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Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips

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  • Will_H
    Could just as likely be due to different temperature or humidity in the room... recall that it was a very informal comparison over time based on memory. ...
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 31, 2012
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      Could just as likely be due to different temperature or humidity in the
      room... recall that it was a very informal comparison over time based on
      memory.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "sunilm_k2" <sunilm_k2@...>
      To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 1:32 AM
      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips


      >I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
      >regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with much
      >better results, although there too you have to experiment. I like Audience,
      >also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen several manufacturers
      >recommend outting all your equipment on the same circuit (but not your
      >computer). Could the apparent drop in bass be caused by higher output
      >impedance of the regenrator?
      >
      > --S
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Ted Rook
      Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 1, 2012
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        Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
        regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
        musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
        is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
        quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
        conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
        one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
        something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
        in the sales pitch?

        Ted


        On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:

        > I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
        > regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
        > much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
        > like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
        > several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
        > same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
        > bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
        >
        > --S
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Tom Mallin
        Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5: http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/ PS makes no
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 1, 2012
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          Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:


          PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.

           

          On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
           

          Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
          regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
          musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
          is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
          quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
          conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
          one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
          something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
          in the sales pitch?

          Ted

          On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:

          > I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
          > regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
          > much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
          > like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
          > several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
          > same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
          > bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
          >
          > --S
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


        • Fred
          Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets?  It s a quick and simple safety tester for
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 1, 2012
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            Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
            It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.

            It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
            The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
            Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.

            Fred.



            From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...>
            To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
            Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips

             
            Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:


            PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.

             

            On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
             
            Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
            regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
            musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
            is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
            quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
            conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
            one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
            something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
            in the sales pitch?

            Ted

            On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:

            > I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
            > regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
            > much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
            > like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
            > several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
            > same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
            > bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
            >
            > --S
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >




          • Robert
            Good point here. Think of your household current (mains). It is connected to a network, powered by a stepdown transformer, (long distance distribution is at
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 1, 2012
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              Good point here. Think of your household current (mains).
              It is connected to a network, powered by a stepdown transformer,
              (long distance distribution is at higher voltages),
              that serves a whole neighborhood.
              Clearly the kind of power draw that a power amp
              makes when someone hits a bass drum is not going
              to amount to much to a network that is powering
              multiple full house airconditioning units and so on.
              So the chances of a droop in voltage associated
              to the demands of the music are next to nil.
              What is wrong with the mains power is that it
              has a lot of crud on it--because that huge
              network also acts like a radio antenna and so on.
              What you need(if you need anything) is a filter
              to get that out--without reducing the ability
              of your audio to grab power when it needs to.

              At the risk of sounding like Mr Know It All yet
              one more time, I wrote long ago in TAS(in my article
              on the Tice clock, reprinted on www.regonaudio.com)
              how to do this--not that it is any kind of secret.
              You can do it with a parallel filter for example
              (as I discussed) You can also do it with ferrite on
              the power cords.

              The idea is that RF is really high frequency. The
              sudden power draw of your power amp is much much slower--
              it is fast compared to steady state and compared
              perhaps to human time scales but very slow
              indeed compared to radio frequencies. So one can
              filter out the RF crud without causing any problems
              at all about the power draw speed and intensity.

              This is really a well known business. And it does
              not amount to much for power amps as long as
              they are not unstable in the presence of RF stuff.
              (like that hunk of junk the Spectral DMA50--I
              am still holding onto resentment over putting out
              money for that junk although I got the money out of it).

              Now if you need to do REALLY low noise things(single
              channel recording in the biologists' sense for example)
              then it is battery time or really extreme power
              line filtering. But audio seldom needs anything
              close to that. And certainly power amps do not.
              And if they are well designed they do not even
              need any help with the RF filtering either--it is
              all supposed to be in the amp!

              REG

              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
              >
              > Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
              >
              > It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.
              >
              > It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
              >
              > The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
              > Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.
              >
              > Fred.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >________________________________
              > > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...>
              > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
              > >Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
              > >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:
              > >
              > >
              > >http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/%c3%82%c2%a0
              > >
              > >
              > >PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.
              > >
              > >
              > > 
              > >
              > >
              > >On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >> 
              > >>Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
              > >>regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
              > >>musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
              > >>is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
              > >>quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
              > >>conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
              > >>one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
              > >>something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
              > >>in the sales pitch?
              > >>
              > >>Ted
              > >>
              > >>On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:
              > >>
              > >>> I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
              > >>> regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
              > >>> much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
              > >>> like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
              > >>> several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
              > >>> same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
              > >>> bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
              > >>>
              > >>> --S
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> ------------------------------------
              > >>>
              > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • HM
              In Europe mains should provide a source resistance near 0.4 Ohm. It can be tested with an electric heater with a known wattage, say 2300W @230V=10A. Under
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 1, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                In Europe mains should provide a source resistance near 0.4 Ohm.
                It can be tested with an electric heater with a known wattage, say 2300W @230V=10A. Under such load 0.4Ohm will give 4V voltage drop easily measured at a parallel socket.
                Ohms laws are sufficient for calculation.
                BR HM
                >
                > Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
                >
                > It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.
                >
                > It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
                >
                > The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
                > Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.
                >
                > Fred.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >________________________________
                > > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...>
                > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                > >Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
                > >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                > >
                > >
                > > 
                > >Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:
                > >
                > >
                > >http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/%c3%82%c2%a0
                > >
                > >
                > >PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.
                > >
                > >
                > > 
                > >
                > >
                > >On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >> 
                > >>Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
                > >>regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
                > >>musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
                > >>is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
                > >>quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
                > >>conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
                > >>one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
                > >>something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
                > >>in the sales pitch?
                > >>
                > >>Ted
                > >>
                > >>On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:
                > >>
                > >>> I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
                > >>> regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
                > >>> much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
                > >>> like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
                > >>> several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
                > >>> same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
                > >>> bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
                > >>>
                > >>> --S
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>> ------------------------------------
                > >>>
                > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Fred
                I just tried one of my switched 13A sockets with my trusty old Megger LT5 Digital Loop Tester and read 0.17 Ohms. At 240V dit means roughly 1,412 Amps (706A if
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 2, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I just tried one of my switched 13A sockets with my trusty old Megger LT5 Digital Loop Tester and read 0.17 Ohms.
                  At 240V dit means roughly 1,412 Amps (706A if 120V) short circuit current could flow before any fuse or circuit breaker opened.  They're a "worst case" protection and however high or low the "rating" of a mains circuit or equipment connected, enormous energy can be delivered before such protection acts. 
                  Quite a sobering thought!
                  Fred.


                  From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
                  To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012, 7:24
                  Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips

                   
                  In Europe mains should provide a source resistance near 0.4 Ohm.
                  It can be tested with an electric heater with a known wattage, say 2300W @230V=10A. Under such load 0.4Ohm will give 4V voltage drop easily measured at a parallel socket.
                  Ohms laws are sufficient for calculation.
                  BR HM
                  >
                  > Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
                  >
                  > It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.
                  >
                  > It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
                  >
                  > The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
                  > Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.
                  >
                  > Fred.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >________________________________
                  > > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...>
                  > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
                  > >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 
                  > >Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/ 
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> 
                  > >>Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
                  > >>regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
                  > >>musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
                  > >>is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
                  > >>quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
                  > >>conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
                  > >>one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
                  > >>something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
                  > >>in the sales pitch?
                  > >>
                  > >>Ted
                  > >>
                  > >>On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>> I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
                  > >>> regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
                  > >>> much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
                  > >>> like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
                  > >>> several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
                  > >>> same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
                  > >>> bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
                  > >>>
                  > >>> --S
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> ------------------------------------
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >



                • Tom Mallin
                  Anyone here know enough about how the usual method of providing surge protection through a power strip works to speculate whether such surge protection could
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 2, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Anyone here know enough about how the usual method of providing surge protection through a power strip works to speculate whether such surge protection could limit the instantaneous power provided by the circuit under normal operating conditions, i.e., when there is no lightning or other cause of a voltage surge? 


                    On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                     

                    I just tried one of my switched 13A sockets with my trusty old Megger LT5 Digital Loop Tester and read 0.17 Ohms.
                    At 240V dit means roughly 1,412 Amps (706A if 120V) short circuit current could flow before any fuse or circuit breaker opened.  They're a "worst case" protection and however high or low the "rating" of a mains circuit or equipment connected, enormous energy can be delivered before such protection acts. 
                    Quite a sobering thought!
                    Fred.


                    From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
                    To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012, 7:24
                    Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips

                     
                    In Europe mains should provide a source resistance near 0.4 Ohm.
                    It can be tested with an electric heater with a known wattage, say 2300W @230V=10A. Under such load 0.4Ohm will give 4V voltage drop easily measured at a parallel socket.
                    Ohms laws are sufficient for calculation.
                    BR HM
                    >
                    > Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
                    >
                    > It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.
                    >
                    > It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
                    >
                    > The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
                    > Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.
                    >
                    > Fred.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >________________________________
                    > > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...>
                    > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
                    > >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 
                    > >Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/ 
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> 
                    > >>Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
                    > >>regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
                    > >>musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
                    > >>is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
                    > >>quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
                    > >>conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
                    > >>one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
                    > >>something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
                    > >>in the sales pitch?
                    > >>
                    > >>Ted
                    > >>
                    > >>On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>> I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
                    > >>> regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
                    > >>> much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
                    > >>> like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
                    > >>> several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
                    > >>> same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
                    > >>> bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
                    > >>>
                    > >>> --S
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> ------------------------------------
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >




                  • HM
                    Hi Fred Dont trust this instrument. With a typical specific resistance of copper a 15AWG wiring will allow 27ft of a paired line to achieve that 0.17Ohm. I
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Fred
                      Dont trust this instrument.
                      With a typical specific resistance of copper a 15AWG wiring will allow 27ft of a paired line to achieve that 0.17Ohm.
                      I guess you dont live in a kennel with the socket close to the electricity counter without any fuses between, so there must be a basic error in your measurement or your interpretation.
                      BR HM

                      >
                      > I just tried one of my switched 13A sockets with my trusty old Megger LT5 Digital Loop Tester and read 0.17 Ohms.
                      > At 240V dit means roughly 1,412 Amps (706A if 120V) short circuit current could flow before any fuse or circuit breaker opened.  They're a "worst case" protection and however high or low the "rating" of a mains circuit or equipment connected, enormous energy can be delivered before such protection acts. 
                      >
                      > Quite a sobering thought!
                      > Fred.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >________________________________
                      > > From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
                      > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012, 7:24
                      > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > 
                      > >In Europe mains should provide a source resistance near 0.4 Ohm.
                      > >It can be tested with an electric heater with a known wattage, say 2300W @230V=10A. Under such load 0.4Ohm will give 4V voltage drop easily measured at a parallel socket.
                      > >Ohms laws are sufficient for calculation.
                      > >BR HM
                      > >>
                      > >> Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
                      > >>
                      > >> It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.
                      > >>
                      > >> It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
                      > >>
                      > >> The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
                      > >> Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.
                      > >>
                      > >> Fred.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> >________________________________
                      > >> > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@>
                      > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > >> >Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
                      > >> >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> > 
                      > >> >Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/%c3%83%c2%82%c3%82%c2%a0
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> > 
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@> wrote:
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >> 
                      > >> >>Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
                      > >> >>regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
                      > >> >>musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
                      > >> >>is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
                      > >> >>quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
                      > >> >>conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
                      > >> >>one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
                      > >> >>something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
                      > >> >>in the sales pitch?
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>Ted
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>> I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
                      > >> >>> regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
                      > >> >>> much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
                      > >> >>> like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
                      > >> >>> several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
                      > >> >>> same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
                      > >> >>> bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>> --S
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>> ------------------------------------
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>>
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >>
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >> >
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Fred
                      No error Hans, I do not have reason to suspect an error in measurement or interpretation! As you calculate, the socket is indeed very close to the fuse box
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 2, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment

                        No error Hans,
                        I do not have reason to suspect an error in measurement or interpretation!

                        As you calculate, the socket is indeed very close to the fuse box (30A fuse) and the electricity meter (and Utility supply fuses) and is a ring main circuit of 2.5mm2 wire - which is closer to 13AWG.
                        Your 15AWG is 1.65mm2 which is more toward the1.5mm sq. cable used in U.K. household lighting circuits.

                        Phew!  (April 1st was yesterday)
                        You had me worried for a moment!!

                        :-)

                        Fred.




                        From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
                        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012, 21:27
                        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips

                         
                        Hi Fred
                        Dont trust this instrument.
                        With a typical specific resistance of copper a 15AWG wiring will allow 27ft of a paired line to achieve that 0.17Ohm.
                        I guess you dont live in a kennel with the socket close to the electricity counter without any fuses between, so there must be a basic error in your measurement or your interpretation.
                        BR HM

                        >
                        > I just tried one of my switched 13A sockets with my trusty old Megger LT5 Digital Loop Tester and read 0.17 Ohms.
                        > At 240V dit means roughly 1,412 Amps (706A if 120V) short circuit current could flow before any fuse or circuit breaker opened.  They're a "worst case" protection and however high or low the "rating" of a mains circuit or equipment connected, enormous energy can be delivered before such protection acts. 
                        >
                        > Quite a sobering thought!
                        > Fred.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >________________________________
                        > > From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
                        > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012, 7:24
                        > >Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 
                        > >In Europe mains should provide a source resistance near 0.4 Ohm.
                        > >It can be tested with an electric heater with a known wattage, say 2300W @230V=10A. Under such load 0.4Ohm will give 4V voltage drop easily measured at a parallel socket.
                        > >Ohms laws are sufficient for calculation.
                        > >BR HM
                        > >>
                        > >> Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
                        > >>
                        > >> It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.
                        > >>
                        > >> It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
                        > >>
                        > >> The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
                        > >> Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.
                        > >>
                        > >> Fred.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> >________________________________
                        > >> > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@>
                        > >> >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> >Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
                        > >> >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> > 
                        > >> >Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/ 
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> > 
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@> wrote:
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >> 
                        > >> >>Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
                        > >> >>regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
                        > >> >>musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
                        > >> >>is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
                        > >> >>quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
                        > >> >>conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
                        > >> >>one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
                        > >> >>something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
                        > >> >>in the sales pitch?
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>Ted
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>> I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
                        > >> >>> regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
                        > >> >>> much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
                        > >> >>> like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
                        > >> >>> several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
                        > >> >>> same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
                        > >> >>> bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>> --S
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>> ------------------------------------
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>>
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >>
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >



                      • Fred
                        I d expect the power strip design tofilter high frequency energy,protect against excess current flow and voltage spikes significantly above normal mains
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 2, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment

                          I'd expect the power strip design to filter high frequency energy, protect against excess current flow and voltage spikes significantly above normal mains voltage but not impede normal power transfer.
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector

                          Even if thousands of extra amps became available, equipment operating normally would draw no more current than required IF the voltage (and supply frequency) remained unchanged.  If the power strip were to limit instantaneous power under normal operating conditions, I guess it could become rather hot!

                          :-)

                          Fred.



                          From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...>
                          To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012, 17:44
                          Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips

                           
                          Anyone here know enough about how the usual method of providing surge protection through a power strip works to speculate whether such surge protection could limit the instantaneous power provided by the circuit under normal operating conditions, i.e., when there is no lightning or other cause of a voltage surge? 


                          On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
                           
                          I just tried one of my switched 13A sockets with my trusty old Megger LT5 Digital Loop Tester and read 0.17 Ohms.
                          At 240V dit means roughly 1,412 Amps (706A if 120V) short circuit current could flow before any fuse or circuit breaker opened.  They're a "worst case" protection and however high or low the "rating" of a mains circuit or equipment connected, enormous energy can be delivered before such protection acts. 
                          Quite a sobering thought!
                          Fred.


                          From: HM <hmartinburm@...>
                          To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, 2 April 2012, 7:24
                          Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips

                           
                          In Europe mains should provide a source resistance near 0.4 Ohm.
                          It can be tested with an electric heater with a known wattage, say 2300W @230V=10A. Under such load 0.4Ohm will give 4V voltage drop easily measured at a parallel socket.
                          Ohms laws are sufficient for calculation.
                          BR HM
                          >
                          > Why not get an electrician around for half an hour to apply a Mains Loop Impedance Tester to your sockets? 
                          >
                          > It's a quick and simple safety tester for household power distribution and ground quality.
                          >
                          > It should indicate a fraction of an ohm between your AC mains phase and neutral (which in the UK at least, is usually at the same potential as Ground). 
                          >
                          > The impedance of your AC mains is low enough to enable vastly greater instantaneous power delivery than via an intervening device like the Regenerator.
                          > Unless you have particularly foul mains, I'd rid yourself of the thing.
                          >
                          > Fred.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >________________________________
                          > > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin4@...>
                          > >To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012, 22:26
                          > >Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Basic Power Strips
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >Here is the PS Audio advertising page for the Power Plant I have, the P5:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >http://www.psaudio.com/products/power/pw-power-plants/p5-power-plant/ 
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >PS makes no claim to being able to deliver 100% of the power the wall outlet can deliver.  Theoretically, at 120 volts, a 15 amp circuit should be able to deliver 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts.  On the linked page, the copy says in one spot "up to 1250 watts" and in another spot "up to 85% of the power coming out of the standard AC wall socket in your home."  The "standard AC wall socket" is probably a 15 amp one, which still makes the figures inconsistent since 85% of 1800 watts is 1530 watts.  While the outlets on the back of the PS are 20-amp outlets, the power cord's plug has the standard 15-amp configuration, so it is meant to be able to be powered from a 15-amp circuit.  I was using it with a 15-amp circuit.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > 
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Ted Rook <rooknrol@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >> 
                          > >>Not with sine wave steady state test signals but it might if the surge capacity of the
                          > >>regenerator could not keep up with the demand from the power amp as it might during
                          > >>musical bass and mid loud passages, pulses of low frequency energy are the tough test. This
                          > >>is kind of basic, that the AC conditioner has to be at least as good as the raw AC outlet
                          > >>quality in terms of ability to supply current peaks. It might be that this is an Achilles heel for
                          > >>conditioners and regenerators, that cleaning up the mains sine wave, or, to generate a new
                          > >>one is the easier job, meeting peak demand more difficult. I wonder if Tom can say
                          > >>something about the way PS Wave approach this, is peak current given significant treatment
                          > >>in the sales pitch?
                          > >>
                          > >>Ted
                          > >>
                          > >>On 1 Apr 2012 at 5:32, sunilm_k2 wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>> I have also noticed unbearable transformer hum when using a power
                          > >>> regenrator from a different brand. I switched to a conditioner with
                          > >>> much better results, although there too you have to experiment. I
                          > >>> like Audience, also favored by HP of TAS, I think. I have seen
                          > >>> several manufacturers recommend outting all your equipment on the
                          > >>> same circuit (but not your computer). Could the apparent drop in
                          > >>> bass be caused by higher output impedance of the regenrator?
                          > >>>
                          > >>> --S
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> ------------------------------------
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >






                        • Ted Rook
                          As I understand things, and, if understand the question correctly, the breakers on a power strip provide protection from overcurrent demand, (a current surge)
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 2, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            As I understand things, and, if understand the question correctly, the breakers on a power
                            strip provide protection from overcurrent demand, (a current surge) caused by a faulty load.
                            The term "surge" can be applied to current and to voltage and I'm not sure if you are asking
                            about the voltage situation also. Simply put, there is no overvoltage protection in a basic
                            power strip. It is also not common to encounter sustained excess voltage on a utility supply,
                            brief spikes are common, and caused by inductance in loads being switched, the fridge
                            motor, the well pump, but sustained high voltage is very rare unless one has used a bad
                            electrician...............Basic power strips do include circuit breaker protection against
                            overcurrent.

                            The common power strips with "surge protection" sold for home electronic power distribution
                            contain, or should contain, overvoltage devices that will respond very rapidly to overvoltage
                            and draw enough current to pop the current protection breaker. The overvoltage allowed may
                            be around 20% above nominal voltage, there has to be a gap to minimise nuisance tripping.

                            Does this help?




                            On 2 Apr 2012 at 11:44, Tom Mallin wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Anyone here know enough about how the usual method of providing
                            > surge protection through a power strip works to speculate whether
                            > such surge protection could limit the instantaneous power provided
                            > by the circuit under normal operating conditions, i.e., when there
                            > is
                            > no lightning or other cause of a voltage surge?
                            >
                            >
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