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Re: Recognizing things

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  • HM
    The energy radiated backwards is the same like radiated forward. The rear wall reflects this energy and diffuses it more than the font signal is diffused. It
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 31, 2012
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      The energy radiated backwards is the same like radiated forward. The rear wall reflects this energy and diffuses it more than the font signal is diffused. It comes later than the front energy, later than 2ms required for ear-brain integrating both to be received as one signal. Otherwise there would be too much cancellation.
      Placing the Maggies at 1/3 of room length and listen fom 2/3 position allows to hear the first arrival of direct sound, after tha the direct sound reflection from the wall behind the listener cancels with the arrival of the back radiated reflected energy.
      This works well in theory but practice is relative dirty with a lot of diffusion.
      The vertical tweeter strip on the imside, the speakers toed in for many reasons like obtaining equidistance from the ear for woofer and tweeter section, cancellation of sidewall reflection, prolanging the tweeters rear path by more reflection to have some attenuation, etc,

      Most classical CD recordings come with inverted polarity (near 90% of my collection), so front radiatiun comes fuzzy, rear energy correctly poled but diffused.
      Due to all such effects the ear receives a wrong direct and strong diffused indirect sound like from a distant source. No wonder if the sound is located behind the Maggies.
      Some people place the tweeter outside, this makes the soubd even worse, it is a negative Shuffler effect, defocusses the imaging etc.

      My motivation of fixing the tweeter wire problems of my broken Maggies has been postponed for many years...
      BR HM
      aka Cato

      >
      > So did Dave Wilson of his Wilson speakers in an interview.
      >
      > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Tom Mallin <tmallin4@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Jonathan Valin has frequently told the story (or parts of it) in TAS of his
      > > first hearing of Maggies at Chicago then-dealer Basil. He thought he was
      > > hearing someone playing a piano in the next room.
      > >
      > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Peter <alcomdata@> wrote:
      > >
      > > > **
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > I have heard many stories about Klipschorns and Magnepans being
      > > > particularly good for some reason at sounding "live in the next room."
      > > >
      > > > You could have heard such stories from me, too, which my Maggie 20.1s or
      > > > (WAY back in the day), the Tympani IIIC's. a good friend who's a member of
      > > > the Philadelphia Orchestra says the same thing about his 3.6's.
      > > >
      > > > I can only speculate that it's because of the different way the Maggies
      > > > load a room.
      > > >
      > > > Peter
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Edward
      Hi Robert Could this radiation problem with Magneplanars be addressed by putting the tweeter strip in the middle of the speaker, sandwiched by the midrange and
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 1, 2012
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        Hi Robert

        Could this radiation problem with Magneplanars be addressed by putting the tweeter strip in the middle of the speaker, sandwiched by the midrange and bass panels (each now divided in two)? In other words, a sideways line-source MTM, sort of like the architecture of the big McIntosh speakers that you reviewed?

        Maybe the sound would lose its appeal for Maggie fans....

        Edward

        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > It is a fact that Magnepans often have quite flat in room power response. I recall some measurements that Martin Colloms did
        > of some one of them(MG3s maybe?) where the power response
        > graph looked almost drawn with a ruler. He described it as "almost too good to be true"
        >
        > Ubnfortunately, this has rather little to do with using the speakers
        > in an ordinary way.
        >
        > In particular, to look at the total room response(power response) eliminates the main problem of the speakers, namely that they have a completely screwy radiation pattern because of being in effect a very large midrange radiator next to a very narrow tweeter.
        > The radiation pattern is very odd as a result, like listening to a two way speaker with a 12 inch woofer and a 1 inch tweeter turned on its side. Look at figure 4 here
        > http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2
        > This makes the speakers tend to sound extremely colored if
        > you are listening to the direct radiation in any sense.
      • Peter
        ... http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2 This makes the speakers tend to sound extremely colored if
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 1, 2012
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          > Look at figure 4 here
          http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2
          This makes the speakers tend to sound extremely colored if
          you are listening to the direct radiation in any sense.

          The same article finished up with this (online only--not in the dead-tree edition) from "Siegfied" (sic) Linkwitz:
           
           
          In the review, Atkinson also repeatedly pointed out the difficulty of measuring large panel speakers without having a large anechoic chamber.


        • Robert
          This would surely help. It is one of the oddities of the audio industry that this idea is hardly ever used--even though it occurred already as early as the
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 1, 2012
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            This would surely help.
            It is one of the oddities of the audio industry
            that this idea is hardly ever used--even though
            it occurred already as early as the original Quads.
            It is not just Magnepan, King Sound also put
            the tweeter element off to the side in the PrinceII
            so that only in one particular spot (horzontally
            speaking) did the speaker work correctly.
            SOmetime the audio industry seems almost stubbornly
            to do things wrong.
            REG


            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Robert
            >
            > Could this radiation problem with Magneplanars be addressed by putting the tweeter strip in the middle of the speaker, sandwiched by the midrange and bass panels (each now divided in two)? In other words, a sideways line-source MTM, sort of like the architecture of the big McIntosh speakers that you reviewed?
            >
            > Maybe the sound would lose its appeal for Maggie fans....
            >
            > Edward
            >
            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@> wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > It is a fact that Magnepans often have quite flat in room power response. I recall some measurements that Martin Colloms did
            > > of some one of them(MG3s maybe?) where the power response
            > > graph looked almost drawn with a ruler. He described it as "almost too good to be true"
            > >
            > > Ubnfortunately, this has rather little to do with using the speakers
            > > in an ordinary way.
            > >
            > > In particular, to look at the total room response(power response) eliminates the main problem of the speakers, namely that they have a completely screwy radiation pattern because of being in effect a very large midrange radiator next to a very narrow tweeter.
            > > The radiation pattern is very odd as a result, like listening to a two way speaker with a 12 inch woofer and a 1 inch tweeter turned on its side. Look at figure 4 here
            > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2
            > > This makes the speakers tend to sound extremely colored if
            > > you are listening to the direct radiation in any sense.
            >
          • Robert
            But in fact there is nothing difficult to see at all about the weird off axis pattern. The details of this might have been hard to measure but (pace Tony)
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 1, 2012
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              But in fact there is nothing difficult to
              see at all about the weird off axis pattern.
              The details of this might have been
              hard to measure but (pace Tony) anyone
              who knows anything about how things radiate
              would know that a big wide midrange panel
              crossed over to a narrow tweeter panel at one
              side was going to have a weird pattern.

              There is no doubt that this is so.
              What the audible effects are, your call.
              To me , these speakers , all of them I
              have ever heard, sounded oddly colored indeed.

              This is simply a no -no, to put a wide radiator
              next to a ribbon. In the DALI Megalines
              the mid radiator was not that wide--but
              even so, one had to sit in a precise spot. (DALI
              supplied a template to lay on the floor to indicate
              the axis on which you had to sit!)
              And =with a really wide mid panel , one is in big trouble,

              Some people may not care,but that does not mean
              the problem is not there. It just means that
              some people are more sensitive to exact frequency
              response behavior than others.

              REG

              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter <alcomdata@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Look at figure 4 here
              > http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements-part-2
              > This makes the speakers tend to sound extremely colored if
              > you are listening to the direct radiation in any sense.
              >
              > The same article finished up with this (online only--not in the dead-tree edition) from "Siegfied" (sic) Linkwitz:
              >  
              > http://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-more-comments%c2%a0
              >  
              > In the review, Atkinson also repeatedly pointed out the difficulty of measuring large panel speakers without having a large anechoic chamber.
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              >
            • Edward
              Hi Robert Perhaps fans of multi-way panel speakers just like the soundstage effects of tweeter strips on the edge, radiating almost into free space. The
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 2, 2012
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                Hi Robert

                Perhaps fans of multi-way panel speakers just like the "soundstage" effects of tweeter strips on the edge, radiating almost into free space. The panel equivalent of the narrow-front box speaker?

                Edward



                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regtas43@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>> It is not just Magnepan, King Sound also put
                > the tweeter element off to the side in the PrinceII
                > so that only in one particular spot (horzontally
                > speaking) did the speaker work correctly.
                > SOmetime the audio industry seems almost stubbornly
                > to do things wrong.
                > REG
                >
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