Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

music criticism

Expand Messages
  • Robert
    I wanted to add one thing. The criticism of people playing is a bit different from that of conducting. Performing musicians have physical limitations. And
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 11, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      I wanted to add one thing.
      The criticism of people playing is a
      bit different from that of conducting.
      Performing musicians have physical limitations.
      And these can be observed and commented on,
      or the relative absence of them.
      These fall in the category of facts.

      But conducting "criticism" tends to
      fall in the category not of what the conductor
      could do in fact but of how he or she decided
      to do something.

      So in this corner we have Bernstein deciding to
      take a certain tempo and in the opposite corner
      we have Joe Schmoo disputing the decision and
      claiming that it is "wrong".

      There is a big difference between observing that
      someone does not shoot free thrwos relaibly and
      claiming that the coach should have taken
      a time out at some point. The former is factual information
      about technical ablities. The latter is
      disputing someone's judgment.

      We can all look and see whether the free throw was
      missed. This is an entirely different thing
      from the coaching decision.

      Similarly, one can observe that some things did
      not work out technically in someone's playing
      But this is entirely different from disputing
      a conductors judgment. No one thinks Bernstein
      could not have conducted faster or slower!

      REG
    • ken_holder@lavabit.com
      ... I agree. Although I have heard a few concerts where the conductor was just simply incompetent. I recall one of the great concert-going disappointments of
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 11, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        > Similarly, one can observe that some things did
        > not work out technically in someone's playing
        > But this is entirely different from disputing
        > a conductors judgment. No one thinks Bernstein
        > could not have conducted faster or slower!

        I agree. Although I have heard a few concerts
        where the conductor was just simply incompetent.
        I recall one of the great concert-going
        disappointments of my life back when I lived
        in Portland and had season tickets to the
        Oregon Symphony.

        All season I'd been looking forward to the
        concert where they were going to play
        Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances. When the
        great day arrived, the guest conductor
        was taken ill and the Symphony's pops
        conductor led the concert. I was astonishingly
        bad -- the balance would change from measure
        to measure based on no reason at all. The
        musicians frequently sounded like they
        weren't sure how fast he wanted 'em to
        play, and did their best to stay together
        with mixed success. I suspect the orchestra
        would have done a better job with NO conductor.

        It's the only time I've heard one of my favorite
        works live, and I should have stayed home.

        It's not that I disliked his performance
        judgments and decisions, it's that he did
        not HAVE any. That was 25 or 30 years ago or so
        and I'm still upset about it. Ah well.

        Ken Holder
        Just a Poor, Old, Simple, Country-Living Music-Lover
      • Robert
        I agree of course--if the conductor is incompetent then things change. But of course this kind of thing does not generally arise in recording criticism Along
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 11, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I agree of course--if the conductor is incompetent
          then things change. But of course this kind
          of thing does not generally arise in recording criticism

          Along the lines of musical disasters, I recall a performance of the Schumann piano quintet (in which I was playing!) in high school led from the piano by our high school (nominal) teacher. She knew the tempo the first movement should have but she could not
          play the more complex passages at that tempo.
          So we would alternate widly between the real tempo
          when all complexities lay in the string parts(we could
          all play the piece as it should be)
          and whatever tempo she could manage when the piano
          going got tough, times at which we woud slow
          to something like half speed.

          Fortunately my real teachers--my parents and my uncle and later my college professors of music-- lived in a different world from
          this and taught me music as music should be!

          So I draw a veil over this high school experience and of course
          name no names. And no doubt our high school teacher was doing as well as she could.
          But surely in my nightmares I hear that performance, even though it is overlaid by memories of real performances, with my father at the piano in particular.

          REG
          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, ken_holder@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > > Similarly, one can observe that some things did
          > > not work out technically in someone's playing
          > > But this is entirely different from disputing
          > > a conductors judgment. No one thinks Bernstein
          > > could not have conducted faster or slower!
          >
          > I agree. Although I have heard a few concerts
          > where the conductor was just simply incompetent.
          > I recall one of the great concert-going
          > disappointments of my life back when I lived
          > in Portland and had season tickets to the
          > Oregon Symphony.
          >
          > All season I'd been looking forward to the
          > concert where they were going to play
          > Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances. When the
          > great day arrived, the guest conductor
          > was taken ill and the Symphony's pops
          > conductor led the concert. I was astonishingly
          > bad -- the balance would change from measure
          > to measure based on no reason at all. The
          > musicians frequently sounded like they
          > weren't sure how fast he wanted 'em to
          > play, and did their best to stay together
          > with mixed success. I suspect the orchestra
          > would have done a better job with NO conductor.
          >
          > It's the only time I've heard one of my favorite
          > works live, and I should have stayed home.
          >
          > It's not that I disliked his performance
          > judgments and decisions, it's that he did
          > not HAVE any. That was 25 or 30 years ago or so
          > and I'm still upset about it. Ah well.
          >
          > Ken Holder
          > Just a Poor, Old, Simple, Country-Living Music-Lover
          >
        • Fred
          I ve never known a time when music has been so widely available and comparable. I can choose what I like and whether and why it is a particularly good or bad
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 11, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I've never known a time when music has been so widely available and comparable.
            I can choose what I like and whether and why it is a particularly good or bad choice becomes a matter of added interest.

            But the music "spoke" first.

            Fred.


            --- On Thu, 11/8/11, Robert <regonaudio@...> wrote:

            From: Robert <regonaudio@...>
            Subject: [regsaudioforum] music criticism
            To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 21:21

            I wanted to add one thing.

            The criticism of people playing is a

            bit different from that of conducting.

            Performing musicians have physical limitations.

            And these can be observed and commented on,

            or the relative absence of them.

            These fall in the category of facts.



            But conducting "criticism" tends to

            fall in the category not of what the conductor

            could do in fact but of how he or she decided

            to do something.



            So in this corner we have Bernstein deciding to

            take a certain tempo and in the opposite corner

            we have Joe Schmoo disputing the decision and

            claiming that it is "wrong".



            There is a big difference between observing that

            someone does not shoot free thrwos relaibly and

            claiming that the coach should have taken

            a time out at some point. The former is factual information

            about technical ablities. The latter is

            disputing someone's judgment.



            We can all look and see whether the free throw was

            missed. This is an entirely different thing

            from the coaching decision.



            Similarly, one can observe that some things did

            not work out technically in someone's playing

            But this is entirely different from disputing

            a conductors judgment. No one thinks Bernstein

            could not have conducted faster or slower!

            REG
          • HM
            In such a case take your iPhone and select your favourite interpretation of the same work, plug in yout headphones and listen to the best performance recorded
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 11, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              In such a case take your iPhone and select your favourite interpretation of the same work, plug in yout headphones and listen to the best performance recorded with the real orchestra and concert hall atmosphere present.
              Dont worry, be modern..
              Some years ago there was a Frankfurt HighEnd show with the usual exhibitors party at the civic hall of Offenbach at saturday night. The buffet was below expectations, so Dieter Burmester took his mobile phone and ordered a number of pizzas from a local pizza bring service for his team. When the pizzas were brought the people at the surrounding tables got aware and applauded. This was a resounding slap to the face of the organisation team and there was no such party the years after.

              We can listen to the best conductors in the world at our homes - what exspectations are we allowed to bring into a certain live performance?
              BR HM

              >
              >
              > > Similarly, one can observe that some things did
              > > not work out technically in someone's playing
              > > But this is entirely different from disputing
              > > a conductors judgment. No one thinks Bernstein
              > > could not have conducted faster or slower!
              >
              > I agree. Although I have heard a few concerts
              > where the conductor was just simply incompetent.
              > I recall one of the great concert-going
              > disappointments of my life back when I lived
              > in Portland and had season tickets to the
              > Oregon Symphony.
              >
              > All season I'd been looking forward to the
              > concert where they were going to play
              > Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances. When the
              > great day arrived, the guest conductor
              > was taken ill and the Symphony's pops
              > conductor led the concert. I was astonishingly
              > bad -- the balance would change from measure
              > to measure based on no reason at all. The
              > musicians frequently sounded like they
              > weren't sure how fast he wanted 'em to
              > play, and did their best to stay together
              > with mixed success. I suspect the orchestra
              > would have done a better job with NO conductor.
              >
              > It's the only time I've heard one of my favorite
              > works live, and I should have stayed home.
              >
              > It's not that I disliked his performance
              > judgments and decisions, it's that he did
              > not HAVE any. That was 25 or 30 years ago or so
              > and I'm still upset about it. Ah well.
              >
              > Ken Holder
              > Just a Poor, Old, Simple, Country-Living Music-Lover
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.