > I would suggest that excessive loudness is
          > really crazy.
          >
          > I recall a friend of mine, musically
          > sophisticated, who was exposed to a Dahlquist
          > DQ10 system at someone's house. I asked
          > her how she had found the sound. She
          > said
          > "It was loud. So loud that that was as
          > far as I got--I just walked away as fast as I could"
          >
          > I recall a CES years ago. Enid Lumley and I
          > were together at a Wilson demo. Dave played some
          > music at plausible levels. Then he stopped
          > and said to Enid and me--"This next is
          > going to be really loud. You might want to leave".
          > Nice of him to give warning. But does this
          > not seem indicative of a problem? that
          > his customers were expecting levels that
          > Dave himself thought that people who cared
          > about their hearing (at least for the rest
          > of the show) were best off to avoid? I am not saying
          > Dave was at fault here. He probably knew
          > what his customers wanted to hear demoed. But
          > one could despair of precisely that aspect
          > of audio consumerism.
          >
          > I am afraid that is too often the problem.
          > I like orchestral music and have no patience
          > with un-subwoofered mini speakers. But
          > there is realism in dynamics and bass
          > and then there is wretched excess.
          >
          > As a hobby people can interest themselves
          > in anything. But being interested
          > in excessive loudness seems to me the bottom of the barrel.
          > One thinks of Dr. Sam Johnson
          > "last refuge of"[not a scoundrel but rather
          > an audio crackpot}. Every time I read
          > about 4000 watt bass amplifiers, my attention wanders
          > very fast.
          >
          > REG
          >



        • Peter
          Oh for a really REALLY good Gilbert and Sullivan Blu-ray! ________________________________ From: Fred To:
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Oh for a really REALLY good Gilbert and Sullivan Blu-ray!

            From: Fred <glenndriech@...>
            To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2012 8:06 AM
            Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
             
            "Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list
            of people who like to tease me".

            Hmmmm......Shades of Ko-Ko or Pot calling Kettle black mayhap?

            As some day it may happen that a victim must be found, He's got a little list — He's got a little list. Of Audiophilic offenders who are fond of raucous sound, And who never would be missed — who never would be missed! There's the pestilential nuisances who post as if for laughs, People who with diverse thoughts post irritating graphs.
            He'd add them to his list - it is a bigger list!

            Then the instant experts praising with enthusiastic tone,
            Alternatives and gizmos and products they don't own;
            And those Nisi Prius nuisances, who just now are rather rife,
            Exceptionists, rejectionists with unscientific views of life.
            He's got them on the list! An ever bigger list!

            And enthusiastic amateurs of compromising kind, Such as - What d'ye call that (Soundstage), and likewise — Never-mind,
            And 'St— 'st— 'st— and What's-his-name, and also You-know-who,
            The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you. But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list,
            For they'd none of 'em be missed — they'd none of 'em be missed!

            ;-)

            Fred.


            From: Robert <regtas43@...>
            To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 2:34
            Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
             
            I was talking about the 110 dB levels as crazy. Of course --if people have been paying attention-- they already know that I like the Sanders high powered amplifiers and the other big power amps. I was the person who put Sunfire on the High End map(along with the late much lamented Ann Turner), for instance I am beginning to wonder whether Peter actually reads what I write. I gave the Sanders Magtech a rave writeup a while back: "The Sanders Magtech joins (really only, in my experience) the Lightstar family and the DALI Gravity in extreme ability to handle anything and sound perfect while doing it. An instant classic in my book. Try it before you decide I am exaggerating." Does this sound as if I were not an enthusiast of it? It would really help if people would respond to what I said, not what they think I said without ever actually reading it. In any case, I still think that looking for 110 dB of 20 Hz with a 4,500 watt amplifier is pretty much a crackpot activity, the kind of people who never recovered from adolescence pursue. If you want a lot of headroom in a very large room, you might be able to argue for this on a sensible basis--just barely. But as such--level like that is nuttiness in my book. The NRC is not exactly a wimpy organization! But they regard 95 dB as very loud. And so it is. Interestingly the only speaker I can recall where they went on up to 100 dB in their checks of dynamic linearity were the Cerwin Vegas--which I also liked! (even though many people thought I was off the wall on that). Audio people sometimes go off the rails on this loudness thing--again I think because it is so obvious a thing. It is what one is interested in if one is too out of it to know what else to listen for, or such is my usual explanation. You can see the CV 100 dB thing here www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/cerwin_vega_cls-215/ They probably could have gone up further--at 100 dB not much is wrong. Again I gave this its due in a big way in writing the speaker up--but probably Peter has not read that either I do not think anyone will deny that I appreciate headroom and loudness on occasion--but there is realistic loudness and then there is being a nut. This is all I was getting at--there are loudness nuts in the audio world, and subwoofers bring them out of the woodwork/ To each his own, I suppose. Crazy people are entitled to be crazy as long as they are not aggressive towards other people. It is also a property of crazy people that they do not know they are crazy(pace Heller). I really do not know what levels Peter listens at but I am becoming suspicious, that is all. None of my business perhaps. You probably already know whether 110 dB+ of 20 Hz is one of your goals in life. If it is , I might suggest that another group might be a useful supplement to this one--Headbangers Anonymous or the like? Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list of people who like to tease me. REG --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote: > > I disagree, but that's just me. >   > In this, http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors, Sanders says this: >   >     "To have a truly high-fidelity music system therefore requires very powerful amplifiers.  Amplifier power is the single most important factor in choosing an amp." >   > Neither he nor I is interested in mega-watt amps to deafen the neighbors.  It's all about having enough power to avoid clipping.  >   > In the same piece, Sanders says this: >   >     "You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping." >   > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons of power at 4 ohms.  No stress. >   > Peter >   > P.S.  To the noncritical ear, "distortion" = "too loud"  and the solution is always "turn it down."  And Sanders' paper points out how extremely common it is to have amplifiers clip. He suggests (quite rightly, I think) that the main reason a lot of people prefer tube amps is their clipping is usually a lot more benign than solid state.  >   > So. . . it's NOT all about the loudness. . . it's all about minimizing the nasties. > > > ________________________________ > From: Robert <regtas43@...> > To: mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 3:20 PM > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Civilisation and psychosis > >   > Freud is supposed to have said > "Civilisation has made everyone psychotic". > > And maybe there is something a little crazy > about the whole idea of trying to reproduce > the sound of an orchestra while you > are sitting in your living room. > (cf Flanders and Swann "Song of reproduction") > > Still, I cannot resist commenting > on a specific form of this > craziness that seems to me personally > to be particularly crazy. > And of these froms, the most pervasive is > the mania for loudness. > > Now orchestral music is somewhat > loud at times. and dynamic contrasts > are an aspect of 19th century music > especially. Beethoven started people > on the track of the crescendo as > a way to whip up excitement and > did they ever run with it! > > But it seems to me obvious that > people get carried away on this. > In real orchestral music at sensible locations > , I think it essentially > NEVER happens that there is 110 dB of > energy at 20 Hz--or anywhere else. > > Audio people of a certain kind have always been inclined > to be intrigued with loudness. I think > this is because it is so OBVIOUS. > > If I play my Spendor SP1/2 system for > someone and show them how perfectly > the tone of a violin is captured. > then depending on who they are, they > may not even know that this is so. > Unless I play along, the perfection, > or near that, may not be observed. > > But if I took them downstairs and played > the end of the Pines of Rome on the > Cerwin Vegas--anyone could hear > how loud and clean it was. Indeed > I could crank it up to be louder than > a real performance would have been-- > a lot louder than the level at plausible > audience locations(as opposed to > close to the brass). > > People are tempted by the obvious. > This seems a principle of life. > Subtlety lives on but in private > as it were. > > This is so even in music itself. Modern > orchestral music is louder and more aggressive > than orchestral music was in the 19th > century. Instruments have been steadily > modified to play louder and more brilliantly. > And rock of course has upped the ante > too. > > In the context that everyone is a little crazy > I would suggest that excessive loudness is > really crazy. > > I recall a friend of mine, musically > sophisticated, who was exposed to a Dahlquist > DQ10 system at someone's house. I asked > her how she had found the sound. She > said > "It was loud. So loud that that was as > far as I got--I just walked away as fast as I could" > > I recall a CES years ago. Enid Lumley and I > were together at a Wilson demo. Dave played some > music at plausible levels. Then he stopped > and said to Enid and me--"This next is > going to be really loud. You might want to leave". > Nice of him to give warning. But does this > not seem indicative of a problem? that > his customers were expecting levels that > Dave himself thought that people who cared > about their hearing (at least for the rest > of the show) were best off to avoid? I am not saying > Dave was at fault here. He probably knew > what his customers wanted to hear demoed. But > one could despair of precisely that aspect > of audio consumerism. > > I am afraid that is too often the problem. > I like orchestral music and have no patience > with un-subwoofered mini speakers. But > there is realism in dynamics and bass > and then there is wretched excess. > > As a hobby people can interest themselves > in anything. But being interested > in excessive loudness seems to me the bottom of the barrel. > One thinks of Dr. Sam Johnson > "last refuge of"[not a scoundrel but rather > an audio crackpot}. Every time I read > about 4000 watt bass amplifiers, my attention wanders > very fast. > > REG >
          • k3ox
            ...   ...   My quick calculations seem to indicate that a pair of 90db efficient speakers listened to from about 13 ft away with a 100 w amplifier will
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:

              > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
              >"You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), >magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around >500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."

               
              > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a >sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons >of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
               
              My quick calculations seem to indicate that a pair of 90db efficient speakers listened to from about 13 ft away with a 100 w amplifier will produce peaks of 101 db (actually, more in room). Wouldn't this be enough? A 500 w amplifier would only add approximately 7db more...

              I also have Maggies (3.7) and a 200w amplifier will drive them far louder than I would ever listen (even when I feel frisky).

              I don't know, maybe Fred's right and I should check my pulse. How loud do people here actually listen?

              Kevin
            • barnet.feingold
              I recall a recent discussion of the (apparently inexplicable) effect of subwoofer cone size. Are subwoofers thought to sound different as a function of cone
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I recall a recent discussion of the (apparently inexplicable) effect of subwoofer cone size. Are subwoofers thought to sound different as a function of cone diameter or does it appear that multiple cones whose total area equals that of a larger single cone would have the same inexplicable characteristics?

                Barney

                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
                >
                > I don't even try to achieve the "crazy" levels you're talking about when I'm listening to music.
                >  
                > Just remember. . . my system does dual duty as a home theater, which, I should add, will be used with friends tonight to watch the new, immaculately restored Blu-ray version of Lawrence of Arabia tonight.  I've already watched the first 30 minutes just to check, and I can say without reservation that it's one of the best of the "road show" restorations.
                >  
                > LoA isn't exactly what my older daughter would call a "boom-boom" flick, but try watching/listening to one that is on a wimpy system.  Just doesn't work.
                >  
                > I still have lots to learn from the Sanders website, but I don't think his speakers would work all that well in my system simply because they're so "sweet-spot" oriented.
                >  
                >  
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 9:34 PM
                > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                > I was talking about the 110 dB levels as crazy.
                >
                > Of course --if people have been paying attention--
                > they already know that I like the Sanders high
                > powered amplifiers and the other
                > big power amps. I was the person who put Sunfire on
                > the High End map(along with the late much lamented Ann Turner),
                > for instance
                >
                > I am beginning to wonder whether Peter actually
                > reads what I write. I gave the Sanders Magtech
                > a rave writeup a while back:
                > "The Sanders Magtech joins (really only, in my experience) the Lightstar family and the DALI Gravity in extreme ability to handle anything and sound perfect while doing it. An instant classic in my book. Try it before you decide I am exaggerating."
                >
                > Does this sound as if I were not an enthusiast of it?
                > It would really help if people would respond
                > to what I said, not what they think I said without ever
                > actually reading it.
                >
                > In any case, I still think that looking for 110 dB of
                > 20 Hz with a 4,500 watt amplifier
                > is pretty much a crackpot activity, the kind of people
                > who never recovered from adolescence pursue.
                > If you want a lot of headroom in a very large room, you might be
                > able to argue for this on a sensible basis--just barely.
                > But as such--level like that is nuttiness
                > in my book.
                >
                > The NRC is not exactly a wimpy organization!
                > But they regard 95 dB as very loud.
                > And so it is.
                > Interestingly the only speaker I can recall
                > where they went on up to 100 dB
                > in their checks of dynamic linearity were
                > the Cerwin Vegas--which I also liked!
                > (even though many people thought I was off the wall
                > on that).
                >
                > Audio people sometimes
                > go off the rails on this loudness thing--again
                > I think because
                > it is so obvious a thing. It is what one
                > is interested in if one is too out of it
                > to know what else to listen for, or such is
                > my usual explanation.
                >
                > You can see the CV 100 dB thing here
                > www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/cerwin_vega_cls-215/
                > They probably could have gone up further--at 100 dB
                > not much is wrong.
                >
                > Again I gave this its due in a big way in writing
                > the speaker up--but probably Peter has not read that either
                >
                > I do not think anyone will deny that I appreciate
                > headroom and loudness on occasion--but there
                > is realistic loudness and then there is being a nut.
                >
                > This is all I was getting at--there are loudness
                > nuts in the audio world, and subwoofers bring
                > them out of the woodwork/
                >
                > To each his own, I suppose. Crazy people
                > are entitled to be crazy as long as they
                > are not aggressive towards other people.
                > It is also a property of crazy people that
                > they do not know they are crazy(pace Heller).
                >
                > I really do not know what levels Peter listens
                > at but I am becoming suspicious, that is all.
                > None of my business perhaps.
                >
                > You probably already know whether 110 dB+ of 20 Hz
                > is one of your goals in life. If it is ,
                > I might suggest that another group might be
                > a useful supplement to this one--Headbangers Anonymous or the like?
                >
                > Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list
                > of people who like to tease me.
                >
                > REG
                >
                > --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I disagree, but that's just me.
                > >  
                > > In this, http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors, Sanders says this:
                > >  
                > >     "To have a truly high-fidelity music system therefore requires very powerful amplifiers.  Amplifier power is the single most important factor in choosing an amp."
                > >  
                > > Neither he nor I is interested in mega-watt amps to deafen the neighbors.  It's all about having enough power to avoid clipping. 
                > >  
                > > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
                > >  
                > >     "You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."
                > >  
                > > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
                > >  
                > > Peter
                > >  
                > > P.S.  To the noncritical ear, "distortion" = "too loud"  and the solution is always "turn it down."  And Sanders' paper points out how extremely common it is to have amplifiers clip. He suggests (quite rightly, I think) that the main reason a lot of people prefer tube amps is their clipping is usually a lot more benign than solid state. 
                > >  
                > > So. . . it's NOT all about the loudness. . . it's all about minimizing the nasties.
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: Robert <regtas43@>
                > > To: mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 3:20 PM
                > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Civilisation and psychosis
                > >
                > >  
                > > Freud is supposed to have said
                > > "Civilisation has made everyone psychotic".
                > >
                > > And maybe there is something a little crazy
                > > about the whole idea of trying to reproduce
                > > the sound of an orchestra while you
                > > are sitting in your living room.
                > > (cf Flanders and Swann "Song of reproduction")
                > >
                > > Still, I cannot resist commenting
                > > on a specific form of this
                > > craziness that seems to me personally
                > > to be particularly crazy.
                > > And of these froms, the most pervasive is
                > > the mania for loudness.
                > >
                > > Now orchestral music is somewhat
                > > loud at times. and dynamic contrasts
                > > are an aspect of 19th century music
                > > especially. Beethoven started people
                > > on the track of the crescendo as
                > > a way to whip up excitement and
                > > did they ever run with it!
                > >
                > > But it seems to me obvious that
                > > people get carried away on this.
                > > In real orchestral music at sensible locations
                > > , I think it essentially
                > > NEVER happens that there is 110 dB of
                > > energy at 20 Hz--or anywhere else.
                > >
                > > Audio people of a certain kind have always been inclined
                > > to be intrigued with loudness. I think
                > > this is because it is so OBVIOUS.
                > >
                > > If I play my Spendor SP1/2 system for
                > > someone and show them how perfectly
                > > the tone of a violin is captured.
                > > then depending on who they are, they
                > > may not even know that this is so.
                > > Unless I play along, the perfection,
                > > or near that, may not be observed.
                > >
                > > But if I took them downstairs and played
                > > the end of the Pines of Rome on the
                > > Cerwin Vegas--anyone could hear
                > > how loud and clean it was. Indeed
                > > I could crank it up to be louder than
                > > a real performance would have been--
                > > a lot louder than the level at plausible
                > > audience locations(as opposed to
                > > close to the brass).
                > >
                > > People are tempted by the obvious.
                > > This seems a principle of life.
                > > Subtlety lives on but in private
                > > as it were.
                > >
                > > This is so even in music itself. Modern
                > > orchestral music is louder and more aggressive
                > > than orchestral music was in the 19th
                > > century. Instruments have been steadily
                > > modified to play louder and more brilliantly.
                > > And rock of course has upped the ante
                > > too.
                > >
                > > In the context that everyone is a little crazy
                > > I would suggest that excessive loudness is
                > > really crazy.
                > >
                > > I recall a friend of mine, musically
                > > sophisticated, who was exposed to a Dahlquist
                > > DQ10 system at someone's house. I asked
                > > her how she had found the sound. She
                > > said
                > > "It was loud. So loud that that was as
                > > far as I got--I just walked away as fast as I could"
                > >
                > > I recall a CES years ago. Enid Lumley and I
                > > were together at a Wilson demo. Dave played some
                > > music at plausible levels. Then he stopped
                > > and said to Enid and me--"This next is
                > > going to be really loud. You might want to leave".
                > > Nice of him to give warning. But does this
                > > not seem indicative of a problem? that
                > > his customers were expecting levels that
                > > Dave himself thought that people who cared
                > > about their hearing (at least for the rest
                > > of the show) were best off to avoid? I am not saying
                > > Dave was at fault here. He probably knew
                > > what his customers wanted to hear demoed. But
                > > one could despair of precisely that aspect
                > > of audio consumerism.
                > >
                > > I am afraid that is too often the problem.
                > > I like orchestral music and have no patience
                > > with un-subwoofered mini speakers. But
                > > there is realism in dynamics and bass
                > > and then there is wretched excess.
                > >
                > > As a hobby people can interest themselves
                > > in anything. But being interested
                > > in excessive loudness seems to me the bottom of the barrel.
                > > One thinks of Dr. Sam Johnson
                > > "last refuge of"[not a scoundrel but rather
                > > an audio crackpot}. Every time I read
                > > about 4000 watt bass amplifiers, my attention wanders
                > > very fast.
                > >
                > > REG
                > >
                >
              • Edward Mast
                Very good, Fred! Ned ... Very good, Fred! Ned On Dec 1, 2012, at 8:06 AM, Fred wrote: Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list of people who like
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Very good, Fred!
                  Ned
                  On Dec 1, 2012, at 8:06 AM, Fred wrote:

                   

                  "Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list
                  of people who like to tease me".

                  Hmmmm......Shades of Ko-Ko or Pot calling Kettle black mayhap?

                  As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
                  He's got a little list — He's got a little list.
                  Of Audiophilic offenders who are fond of raucous sound,
                  And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!
                  There's the pestilential nuisances who post as if for laughs,
                  People who with diverse thoughts post irritating graphs.
                  He'd add them to his list - it is a bigger list!

                  Then the instant experts praising with enthusiastic tone,
                  Alternatives and gizmos and products they don't own;
                  And those Nisi Prius nuisances, who just now are rather rife,
                  Exceptionists, rejectionists with unscientific views of life.
                  He's got them on the list! An ever bigger list!

                  And enthusiastic amateurs of compromising kind,
                  Such as - What d'ye call that (Soundstage), and likewise — Never-mind,
                  And 'St— 'st— 'st— and What's-his-name, and also You-know-who,
                  The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you.
                  But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list,
                  For they'd none of 'em be missed — they'd none of 'em be missed!

                  ;-)

                  Fred.



                  From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                  To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 2:34
                  Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis

                   
                  I was talking about the 110 dB levels as crazy.

                  Of course --if people have been paying attention--
                  they already know that I like the Sanders high
                  powered amplifiers and the other
                  big power amps. I was the person who put Sunfire on
                  the High End map(along with the late much lamented Ann Turner),
                  for instance

                  I am beginning to wonder whether Peter actually
                  reads what I write. I gave the Sanders Magtech
                  a rave writeup a while back:
                  "The Sanders Magtech joins (really only, in my experience) the Lightstar family and the DALI Gravity in extreme ability to handle anything and sound perfect while doing it. An instant classic in my book. Try it before you decide I am exaggerating."

                  Does this sound as if I were not an enthusiast of it?
                  It would really help if people would respond
                  to what I said, not what they think I said without ever
                  actually reading it.

                  In any case, I still think that looking for 110 dB of
                  20 Hz with a 4,500 watt amplifier
                  is pretty much a crackpot activity, the kind of people
                  who never recovered from adolescence pursue.
                  If you want a lot of headroom in a very large room, you might be
                  able to argue for this on a sensible basis--just barely.
                  But as such--level like that is nuttiness
                  in my book.

                  The NRC is not exactly a wimpy organization!
                  But they regard 95 dB as very loud.
                  And so it is.
                  Interestingly the only speaker I can recall
                  where they went on up to 100 dB
                  in their checks of dynamic linearity were
                  the Cerwin Vegas--which I also liked!
                  (even though many people thought I was off the wall
                  on that).

                  Audio people sometimes
                  go off the rails on this loudness thing--again
                  I think because
                  it is so obvious a thing. It is what one
                  is interested in if one is too out of it
                  to know what else to listen for, or such is
                  my usual explanation.

                  You can see the CV 100 dB thing here
                  www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/cerwin_vega_cls-215/
                  They probably could have gone up further--at 100 dB
                  not much is wrong.

                  Again I gave this its due in a big way in writing
                  the speaker up--but probably Peter has not read that either

                  I do not think anyone will deny that I appreciate
                  headroom and loudness on occasion--but there
                  is realistic loudness and then there is being a nut.

                  This is all I was getting at--there are loudness
                  nuts in the audio world, and subwoofers bring
                  them out of the woodwork/

                  To each his own, I suppose. Crazy people
                  are entitled to be crazy as long as they
                  are not aggressive towards other people.
                  It is also a property of crazy people that
                  they do not know they are crazy(pace Heller).

                  I really do not know what levels Peter listens
                  at but I am becoming suspicious, that is all.
                  None of my business perhaps.

                  You probably already know whether 110 dB+ of 20 Hz
                  is one of your goals in life. If it is ,
                  I might suggest that another group might be
                  a useful supplement to this one--Headbangers Anonymous or the like?

                  Or maybe I just have to add Peter to Fred on the list
                  of people who like to tease me.

                  REG

                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I disagree, but that's just me.
                  >  
                  > In this, http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors, Sanders says this:
                  >  
                  >     "To have a truly high-fidelity music system therefore requires very powerful amplifiers.  Amplifier power is the single most important factor in choosing an amp."
                  >  
                  > Neither he nor I is interested in mega-watt amps to deafen the neighbors.  It's all about having enough power to avoid clipping. 
                  >  
                  > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
                  >  
                  >     "You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."
                  >  
                  > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
                  >  
                  > Peter
                  >  
                  > P.S.  To the noncritical ear, "distortion" = "too loud"  and the solution is always "turn it down."  And Sanders' paper points out how extremely common it is to have amplifiers clip. He suggests (quite rightly, I think) that the main reason a lot of people prefer tube amps is their clipping is usually a lot more benign than solid state. 
                  >  
                  > So. . . it's NOT all about the loudness. . . it's all about minimizing the nasties.
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
                  > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 3:20 PM
                  > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Civilisation and psychosis
                  >
                  >  
                  > Freud is supposed to have said
                  > "Civilisation has made everyone psychotic".
                  >
                  > And maybe there is something a little crazy
                  > about the whole idea of trying to reproduce
                  > the sound of an orchestra while you
                  > are sitting in your living room.
                  > (cf Flanders and Swann "Song of reproduction")
                  >
                  > Still, I cannot resist commenting
                  > on a specific form of this
                  > craziness that seems to me personally
                  > to be particularly crazy.
                  > And of these froms, the most pervasive is
                  > the mania for loudness.
                  >
                  > Now orchestral music is somewhat
                  > loud at times. and dynamic contrasts
                  > are an aspect of 19th century music
                  > especially. Beethoven started people
                  > on the track of the crescendo as
                  > a way to whip up excitement and
                  > did they ever run with it!
                  >
                  > But it seems to me obvious that
                  > people get carried away on this.
                  > In real orchestral music at sensible locations
                  > , I think it essentially
                  > NEVER happens that there is 110 dB of
                  > energy at 20 Hz--or anywhere else.
                  >
                  > Audio people of a certain kind have always been inclined
                  > to be intrigued with loudness. I think
                  > this is because it is so OBVIOUS.
                  >
                  > If I play my Spendor SP1/2 system for
                  > someone and show them how perfectly
                  > the tone of a violin is captured.
                  > then depending on who they are, they
                  > may not even know that this is so.
                  > Unless I play along, the perfection,
                  > or near that, may not be observed.
                  >
                  > But if I took them downstairs and played
                  > the end of the Pines of Rome on the
                  > Cerwin Vegas--anyone could hear
                  > how loud and clean it was. Indeed
                  > I could crank it up to be louder than
                  > a real performance would have been--
                  > a lot louder than the level at plausible
                  > audience locations(as opposed to
                  > close to the brass).
                  >
                  > People are tempted by the obvious.
                  > This seems a principle of life.
                  > Subtlety lives on but in private
                  > as it were.
                  >
                  > This is so even in music itself. Modern
                  > orchestral music is louder and more aggressive
                  > than orchestral music was in the 19th
                  > century. Instruments have been steadily
                  > modified to play louder and more brilliantly.
                  > And rock of course has upped the ante
                  > too.
                  >
                  > In the context that everyone is a little crazy
                  > I would suggest that excessive loudness is
                  > really crazy.
                  >
                  > I recall a friend of mine, musically
                  > sophisticated, who was exposed to a Dahlquist
                  > DQ10 system at someone's house. I asked
                  > her how she had found the sound. She
                  > said
                  > "It was loud. So loud that that was as
                  > far as I got--I just walked away as fast as I could"
                  >
                  > I recall a CES years ago. Enid Lumley and I
                  > were together at a Wilson demo. Dave played some
                  > music at plausible levels. Then he stopped
                  > and said to Enid and me--"This next is
                  > going to be really loud. You might want to leave".
                  > Nice of him to give warning. But does this
                  > not seem indicative of a problem? that
                  > his customers were expecting levels that
                  > Dave himself thought that people who cared
                  > about their hearing (at least for the rest
                  > of the show) were best off to avoid? I am not saying
                  > Dave was at fault here. He probably knew
                  > what his customers wanted to hear demoed. But
                  > one could despair of precisely that aspect
                  > of audio consumerism.
                  >
                  > I am afraid that is too often the problem.
                  > I like orchestral music and have no patience
                  > with un-subwoofered mini speakers. But
                  > there is realism in dynamics and bass
                  > and then there is wretched excess.
                  >
                  > As a hobby people can interest themselves
                  > in anything. But being interested
                  > in excessive loudness seems to me the bottom of the barrel.
                  > One thinks of Dr. Sam Johnson
                  > "last refuge of"[not a scoundrel but rather
                  > an audio crackpot}. Every time I read
                  > about 4000 watt bass amplifiers, my attention wanders
                  > very fast.
                  >
                  > REG
                  >





                • yipmangmeng@yahoo.com.sg
                  How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to reproduce your music/noise without giving her a headache? Yip ... How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
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                    How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to reproduce your music/noise without giving her a headache?

                    Yip


                    From: k3ox <kolson@...>
                    To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 22:02
                    Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis

                     
                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:

                    > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
                    >"You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), >magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around >500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."

                     
                    > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a >sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons >of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
                     
                    My quick calculations seem to indicate that a pair of 90db efficient speakers listened to from about 13 ft away with a 100 w amplifier will produce peaks of 101 db (actually, more in room). Wouldn't this be enough? A 500 w amplifier would only add approximately 7db more...

                    I also have Maggies (3.7) and a 200w amplifier will drive them far louder than I would ever listen (even when I feel frisky).

                    I don't know, maybe Fred's right and I should check my pulse. How loud do people here actually listen?

                    Kevin



                  • Peter
                    My listening distance is about 6.5 to the LF and RF speakers.  The plasma is about 8.5 away.  With my current room arrangement, there s no way the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
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                      My listening distance is about 6.5' to the LF and RF speakers.  The plasma is about 8.5' away.  With my current room arrangement, there's no way the listening and viewing distance can be the same, at least until I'm ready to take the 4K plunge, which will probably be at least 2-3 years down the road.
                       
                      Unlike audio, video has the advantage of of precision in viewing distance.  There's an optimum viewing distance for every combination of resolution and screen size.  I'm at the optimum for 1080p with a 60" plasma.  The best viewing distance for an 85" 4K screen is, believe it or not, a little over 5'.

                      From: k3ox <kolson@...>
                      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2012 9:02 AM
                      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                       
                      --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:

                      > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
                      >"You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), >magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around >500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."

                       
                      > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a >sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons >of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
                       
                      My quick calculations seem to indicate that a pair of 90db efficient speakers listened to from about 13 ft away with a 100 w amplifier will produce peaks of 101 db (actually, more in room). Wouldn't this be enough? A 500 w amplifier would only add approximately 7db more...

                      I also have Maggies (3.7) and a 200w amplifier will drive them far louder than I would ever listen (even when I feel frisky).

                      I don't know, maybe Fred's right and I should check my pulse. How loud do people here actually listen?

                      Kevin

                    • Peter
                      ...   My spouse died back in 1999, so you ll have to ask her yourself. ________________________________ From: yipmangmeng@yahoo.com.sg
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to reproduce your music/noise without giving her a headache?
                         
                        My spouse died back in 1999, so you'll have to ask her yourself.

                        From: "yipmangmeng@..." <yipmangmeng@...>
                        To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2012 10:28 AM
                        Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                         
                        How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to reproduce your music/noise without giving her a headache?

                        Yip

                        From: k3ox <kolson@...>
                        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 22:02
                        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                         
                        --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote: > In the same piece, Sanders says this: >"You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), >magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around >500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."   > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a >sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons >of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.   My quick calculations seem to indicate that a pair of 90db efficient speakers listened to from about 13 ft away with a 100 w amplifier will produce peaks of 101 db (actually, more in room). Wouldn't this be enough? A 500 w amplifier would only add approximately 7db more... I also have Maggies (3.7) and a 200w amplifier will drive them far louder than I would ever listen (even when I feel frisky). I don't know, maybe Fred's right and I should check my pulse. How loud do people here actually listen? Kevin
                      • Fred
                        The answer to that is related to adaptable factors of cause and defect beyond logical solution. Fred. ... The answer to that is related to adaptable factors of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
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                          The answer to that is related to adaptable factors of cause and defect beyond logical solution.
                          Fred.


                          From: "yipmangmeng@..." <yipmangmeng@...>
                          To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 15:28
                          Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis

                           
                          How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to reproduce your music/noise without giving her a headache?

                          Yip

                        • Peter
                          Maggies have always been known for having a low WAF, but my late wife always loved them even from when we first met (which was back in the days of the Tympani
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Maggies have always been known for having a low WAF, but my late wife always loved them even from when we first met (which was back in the days of the Tympani III's.)
                             
                            She never got to see or hear the 20.1's, but I think she would have found them even more appealing.
                             
                             

                            From: Fred <glenndriech@...>
                            To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2012 11:12 AM
                            Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                             
                            The answer to that is related to adaptable factors of cause and defect beyond logical solution.
                            Fred.

                            From: "yipmangmeng@..." <yipmangmeng@...>
                            To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 15:28
                            Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                             
                            How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to reproduce your music/noise without giving her a headache?

                            Yip
                          • Robert
                            Gender prejdice! Paige likes levels (on popular music) that I do not find really tolerable. But that is all right--we have a large house. And a high powered
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
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                              Gender prejdice! Paige likes levels (on popular
                              music) that I do not find really tolerable.
                              But that is all right--we have a large house.
                              And a high powered amplifier!
                              Lis (my late first wife) did not like loud music
                              at home, though she liked big music in concert(Mahler
                              was one of her favorites).

                              Seriously, in general women seem not to like
                              loud audio, but it definitely does vary from person
                              to person

                              REG


                              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The answer to that is related to adaptable factors of cause and defect beyond logical solution.
                              > Fred.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >________________________________
                              > > From: "yipmangmeng@..." <yipmangmeng@...>
                              > >To: "regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                              > >Sent: Saturday, 1 December 2012, 15:28
                              > >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > 
                              > >How loud does your spouse/partner allow you to reproduce your music/noise without giving her a headache?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Yip
                              > >
                              >
                            • Robert
                              Once more, Ihave said this in the past(and agree with it) This (to long time readers of mine ) is familiar territory and once again it seems that Peter came
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 1, 2012
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                                Once more, Ihave said this in the past(and agree with it)
                                This (to long time readers of mine ) is familiar territory
                                and once again it seems that Peter came late to the dance
                                if he found out about this recently. For example this is
                                from my Sunfire review in 1996! (reprinted on www.regonaudio.co)
                                "Almost everyone who has given serious thought to the interaction of amplifiers and speakers has come to realize that speakers can make large and rapidly varying current demands under the dynamic conditions of actually playing music. These demands are much larger on occasion that one would expect from averaged impedance measurements under static (fixed-frequency sine wave) conditions. In effect, under dynamic conditions, speakers can act as if they had much lower impedance with much - nastier phase angles than a normal impedance plot would show. As a consequence, amplifiers have to be prepared for more extreme demands on their power supply than designers used to believe. This point is being explicitly addressed by a number of contemporary designers.3 In the Sunfire, Carver addresses it with a vengeance."

                                This could hardly have been more explicit--and it was more than
                                15 years ago! One can despair.
                                "Though you hit 'em good and hard,
                                they're never out for good. Uselss, it's useless..."

                                It seems to be almost impossible to
                                get an idea across to the audio public as a body on a permanent
                                basis. They keep "rediscovering" things as if encountering them
                                for the first time, even though they have been written about
                                for decades. The experts know, the public forgets. It was surely not necessary to wait dfor recent words
                                from Roger Sanders or anyone else. People have known about this
                                for a very long time, that it was good to have headroom in amplification

                                REG

                                PS The main reason audio systems sound confused with complex
                                music when it is loud is too much sound bouncing about the
                                room. Solid amplification is a good thing, but acoustics rule.

                                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > Who can detect clipping in occasionally appearing short peaks by listening? anybody here?
                                >  
                                > I don't know, and I have no idea how many people can.
                                >  
                                > What I do know from listening to "big" classical music on any number of systems over the years is this:  Most of these systems, when they're playing "big music" when things get "really busy" sound "stressed" to me.  If I'm not just imagining things, this has to be some form of distortion, and it has to be level dependent.
                                >  
                                > I started developing the hypothesis several years ago (before I got either the Maggies or Wyred4Sound amps) that loudspeakers needed far more horsepower than most people thought, simply to reproduce "big, busy stuff without stress."  It was comfortaing to find Roger Sanders saying pretty much the same thing.
                                >  
                                > I haven't heard any signs of stress with the Maggie/W4S combination, though I know a lot of people wouldn't want to hear that combination whether it stressed or not.  Nor have I heard any stress from the Pardigm sub.  I can't say the same about the Velodyne or the other 5 channels, which are underpowered in comparison to the fronts.  Fortunately, the demands on the side and rear surrounds are much lower, so the issue doesn't surface all that often.
                                >  
                                > Still, from reading Roger Sanders white papers, I can see that I do have a problem trying to drive the ESL panel on the Martin-Logans.
                                >  
                                > In any event, thanks for that dynamic range link!
                                >  
                                > Peter
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
                                > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:20 PM
                                > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Civilisation and psychosis
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                > Hi Peter
                                > I listen to 90dB/1W/1m speakers and a TacT Millennium with PWM output stage. It is a matter of 16Bit 44.1kHz CD equibit conversion into PWM that cannot overdrive the amp by definition.
                                > My preferred average listening level is 74dB.
                                >
                                > The Scherzo of the Waterlily Mahler 5 has an exceptional Dynamic Range Meter reading about 20 while most classical recordings rarely exceed 13 or 14, popular modern music reaches just 9 (highly compressed by "remastering" of program material that was 16 in the original recording).
                                >
                                > Dynamic Range Meter information and download is found here: http://www.kvraudio.com/product/tt_dynamic_range_meter_by_pleasurize_music_foundation
                                >
                                > Who can detect clipping in occasionally appearing short peaks by listening? anybody here?
                                > Perhaps nobody - and recording engineers know that.
                                >
                                > I have a Miles Davis Kind Of Blue remaster released 1993 with Adderleys sax clipping severely. Obviously the engineers did not care when they transferred the original tape that was recorded 1959 10 years before Dolby Noise Reduction was introduced. An everage tape deck with Dolby C will provide better S/N than the reel to reel tape recorders of that age.
                                > I have the first remaster 1986 CD transfer too without such compression and distortion, DR15 (same track of the 1993 remaster gives only DR10). But it has the wrong pitch at the tracks 1-3 that even Miles did not detect- or at least he was indifferent.
                                > The "speed correction" applied on the 1993 remaster varies between between 1.89% and 2.03% if one compares with the 1986 remaster.
                                > The cover of the 1986 CD shows Miles left-handed and Adderley was written "Adderly".
                                > Both CDs come with inverted polarity.
                                > A famous recording, more than 50 years old. Nobody cares about quality...
                                > BR HM
                                >
                                > --- In mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I disagree, but that's just me.
                                > >  
                                > > In this, http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/technical-white-papers/172-tubes-vs-transistors, Sanders says this:
                                > >  
                                > >     "To have a truly high-fidelity music system therefore requires very powerful amplifiers.  Amplifier power is the single most important factor in choosing an amp."
                                > >  
                                > > Neither he nor I is interested in mega-watt amps to deafen the neighbors.  It's all about having enough power to avoid clipping. 
                                > >  
                                > > In the same piece, Sanders says this:
                                > >  
                                > >     "You will find that conventional, direct-radiator (not horn-loaded), magnetic speaker systems of around 90 dB sensitivity, require around 500 watts/channel to avoid clipping."
                                > >  
                                > > Whether you hate them or not, my Maggies are 4 ohm speakers with a sensitivity of about 86 db.  That's why I have monoblocks with tons of power at 4 ohms.  No stress.
                                > >  
                                > > Peter
                                > >  
                                > > P.S.  To the noncritical ear, "distortion" = "too loud"  and the solution is always "turn it down."  And Sanders' paper points out how extremely common it is to have amplifiers clip. He suggests (quite rightly, I think) that the main reason a lot of people prefer tube amps is their clipping is usually a lot more benign than solid state. 
                                > >  
                                > > So. . . it's NOT all about the loudness. . . it's all about minimizing the nasties.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: Robert <regtas43@>
                                > > To: mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 3:20 PM
                                > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Civilisation and psychosis
                                > >
                                > >  
                                > > Freud is supposed to have said
                                > > "Civilisation has made everyone psychotic".
                                > >
                                > > And maybe there is something a little crazy
                                > > about the whole idea of trying to reproduce
                                > > the sound of an orchestra while you
                                > > are sitting in your living room.
                                > > (cf Flanders and Swann "Song of reproduction")
                                > >
                                > > Still, I cannot resist commenting
                                > > on a specific form of this
                                > > craziness that seems to me personally
                                > > to be particularly crazy.
                                > > And of these froms, the most pervasive is
                                > > the mania for loudness.
                                > >
                                > > Now orchestral music is somewhat
                                > > loud at times. and dynamic contrasts
                                > > are an aspect of 19th century music
                                > > especially. Beethoven started people
                                > > on the track of the crescendo as
                                > > a way to whip up excitement and
                                > > did they ever run with it!
                                > >
                                > > But it seems to me obvious that
                                > > people get carried away on this.
                                > > In real orchestral music at sensible locations
                                > > , I think it essentially
                                > > NEVER happens that there is 110 dB of
                                > > energy at 20 Hz--or anywhere else.
                                > >
                                > > Audio people of a certain kind have always been inclined
                                > > to be intrigued with loudness. I think
                                > > this is because it is so OBVIOUS.
                                > >
                                > > If I play my Spendor SP1/2 system for
                                > > someone and show them how perfectly
                                > > the tone of a violin is captured.
                                > > then depending on who they are, they
                                > > may not even know that this is so.
                                > > Unless I play along, the perfection,
                                > > or near that, may not be observed.
                                > >
                                > > But if I took them downstairs and played
                                > > the end of the Pines of Rome on the
                                > > Cerwin Vegas--anyone could hear
                                > > how loud and clean it was. Indeed
                                > > I could crank it up to be louder than
                                > > a real performance would have been--
                                > > a lot louder than the level at plausible
                                > > audience locations(as opposed to
                                > > close to the brass).
                                > >
                                > > People are tempted by the obvious.
                                > > This seems a principle of life.
                                > > Subtlety lives on but in private
                                > > as it were.
                                > >
                                > > This is so even in music itself. Modern
                                > > orchestral music is louder and more aggressive
                                > > than orchestral music was in the 19th
                                > > century. Instruments have been steadily
                                > > modified to play louder and more brilliantly.
                                > > And rock of course has upped the ante
                                > > too.
                                > >
                                > > In the context that everyone is a little crazy
                                > > I would suggest that excessive loudness is
                                > > really crazy.
                                > >
                                > > I recall a friend of mine, musically
                                > > sophisticated, who was exposed to a Dahlquist
                                > > DQ10 system at someone's house. I asked
                                > > her how she had found the sound. She
                                > > said
                                > > "It was loud. So loud that that was as
                                > > far as I got--I just walked away as fast as I could"
                                > >
                                > > I recall a CES years ago. Enid Lumley and I
                                > > were together at a Wilson demo. Dave played some
                                > > music at plausible levels. Then he stopped
                                > > and said to Enid and me--"This next is
                                > > going to be really loud. You might want to leave".
                                > > Nice of him to give warning. But does this
                                > > not seem indicative of a problem? that
                                > > his customers were expecting levels that
                                > > Dave himself thought that people who cared
                                > > about their hearing (at least for the rest
                                > > of the show) were best off to avoid? I am not saying
                                > > Dave was at fault here. He probably knew
                                > > what his customers wanted to hear demoed. But
                                > > one could despair of precisely that aspect
                                > > of audio consumerism.
                                > >
                                > > I am afraid that is too often the problem.
                                > > I like orchestral music and have no patience
                                > > with un-subwoofered mini speakers. But
                                > > there is realism in dynamics and bass
                                > > and then there is wretched excess.
                                > >
                                > > As a hobby people can interest themselves
                                > > in anything. But being interested
                                > > in excessive loudness seems to me the bottom of the barrel.
                                > > One thinks of Dr. Sam Johnson
                                > > "last refuge of"[not a scoundrel but rather
                                > > an audio crackpot}. Every time I read
                                > > about 4000 watt bass amplifiers, my attention wanders
                                > > very fast.
                                > >
                                > > REG
                                > >
                                >
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