Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?

Expand Messages
  • Bomwell, Alan
    Yes, the Mahler series is wonderful! Thanks for the other tips? Al Sent via BlackBerry Wireless handheld From: Peter Allen [mailto:alcomdata@yahoo.com] Sent:
    Message 1 of 33 , Jun 12, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Yes, the Mahler series is wonderful! Thanks for the other tips?

      Al
      Sent via BlackBerry Wireless handheld

       
      From: Peter Allen [mailto:alcomdata@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 07:30 AM
      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?
       
       

      Thanks, Al!  I will!
       
      I've heard great things about the SFO's Mahler cycle.  Are the "rumors" true?
       
      I can also recommend hi-rez issues from the BSO (available on SACD or download), the Philadelphia Orchestra (SACD only, I think), and the CSO (their SACD of the Verdi Requiem is now my ultimate system reference recording.)
       
      Thanks again. . .  I plan to order the Sub 2 tonight if my wallet will cooperate.
       
      Peter

      From: "Bomwell, Alan" <abomwell@...>
      To: "'regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com'" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:12 AM
      Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?

       
      Peter,

      You, and others here with multi-channel setups, might really love the SFO live recordings. I just returned home from travels allowing me to hear three weeks of daily live music (The International Horn Show, a Batimore Symphony concert, and The National Brass Symposium). Upon returning I received the SFO Beethoven's Leonore Overture #3, Sym #7 hybrid SACD. It's fabulous!

      My new system uses Sanders 10c fronts with the Gradient Helsinki's for surrounds. With DSP for bass below 314Hz my room sound is very natural and on this particular recording the bass has the heft of what one would hear in a live hall.

      Regards,

      Al

      PS. I have found most all of the SFO recent recordings to be excellent!
      Sent via BlackBerry Wireless handheld

       
      From: Peter Allen [mailto:alcomdata@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 06:33 AM
      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?
       
       
      Ø   I am having a little trouble interpreting this. I thought the initial post was that there was not
      enough bass heft?
      Let me clarify. I’ve never heard ANY two-channel system, anywhere, have anything close to the “heft” of a full-orchestra playing big music, especially the Scriabin. 
       
      Multichannel is another story. Is it "almost live?"  Well, no.  Does it have as much "heft" as 12th row center listening to Scriabin?  No again, but it's close enough for government work (which I'm allowed to say because I work for the government).  It's also far closer than two channel, even if the two-channel system is supplemented with a center channel, a woof, or both.
       
      My own system is 7.1, and will soon be 7.2. All 7 of the main speakers reach low enough to be considered “large.” My current woof is a 15" Velodyne, and the .2 woof will be the big Paradigm.  (Serendipitously, the Paradigm woof and my Anthem prepro use the same DSP software.)
       
      Peter
       

      From: Robert <regtas43@...>
      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:35 PM
      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?

       
      I am having a little trouble interpreting this.
      I thought the initial post was that there was not
      enough bass heft?
      Now it seems there is?

      Anyway, regardless of "specs" in my experience
      one does not really get slam and heft
      from dipole panels. Not really.
      Even when the steady state response in room looks
      quite good.
      Why is a question.

      For what it is worth, I have heard the Scriabin
      live from a similar distance. This is a sonic
      experience that is not very likely to arise
      in home stereo. For one thing, it is typically
      really really loud--most orchestral music is not
      so loud, but Scriabin really pours it on in the
      loud spots.
      In home listening rooms, even supposing that your
      equipment is happy that loud, most of the time
      there is so much sound from the room--which is
      of course pretty much all wrong, arriving way too early
      and not being properly balanced in the diffuse field
      --that the result is unpleasant and confused.

      This is a fundamental problem with really loud music
      at home. Even a dead room by ordinary standards
      will sound overloaded at such volumes.
      In my experience, this type of volume can sound
      pleasant in reproduced form only in an RFZ (reflection
      free zone) room. Otherwise, it just sounds
      all confused and somewhat yucky.

      Another partial alternative in my experience
      is horn loading of the mid and tweeter.
      Of course that has problems of its own
      but one can at least cut the room sound down to a level
      that makes the result at least reasonably tolerable.

      Of course one also has to ask one's self
      if one even really wants this experience at home.
      I am not even that crazy about it in real life
      (though I like the piece of music). Once in a while.
      But mostly for that kind of thing I like to sit
      a bit further back.

      REG

      PS Most speakers are balanced all wrong with respect
      to power response versus on axis response to sound
      plausible when there is a lot of room sound.
      Concert halls are typically quite flat(after a bass
      boost) to around 2-4 kHz and then they droop
      a lot being almost gone by around 8k as far
      as reverberant field energy is concerned.
      If you set up such a thing at home, it sounds
      a lot like a concert. But it is not so easy to do.
      If you look at this analytically you will see that this
      actually works quite well for this purpose
      www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/cerwin_vega_cls-215/
      EQ it flat and it sounds quite a lot like an orchestra in concert
      much more so than most speakers when the music is loud.
      (For one thing it will actually play loudly without
      distortion--really loudly).
      Naturally, no one much took me seriously when I pointed
      this out. Even though they could have tried it for
      less money than they typically spend on cables and
      the like. That's audio for you. Imagination and a spirit
      of experimentation are thin on the ground.
      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter Allen <alcomdata@...> wrote:
      >
      > A footnote to my previous post about the Maggie 20.1's bass.  I know enough to treat all manufacturer specs with even less than a grain of salt, but. . .  the 20.1's plus or minus 3db spec was from 25Hz to 40KHz.  Martin Logan's flagship, the CLX Art, which costs twice as much as the Maggie 20.1's, has a plus or minus 3db spec from 56Hz. to 23 KHz. The Martin Logan's bass radiating area is roughly one square foot less than the Maggie's.
      >  
      > Peter
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
      > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 8:35 PM
      > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      > No offense, but the problem here is not at my guess
      > the subwoofer issue(though this does look like a really
      > impressive subwoofer) but rather the Maggie 20.1s themselves.
      > I am not familiar with this specific speaker. But generally
      > speaking panel speakers lack "heft" in my experience,
      > Magnepans in particular, though I have not had all much
      > experience with the Magnepans.
      > I think this has to do with various factors. One is that
      > often panel dipoles do not have much output down low, unless
      > they derive it from a resonance--and below that resonance
      > they die very fast. The dipole rolloff eats bass like crazy.
      > And NO dipole can go down to close to DC as box speakers can.
      > (The way low stuff is a component of real bass--one reason why
      > digital bass is better than vinyl bass[unless you use a Moerch DP8 tonearm, the (only) one that really works in the deep deep bas]
      >
      > Using dynamic drivers as dipoles(Carver Amazing, for example)
      > gets around this pretty well in my experience--in that the
      > resonance there in the Carvers is WAY low and the dipole rolloff
      > is well compensated.
      > But electrostats and planar magnetics generally just do not
      > do bass heft very well.
      > Even modest sized and not very pricey box speakers can walk
      > all over the Quads for example for bass, including the big Quads.
      > My impression is that almost everyone who likes big music
      > tends to end up subwoofering such speakers, with a fairly high
      > crossover. The general perception that panels are wimpy has
      > some element of truth!
      >
      > Of course advocates of dipole bass will say that people
      > who use box speakers for bass just like the excitation
      > of room modes. But I do not think that is it. Or at least
      > not all of it.
      >
      > REG
      >
      > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter Allen <alcomdata@> wrote:
      > >
      > >  
      > > For me, one of the biggest differences between live and reproduced music(and by this, I mean a full or even beefed-up orchestra playing power music) is the bass.  The cellos, basses, trombones, tubas, bassoons, contrabassons, organ, and even piano, just doesn't have the "heft" at home that it does in Verizon Hall, home of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
      > >  
      > > The Paradigm Signature Sub S2 truly does sound like the sub to end all subs, and with 6 10" drivers, the acceleration should mate well with my main speakers, Maggie 20.1's.  Does anyone have one or more of these or heard them in a decent setup?
      > >  
      > > Here's a review from Audioholics, which seems to offer much more technically oriented reviews than most of the standard sources:  http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/paradigm-sig-sub-2-1/paradigm-sig-sub-2-introduction 
      > >  
      > > Peter
      > >
      >





    • Bomwell, Alan
      Yes, the Mahler series is wonderful! Thanks for the other tips? Al Sent via BlackBerry Wireless handheld From: Peter Allen [mailto:alcomdata@yahoo.com] Sent:
      Message 33 of 33 , Jun 12, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Yes, the Mahler series is wonderful! Thanks for the other tips?

        Al
        Sent via BlackBerry Wireless handheld

         
        From: Peter Allen [mailto:alcomdata@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 07:30 AM
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?
         
         

        Thanks, Al!  I will!
         
        I've heard great things about the SFO's Mahler cycle.  Are the "rumors" true?
         
        I can also recommend hi-rez issues from the BSO (available on SACD or download), the Philadelphia Orchestra (SACD only, I think), and the CSO (their SACD of the Verdi Requiem is now my ultimate system reference recording.)
         
        Thanks again. . .  I plan to order the Sub 2 tonight if my wallet will cooperate.
         
        Peter

        From: "Bomwell, Alan" <abomwell@...>
        To: "'regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com'" <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:12 AM
        Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?

         
        Peter,

        You, and others here with multi-channel setups, might really love the SFO live recordings. I just returned home from travels allowing me to hear three weeks of daily live music (The International Horn Show, a Batimore Symphony concert, and The National Brass Symposium). Upon returning I received the SFO Beethoven's Leonore Overture #3, Sym #7 hybrid SACD. It's fabulous!

        My new system uses Sanders 10c fronts with the Gradient Helsinki's for surrounds. With DSP for bass below 314Hz my room sound is very natural and on this particular recording the bass has the heft of what one would hear in a live hall.

        Regards,

        Al

        PS. I have found most all of the SFO recent recordings to be excellent!
        Sent via BlackBerry Wireless handheld

         
        From: Peter Allen [mailto:alcomdata@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 06:33 AM
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?
         
         
        Ø   I am having a little trouble interpreting this. I thought the initial post was that there was not
        enough bass heft?
        Let me clarify. I’ve never heard ANY two-channel system, anywhere, have anything close to the “heft” of a full-orchestra playing big music, especially the Scriabin. 
         
        Multichannel is another story. Is it "almost live?"  Well, no.  Does it have as much "heft" as 12th row center listening to Scriabin?  No again, but it's close enough for government work (which I'm allowed to say because I work for the government).  It's also far closer than two channel, even if the two-channel system is supplemented with a center channel, a woof, or both.
         
        My own system is 7.1, and will soon be 7.2. All 7 of the main speakers reach low enough to be considered “large.” My current woof is a 15" Velodyne, and the .2 woof will be the big Paradigm.  (Serendipitously, the Paradigm woof and my Anthem prepro use the same DSP software.)
         
        Peter
         

        From: Robert <regtas43@...>
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:35 PM
        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?

         
        I am having a little trouble interpreting this.
        I thought the initial post was that there was not
        enough bass heft?
        Now it seems there is?

        Anyway, regardless of "specs" in my experience
        one does not really get slam and heft
        from dipole panels. Not really.
        Even when the steady state response in room looks
        quite good.
        Why is a question.

        For what it is worth, I have heard the Scriabin
        live from a similar distance. This is a sonic
        experience that is not very likely to arise
        in home stereo. For one thing, it is typically
        really really loud--most orchestral music is not
        so loud, but Scriabin really pours it on in the
        loud spots.
        In home listening rooms, even supposing that your
        equipment is happy that loud, most of the time
        there is so much sound from the room--which is
        of course pretty much all wrong, arriving way too early
        and not being properly balanced in the diffuse field
        --that the result is unpleasant and confused.

        This is a fundamental problem with really loud music
        at home. Even a dead room by ordinary standards
        will sound overloaded at such volumes.
        In my experience, this type of volume can sound
        pleasant in reproduced form only in an RFZ (reflection
        free zone) room. Otherwise, it just sounds
        all confused and somewhat yucky.

        Another partial alternative in my experience
        is horn loading of the mid and tweeter.
        Of course that has problems of its own
        but one can at least cut the room sound down to a level
        that makes the result at least reasonably tolerable.

        Of course one also has to ask one's self
        if one even really wants this experience at home.
        I am not even that crazy about it in real life
        (though I like the piece of music). Once in a while.
        But mostly for that kind of thing I like to sit
        a bit further back.

        REG

        PS Most speakers are balanced all wrong with respect
        to power response versus on axis response to sound
        plausible when there is a lot of room sound.
        Concert halls are typically quite flat(after a bass
        boost) to around 2-4 kHz and then they droop
        a lot being almost gone by around 8k as far
        as reverberant field energy is concerned.
        If you set up such a thing at home, it sounds
        a lot like a concert. But it is not so easy to do.
        If you look at this analytically you will see that this
        actually works quite well for this purpose
        www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/cerwin_vega_cls-215/
        EQ it flat and it sounds quite a lot like an orchestra in concert
        much more so than most speakers when the music is loud.
        (For one thing it will actually play loudly without
        distortion--really loudly).
        Naturally, no one much took me seriously when I pointed
        this out. Even though they could have tried it for
        less money than they typically spend on cables and
        the like. That's audio for you. Imagination and a spirit
        of experimentation are thin on the ground.
        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter Allen <alcomdata@...> wrote:
        >
        > A footnote to my previous post about the Maggie 20.1's bass.  I know enough to treat all manufacturer specs with even less than a grain of salt, but. . .  the 20.1's plus or minus 3db spec was from 25Hz to 40KHz.  Martin Logan's flagship, the CLX Art, which costs twice as much as the Maggie 20.1's, has a plus or minus 3db spec from 56Hz. to 23 KHz. The Martin Logan's bass radiating area is roughly one square foot less than the Maggie's.
        >  
        > Peter
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Robert <regtas43@...>
        > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 8:35 PM
        > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: The sub to end all subs?
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        > No offense, but the problem here is not at my guess
        > the subwoofer issue(though this does look like a really
        > impressive subwoofer) but rather the Maggie 20.1s themselves.
        > I am not familiar with this specific speaker. But generally
        > speaking panel speakers lack "heft" in my experience,
        > Magnepans in particular, though I have not had all much
        > experience with the Magnepans.
        > I think this has to do with various factors. One is that
        > often panel dipoles do not have much output down low, unless
        > they derive it from a resonance--and below that resonance
        > they die very fast. The dipole rolloff eats bass like crazy.
        > And NO dipole can go down to close to DC as box speakers can.
        > (The way low stuff is a component of real bass--one reason why
        > digital bass is better than vinyl bass[unless you use a Moerch DP8 tonearm, the (only) one that really works in the deep deep bas]
        >
        > Using dynamic drivers as dipoles(Carver Amazing, for example)
        > gets around this pretty well in my experience--in that the
        > resonance there in the Carvers is WAY low and the dipole rolloff
        > is well compensated.
        > But electrostats and planar magnetics generally just do not
        > do bass heft very well.
        > Even modest sized and not very pricey box speakers can walk
        > all over the Quads for example for bass, including the big Quads.
        > My impression is that almost everyone who likes big music
        > tends to end up subwoofering such speakers, with a fairly high
        > crossover. The general perception that panels are wimpy has
        > some element of truth!
        >
        > Of course advocates of dipole bass will say that people
        > who use box speakers for bass just like the excitation
        > of room modes. But I do not think that is it. Or at least
        > not all of it.
        >
        > REG
        >
        > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Peter Allen <alcomdata@> wrote:
        > >
        > >  
        > > For me, one of the biggest differences between live and reproduced music(and by this, I mean a full or even beefed-up orchestra playing power music) is the bass.  The cellos, basses, trombones, tubas, bassoons, contrabassons, organ, and even piano, just doesn't have the "heft" at home that it does in Verizon Hall, home of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
        > >  
        > > The Paradigm Signature Sub S2 truly does sound like the sub to end all subs, and with 6 10" drivers, the acceleration should mate well with my main speakers, Maggie 20.1's.  Does anyone have one or more of these or heard them in a decent setup?
        > >  
        > > Here's a review from Audioholics, which seems to offer much more technically oriented reviews than most of the standard sources:  http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/paradigm-sig-sub-2-1/paradigm-sig-sub-2-introduction 
        > >  
        > > Peter
        > >
        >





      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.