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Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Wisdom and Neumann monitors

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  • Fred
    Looking at the QUAD 306 circuit diagram I see no thermal limiter as you describe but there is a circuit breaker (0.5A 230-240V) between the mains switch and
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011

    Looking at the QUAD 306 circuit diagram I see no thermal limiter as you describe but there is a circuit breaker (0.5A 230-240V) between the mains switch and transformer primary.  Manually reset (red button at the mid-rear panel).
    I'm thankful that it has protected my amp very well (after several seconds) in the odd instance of gross enthusiasm!

    The 306 certainly suits/drives/tames my vintage JBL L50s well enough for marvellous music to be marvelled at :-)

    I've attached a crop of the Specifications page herewith.

    Regards,

    Fred.



    From: Robert <regonaudio@...>
    To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011, 6:05
    Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Wisdom and Neumann monitors

     

    I like the sound of the 303 too.
    I was really referring to the current dumper amps
    the 306 and 606 for example.
    Quad themselves give power estimates into
    various loads.
    Not much good below 4 ohms.
    This has I think to do with the power supply.

    Now the amps have a thermal limiter--no fuses
    but a device that shuts them off if the output
    devices get too hot. I think this means that
    they are able to put out far bursts for very
    short time intervals.

    But I would not want to drive say Apogees with them.

    Anyway, it is really just a fact that their output
    does not match their input all that well in literal
    terms though the musical meaning of this is arguable.

    REG

    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@...> wrote:
    >
    > Posted by: "Robert" regonaudio@... regtas43
    > Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:10 pm (PDT)
    >
    > "Well the Quad will not drive crazy impedances at all well--it is
    > not good into low impedance loads(as they say themselves)"
    >
    > Funny you should say this, the story of the daisy chained Quad amps reminded of a demo that has stayed with me for 35+ years where the salesman, in order to demonstrate the ability of the Quad 303 to drive low impedances, went to the speaker switch plate and switched all the speakers in the store on. All the speakers were in parallel, he assured me. The sound did not change in any fundamental way (including loudness) as he switched one after the other on. I went around and listened to enough to convince myself that they were, in fact, all on. I guess about 15 to 20 pairs were playing.
    >
    > He also told me of a customer who complained of not getting much volume out of his amp only to discover that speaker wire was lightly shorting both his pairs of speaker output terminals He was not hearing distortion, only low levels.
    >
    > I quite like the 303's sound, by the way.
    >
    > On another subject, I encourage all of you needing a quality small speaker for whatever reason to take the initiative to listen to a pair of the new Neumann KH120 near field monitors. At $1500 a pair they represent real value, in my books. They are powered by 50 RMS watts of class AB per driver (5.25" and 1" "waveguide" loaded dome per side) and to me are Harbeth equivalents, sonically, but without the cachet and associated price.
    >
    > George Massenburg apparently agrees: http://tinyurl.com/3rde3xj
    >
    > here's the factory blurb: http://tinyurl.com/3vqz2ly
    >



  • audiomayvin2000
    Hi Robert! I would like to mention that the Quad 303(even as you mentioned that the model you meant is the 306) must be checked for crossover distortion. Once
    Message 2 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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      Hi Robert!
      I would like to mention that the Quad 303(even as you mentioned that the model you meant is the 306) must be checked for crossover distortion. Once the bias is adjusted to eliminate(or minimise) the crossover distortion, the improvement in sound is dramatic. I've had clients who were not Audiophiles, rather they were 'simply' music lovers who would call me and ask what I did to improve the sound.
      For some reason, British amps of that era almost all have crossover distortion. Quad, Radford, Sugden, Spendor, etc. Take any Japanese amp(or receiver) Marantz, Pioneer, Sony, Sansui, Kenwood, etc., etc. and crossover distortion is just not there.
      All the best,
      Leon(The Audiomayvin, Montreal(514)739-5403)

      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Posted by: "Robert" regonaudio@... regtas43
      > Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:10 pm (PDT)
      >
      > "Well the Quad will not drive crazy impedances at all well--it is
      > not good into low impedance loads(as they say themselves)"
      >
      > Funny you should say this, the story of the daisy chained Quad amps reminded of a demo that has stayed with me for 35+ years where the salesman, in order to demonstrate the ability of the Quad 303 to drive low impedances, went to the speaker switch plate and switched all the speakers in the store on. All the speakers were in parallel, he assured me. The sound did not change in any fundamental way (including loudness) as he switched one after the other on. I went around and listened to enough to convince myself that they were, in fact, all on. I guess about 15 to 20 pairs were playing.
      >
      > He also told me of a customer who complained of not getting much volume out of his amp only to discover that speaker wire was lightly shorting both his pairs of speaker output terminals He was not hearing distortion, only low levels.
      >
      > I quite like the 303's sound, by the way.
    • Robert
      I have had rather little experience with the 303. I owned one briefly but sold it before I really listened to it(I was in effect helping out a friend who
      Message 3 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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        I have had rather little experience with the 303.
        I owned one briefly but sold it before I really
        listened to it(I was in effect helping out a friend
        who needed fast money by buying it instantly and then
        reselling it later --at the same price).
        But Paul Seydor has one that I have listened to a bit.
        That one surely does not show any sign of crossover
        distortion. Either it has been readjsuted or he has
        just been lucky in its being adjusted correctly as it stands.

        As to the 306, it does sound nice. A little bit wrong
        but nicely wrong as it were. What it does that is not
        literally accurate is almost always pleasing.
        After all, there has to be a reason that people
        (including me) bought it!

        The trouble with euphonic amplifiers (or anything else)
        for a reviewer is that one may say that things are too
        good. If a speaker has a nasty top with a more usual amplifier,
        it would be misleading to the readers to describe the speaker
        as it sounded with an amp that softened the top.

        This is why the Carver A Series amps are so good for reviewing:
        they are flat into anything because they have no output
        network.
        REG




        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "audiomayvin2000" <audiomayvin2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Robert!
        > I would like to mention that the Quad 303(even as you mentioned that the model you meant is the 306) must be checked for crossover distortion. Once the bias is adjusted to eliminate(or minimise) the crossover distortion, the improvement in sound is dramatic. I've had clients who were not Audiophiles, rather they were 'simply' music lovers who would call me and ask what I did to improve the sound.
        > For some reason, British amps of that era almost all have crossover distortion. Quad, Radford, Sugden, Spendor, etc. Take any Japanese amp(or receiver) Marantz, Pioneer, Sony, Sansui, Kenwood, etc., etc. and crossover distortion is just not there.
        > All the best,
        > Leon(The Audiomayvin, Montreal(514)739-5403)
        >
        > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Posted by: "Robert" regonaudio@ regtas43
        > > Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:10 pm (PDT)
        > >
        > > "Well the Quad will not drive crazy impedances at all well--it is
        > > not good into low impedance loads(as they say themselves)"
        > >
        > > Funny you should say this, the story of the daisy chained Quad amps reminded of a demo that has stayed with me for 35+ years where the salesman, in order to demonstrate the ability of the Quad 303 to drive low impedances, went to the speaker switch plate and switched all the speakers in the store on. All the speakers were in parallel, he assured me. The sound did not change in any fundamental way (including loudness) as he switched one after the other on. I went around and listened to enough to convince myself that they were, in fact, all on. I guess about 15 to 20 pairs were playing.
        > >
        > > He also told me of a customer who complained of not getting much volume out of his amp only to discover that speaker wire was lightly shorting both his pairs of speaker output terminals He was not hearing distortion, only low levels.
        > >
        > > I quite like the 303's sound, by the way.
        >
      • Edward
        Hi Russell The measurements for the KH120 look awfully impressive (although I may have missed any references to smoothing). Hard to believe that this was not
        Message 4 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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          Hi Russell

          The measurements for the KH120 look awfully impressive (although I may have missed any references to smoothing). Hard to believe that this was not dsp'd!

          Edward


          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > On another subject, I encourage all of you needing a quality small speaker for whatever reason to take the initiative to listen to a pair of the new Neumann KH120 near field monitors. At $1500 a pair they represent real value, in my books. They are powered by 50 RMS watts of class AB per driver (5.25" and 1" "waveguide" loaded dome per side) and to me are Harbeth equivalents, sonically, but without the cachet and associated price.
          >
          > George Massenburg apparently agrees: http://tinyurl.com/3rde3xj
          >
          > here's the factory blurb: http://tinyurl.com/3vqz2ly
          >
        • Edward
          The KH 120D with digital as well as analog inputs and a remote volume control after the DAC would seem to be a potent package . . . just add source. Apparently
          Message 5 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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            The KH 120D with digital as well as analog inputs and a remote volume control after the DAC would seem to be a potent package . . . just add source. Apparently not yet available and pricing TBA.






            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Russell
            >
            > The measurements for the KH120 look awfully impressive (although I may have missed any references to smoothing). Hard to believe that this was not dsp'd!
            >
            > Edward
            >
            >
            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > On another subject, I encourage all of you needing a quality small speaker for whatever reason to take the initiative to listen to a pair of the new Neumann KH120 near field monitors. At $1500 a pair they represent real value, in my books. They are powered by 50 RMS watts of class AB per driver (5.25" and 1" "waveguide" loaded dome per side) and to me are Harbeth equivalents, sonically, but without the cachet and associated price.
            > >
            > > George Massenburg apparently agrees: http://tinyurl.com/3rde3xj
            > >
            > > here's the factory blurb: http://tinyurl.com/3vqz2ly
            > >
            >
          • laurie483000
            I don t think my old Sugden class A all 12 watts of it, was capable of suffering from x-over distortion, even now after 40 years - not that I ve tried it out
            Message 6 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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              I don't think my old Sugden class A all 12 watts of it, was capable of suffering from x-over distortion, even now after 40 years - not that I've tried it out for a while.

              When I bought it both my father and I reckoned it sounded cleaner than the competition that was offered at the dealers in Manchester and seemed adequately powerful in a sizeable room through large B&W DM3s and KEF Concertos. The Quad 303 was a luxury item then, rather outside my price range, although the Rogers Ravensbourne was I believe a more affordable integrated 'version' offering less power. I don't remember this being one of the competing amps at my audition, though the well reviewed Cambridge amp was - but we must have thought the Sugden sounded better.


              Laurie



              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "audiomayvin2000" <audiomayvin2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Robert!
              > I would like to mention that the Quad 303(even as you mentioned that the model you meant is the 306) must be checked for crossover distortion. Once the bias is adjusted to eliminate(or minimise) the crossover distortion, the improvement in sound is dramatic. I've had clients who were not Audiophiles, rather they were 'simply' music lovers who would call me and ask what I did to improve the sound.
              > For some reason, British amps of that era almost all have crossover distortion. Quad, Radford, Sugden, Spendor, etc. Take any Japanese amp(or receiver) Marantz, Pioneer, Sony, Sansui, Kenwood, etc., etc. and crossover distortion is just not there.
            • Ted Rook
              Yes that is an attractive item, and it is good to see that Neuman is actively supporting their new acquisition of Klein and Hummel. Russ has already spoken
              Message 7 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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                Yes that is an attractive item, and it is good to see that Neuman is actively supporting their
                new acquisition of Klein and Hummel. Russ has already spoken highly from personal
                experience of their larger professional monitor the O300 if I recall correctly.

                I have a soft spot for K+H, at one time I restored a batch of K+H 1960's vintage tube
                equaliser units.

                Ted


                On 27 Oct 2011 at 21:20, Edward wrote:

                > The KH 120D with digital as well as analog inputs and a remote volume control after the DAC would seem to be a potent package . . . just add source. Apparently not yet available and pricing TBA.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Russell
                > >
                > > The measurements for the KH120 look awfully impressive (although I may have missed any references to smoothing). Hard to believe that this was not dsp'd!
                > >
                > > Edward
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On another subject, I encourage all of you needing a quality small speaker for whatever reason to take the initiative to listen to a pair of the new Neumann KH120 near field monitors. At $1500 a pair they represent real value, in my books. They are powered by 50 RMS watts of class AB per driver (5.25" and 1" "waveguide" loaded dome per side) and to me are Harbeth equivalents, sonically, but without the cachet and associated price.
                > > >
                > > > George Massenburg apparently agrees: http://tinyurl.com/3rde3xj
                > > >
                > > > here's the factory blurb: http://tinyurl.com/3vqz2ly
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Robert
                It is impressive indeed. However, one has to approach waveguided speakers with some caution in terms of relating the overall sound to the on axis. I take Rds
                Message 8 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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                  It is impressive indeed.
                  However, one has to approach waveguided speakers
                  with some caution in terms of relating the
                  overall sound to the on axis. I take Rds remarks
                  seriously of course, but in general
                  waveguided speakers often sound waveguided in some sense.
                  One hears the deliberately narrowed radiation pattern.
                  And if this happens, there is no fixing it
                  by DSP correction (nor analogue EQ).
                  One is just stuck with it. And once
                  one starts to hear it if one does, one gets
                  more and more disturbed by it, in my experience.

                  For this reason, I am really personally not
                  much interested in the KEF Uni-Q and its lineal
                  descendents.

                  Strangely enough, this does not always happen.
                  And vertical control is much less annoying than horizontal
                  control. Get in the right spot vertically and the
                  effect is gone. But one is stuck with the horizontal
                  effect(Toole and his friends were not all that wrong!)

                  REG


                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Russell
                  >
                  > The measurements for the KH120 look awfully impressive (although I may have missed any references to smoothing). Hard to believe that this was not dsp'd!
                  >
                  > Edward
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On another subject, I encourage all of you needing a quality small speaker for whatever reason to take the initiative to listen to a pair of the new Neumann KH120 near field monitors. At $1500 a pair they represent real value, in my books. They are powered by 50 RMS watts of class AB per driver (5.25" and 1" "waveguide" loaded dome per side) and to me are Harbeth equivalents, sonically, but without the cachet and associated price.
                  > >
                  > > George Massenburg apparently agrees: http://tinyurl.com/3rde3xj
                  > >
                  > > here's the factory blurb: http://tinyurl.com/3vqz2ly
                  > >
                  >
                • Robert
                  Right of course: Class A has no crossover distortion. The idea of the current dumpers was that the actual sound would be determined by the small Class A amp
                  Message 9 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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                    Right of course: Class A has no crossover distortion.
                    The idea of the current dumpers was that the actual
                    sound would be determined by the small Class A
                    amp that trimmed the sound to match the input.
                    Great idea. But the execution was very limited
                    by contemporary standards.
                    Someone could make a really good amp by making
                    an uncompromised version of the circuit. Good
                    and cheap,too

                    REG

                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't think my old Sugden class A all 12 watts of it, was capable of suffering from x-over distortion, even now after 40 years - not that I've tried it out for a while.
                    >
                    > When I bought it both my father and I reckoned it sounded cleaner than the competition that was offered at the dealers in Manchester and seemed adequately powerful in a sizeable room through large B&W DM3s and KEF Concertos. The Quad 303 was a luxury item then, rather outside my price range, although the Rogers Ravensbourne was I believe a more affordable integrated 'version' offering less power. I don't remember this being one of the competing amps at my audition, though the well reviewed Cambridge amp was - but we must have thought the Sugden sounded better.
                    >
                    >
                    > Laurie
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "audiomayvin2000" <audiomayvin2000@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Robert!
                    > > I would like to mention that the Quad 303(even as you mentioned that the model you meant is the 306) must be checked for crossover distortion. Once the bias is adjusted to eliminate(or minimise) the crossover distortion, the improvement in sound is dramatic. I've had clients who were not Audiophiles, rather they were 'simply' music lovers who would call me and ask what I did to improve the sound.
                    > > For some reason, British amps of that era almost all have crossover distortion. Quad, Radford, Sugden, Spendor, etc. Take any Japanese amp(or receiver) Marantz, Pioneer, Sony, Sansui, Kenwood, etc., etc. and crossover distortion is just not there.
                    >
                  • Robert
                    It does look good in on axis response. But such things can be obtained without DSP. Look for example at this
                    Message 10 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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                      It does look good in on axis response.
                      But such things can be obtained without DSP.
                      Look for example at this
                      http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/jmlab_miniutopia/
                      or this
                      http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/revel_performa_m20/

                      But of course there is more to speaker sound than flat
                      on axis or one could just EQ up anything!

                      REG

                      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The KH 120D with digital as well as analog inputs and a remote volume control after the DAC would seem to be a potent package . . . just add source. Apparently not yet available and pricing TBA.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Russell
                      > >
                      > > The measurements for the KH120 look awfully impressive (although I may have missed any references to smoothing). Hard to believe that this was not dsp'd!
                      > >
                      > > Edward
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Russell Dawkins <rdawkins@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > On another subject, I encourage all of you needing a quality small speaker for whatever reason to take the initiative to listen to a pair of the new Neumann KH120 near field monitors. At $1500 a pair they represent real value, in my books. They are powered by 50 RMS watts of class AB per driver (5.25" and 1" "waveguide" loaded dome per side) and to me are Harbeth equivalents, sonically, but without the cachet and associated price.
                      > > >
                      > > > George Massenburg apparently agrees: http://tinyurl.com/3rde3xj
                      > > >
                      > > > here's the factory blurb: http://tinyurl.com/3vqz2ly
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Edward
                      Hi Robert I find the directivity plots provided at the Neumann link hard to make out, but how do they look to you? (It IS a small baffle speaker....) Here s
                      Message 11 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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                        Hi Robert

                        I find the directivity plots provided at the Neumann link hard to make out, but how do they look to you? (It IS a small baffle speaker....)

                        Here's the measurement link again:

                        http://tinyurl.com/5tlw2b2

                        Thanks
                        Edward


                        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regonaudio@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > It does look good in on axis response.
                        > But such things can be obtained without DSP.
                        > Look for example at this
                        > http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/jmlab_miniutopia/
                        > or this
                        > http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/revel_performa_m20/
                        >
                        > But of course there is more to speaker sound than flat
                        > on axis or one could just EQ up anything!
                        >
                        > REG
                        >
                      • audiomayvin2000
                        Hi Laurie! Robert is right, of course. A Class A amp has no crossover distortion. But Sugden s non-Class A amps-crossover distortion aplenty. And with an
                        Message 12 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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                          Hi Laurie!
                          Robert is right, of course. A Class A amp has no crossover distortion. But Sugden's non-Class A amps-crossover distortion aplenty. And with an adjustment of the bias-all gone. As I said, I don't know why the British amps have this issue(of bias drift?).
                          All the best,
                          Leon(The Audiomayvin, Montreal(514)739-5403)

                          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regonaudio@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Right of course: Class A has no crossover distortion.
                          > The idea of the current dumpers was that the actual
                          > sound would be determined by the small Class A
                          > amp that trimmed the sound to match the input.
                          > Great idea. But the execution was very limited
                          > by contemporary standards.
                          > Someone could make a really good amp by making
                          > an uncompromised version of the circuit. Good
                          > and cheap,too
                          >
                          > REG
                          >
                          > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "laurie483000" <laurie483000@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I don't think my old Sugden class A all 12 watts of it, was capable of suffering from x-over distortion, even now after 40 years - not that I've tried it out for a while.
                          > >
                          > > When I bought it both my father and I reckoned it sounded cleaner than the competition that was offered at the dealers in Manchester and seemed adequately powerful in a sizeable room through large B&W DM3s and KEF Concertos. The Quad 303 was a luxury item then, rather outside my price range, although the Rogers Ravensbourne was I believe a more affordable integrated 'version' offering less power. I don't remember this being one of the competing amps at my audition, though the well reviewed Cambridge amp was - but we must have thought the Sugden sounded better.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Laurie
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "audiomayvin2000" <audiomayvin2000@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Robert!
                          > > > I would like to mention that the Quad 303(even as you mentioned that the model you meant is the 306) must be checked for crossover distortion. Once the bias is adjusted to eliminate(or minimise) the crossover distortion, the improvement in sound is dramatic. I've had clients who were not Audiophiles, rather they were 'simply' music lovers who would call me and ask what I did to improve the sound.
                          > > > For some reason, British amps of that era almost all have crossover distortion. Quad, Radford, Sugden, Spendor, etc. Take any Japanese amp(or receiver) Marantz, Pioneer, Sony, Sansui, Kenwood, etc., etc. and crossover distortion is just not there.
                          > >
                          >
                        • Robert
                          The vertical one is messy, but that is hard to avoid with a two way. The horizontal one seems somewhat odd in that once the narrowing starts(the speaker is
                          Message 13 of 16 , Oct 27, 2011
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                            The vertical one is messy, but that is hard to avoid with a two way.
                            The horizontal one seems somewhat odd in that once the narrowing starts(the speaker is omni in the bass , as one expects),
                            that it steadily narrows down until around 2k, and then from around 2k to 7k, it is quite uniform in directioal character , this
                            corresponding presumably to the waveguided tweeter's lower range.
                            It is a bit hard to read, all right. You might find it instructive to compare to the O410. This looks better to me, having less of a
                            curvature of the lines, I do not think that narrowing down and
                            then becoming constat around 1k in the two way looks too promising for low coloration. But this type of plot, while popular in the Eurpoean pro world, is not so easily interpreted to my eyes as the NRC plots of off axis responses. In principle the same information is presented, but it is hard to make it out.

                            But my guess looking at that complete change in the nature of things at 1k from incrasingly directional behavior to constant directional behavior is likely to sound like a waveguided tweeter.

                            Note however that this is a nearfield monitor, What counts
                            most for that is flat on axis and near the axis and that seems to have been done.

                            My experience has been that it is really hard to make a waveguided speaker that does not sound waveguided. It can be done(the Helsinki
                            for example does not sound waveguided to me). But most of the European waveguided pro speakers I have heard--and I have heard a few--have that waveguided sound. People vary in their reaction to that. I do not care for it myself.

                            Of course one is damned if one does and damned if one doesn't: If
                            there is not control over radiation pattern one is like to get tweeter flare problems but if there is some then one is likely to get waveguided sound. But if you look at this
                            http://www.stereophile.com/content/acoustic-research-ar-303-loudspeaker-measurements
                            figure 3
                            or this
                            http://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-cremona-elipsa-loudspeaker-measurements
                            figure 6
                            you can see that it is possible to get things to be really uniform
                            across the midrange and presence range. And no one cares(no one sensible) if the top end nosedives off axis in the top octave

                            To my ears, this is what makes speakers sound like music the most--that there is a really uniform situation from around 300 Hz(below that the total inroom response dominates and directionality is largely irrelevant) on up through the presence range, up to around 6k or thereabouts.

                            This is why wide baffle speakers sound so good and RFZ in the wall rooms sound even better--because the directional pattern does not change over the crucial range(in the wall is like a really huge baffle!)

                            Obviously people differ in their reaction to these things.
                            After all, people are buying mini speakers and narrow front floor standers right and left.

                            But in some fundamental way, the wide fronts sound better. For all its slightly truncated top and what have you, the AR 303A
                            just sounds more like actual music instruments(when one EQs out a few on axis glitches especially) than do the narrow front floorstanders,
                            almost any of them.

                            Wide baffle rules. I do not really think that without it , one
                            can really do this right. Waveguiding the tweeter will not help the basic problem. In fact, it may make it worse because the waveguide itself has a sound generally.

                            Of course, circumstances alter cases. The PSB T6 managed
                            to do well with a narrow front because of the multiple woofers
                            (I think that is rhe reason anyway)
                            http://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-image-t6-loudspeaker-measurements
                            figure 6 but that does not tell the whole story because it does not tell the story on teh directivity in the vertical direction.
                            Here you can see how the intoom response of the similarly configured Synchroy 1 has a really flat in room response
                            http://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-synchrony-one-loudspeaker-measurements
                            There is no droop in the presence range and the bass
                            holds up with no energy hole in the 100 to 300 Hz region.
                            This is something that just works.

                            I do not want to be dogmatic(who me dogmatic?)
                            but I do not think small speakers can be made to work
                            right unless they go up against the wall by design.
                            There is just not enough scope for controlling the directivity--
                            to control directivity in the sbu 1k frqeuencies, one needs
                            some surface area. At 500 Hz the waves are 2 feet and a little long.
                            A little box is just not doing it for them.

                            Big baffle or up against(or in) the wall or the floor(for woofers) or several drivers(a la PSB)--those are what works,
                            or dipole(that is another story) or some combination, as in the Gradient 1,3.

                            Oversimplified of course--but essentially right I think.

                            REG

                            PS I think most speaker designers in private would agree that the narrow front thing is an unfortunate fashion. They are stuck with it for commercial reasons but that does not make it good.

                            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Robert
                            >
                            > I find the directivity plots provided at the Neumann link hard to make out, but how do they look to you? (It IS a small baffle speaker....)
                            >
                            > Here's the measurement link again:
                            >
                            > http://tinyurl.com/5tlw2b2
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > Edward
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regonaudio@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > It does look good in on axis response.
                            > > But such things can be obtained without DSP.
                            > > Look for example at this
                            > > http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/jmlab_miniutopia/
                            > > or this
                            > > http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/revel_performa_m20/
                            > >
                            > > But of course there is more to speaker sound than flat
                            > > on axis or one could just EQ up anything!
                            > >
                            > > REG
                            > >
                            >
                          • Edward
                            Hi Robert Thanks, lots to chew on in your post about the polar plot of the Neumann KH 120. Interesting to compare the off-axis measurements of the Gradient
                            Message 14 of 16 , Oct 28, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Robert

                              Thanks, lots to chew on in your post about the polar plot of the Neumann KH 120.

                              Interesting to compare the off-axis measurements of the Gradient Revolution--a speaker with the equivalent of a tweeter waveguide (the co-axial mid-tweeter) and a relatively narrow baffle for the headunit. If I am interpreting this correctly, the off-axis response slopes down at frequencies lower than you would consider ideal.

                              http://tinyurl.com/3w7k7qx

                              Edward

                              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regonaudio@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> To my ears, this is what makes speakers sound like music the most--that there is a really uniform situation from around 300 Hz(below that the total inroom response dominates and directionality is largely irrelevant) on up through the presence range, up to around 6k or thereabouts.
                              >
                              > This is why wide baffle speakers sound so good and RFZ in the wall rooms sound even better--because the directional pattern does not change over the crucial range(in the wall is like a really huge baffle!)
                              >
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