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Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: live levels at home

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  • David Ethève
    Thank you for the kind words Robert, I wish I could be a bit more active... As for dynamic, I think that yes, in the hall, symphonic music is not that loud,
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 7, 2011
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      Thank you for the kind words Robert, I wish I could be a bit more active...

      As for dynamic, I think that yes, in the hall, symphonic music is not that loud, but if the hall is good, or very good, you are just surounded by sound, wich of course doesn't happened in stereo. it is probably in search of that effect that audiophile tend to listen too loud, in a vain atempt to bring the room sound into teh picture, (wich will never work, it is not the same type of space!) Actually in a good hall the sound is not even so loud on stage either, just beautifull. And in Musikverein just magical, truly magical.

      --- El jue, 7/4/11, Robert <regonaudio@...> escribió:

      De: Robert <regonaudio@...>
      Asunto: [regsaudioforum] Re: live levels at home
      Para: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      Fecha: jueves, 7 de abril, 2011 16:46

       


      David E does not write often, but when he does, it is
      always worthwhile to pay attention!

      This time is like that ,too,

      Well said!

      REG

      PS I have derived the impression that a surprising number
      of speakers actually sound very much like music if one
      pulls the 5k up treble down to where it belongs and flattens
      out the 500Hz-5000kHz region very carefully--flattening out
      meaning making pink noise sound right. It is scary how good
      things then sound--scary if you have spent a lot of money
      on speakers!

      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, David Ethève <david_etheve@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sometimes I have the feeling that "audiophiles" are acting as if trying to recreate a lost language, as if their comprehension of what is suposed to be reproduced was lost a long time ago: this explain why some absolutly unimportant details are magnified to an extreme and important matters are not really considered. I remember once in a shop, a guy wanted to listen to speaker A, the salesman thought this precise model was conected and started the demonstration. After some 20 seconds the custumers said with disdain that there was no highs, salesman looked surprised saying that this particular madel was reknown for the quality of its highs and they would have started a small fight for a third person saying that he had actually changed the speakers! Embarassement of salesman, new conection and then happy face of audiophile: now one could hear, loud and clear, a very unpleasant hiss, the tweeter was probably some few dB hot. I could not beleive that this
      > kind of "improvement" would be considered as vital for anybody; there is no musical information at this level, perhaps for bats or dogs...
      > David
      >
      > --- El lun, 4/4/11, Robert <regonaudio@...> escribió:
      >
      > De: Robert <regonaudio@...>
      > Asunto: [regsaudioforum] live levels at home
      > Para: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      > Fecha: lunes, 4 de abril, 2011 20:24
      >
      >
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      >  
      >
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      >
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      >
      >
      >
      > The previous message was not to suggest that
      >
      > audio is a done deal. Rather, my point is that
      >
      > I think audiophiles worry about the wrong issues.
      >
      > They ought to worry about
      >
      > 1 EQ, exact tonal balance
      >
      > 2 which recordings they are playing (and why recordings
      >
      > are not better and which ones are better)
      >
      >
      >
      > instead of keeping telling themselves that music
      >
      > at home is not right dynamically--when it demonstrably IS
      >
      > right dynamically, or at least can be.
      >
      >
      >
      > They also ought to stop worrying all the time about "presence" and
      >
      > "sounding real". Music actually does not sound real in the sense
      >
      > they mean when one hears it from the audience.
      >
      > Not at all.
      >
      >
      >
      > The Simax vocal recording mentioned(PS1011, Ellen Westberg Andersen sings Grieg) sounds real! It does not sound "real" in the audiophile in your face sense. Comes to that, why would anyone care if it did?
      >
      > That kind of sounding real is just a stunt, viewed in musical terms.
      >
      >
      >
      > REG
      >

    • ymm
      David, you hit the nail on the head in that remark. But then some concert-goers like to sit in the first three rows. mm ________________________________ From:
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 7, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        David, you hit the nail on the head in that remark. But then some concert-goers like to sit in the first three rows.

        mm


        From: David Ethève <david_etheve@...>
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, 8 April 2011 06:32:37
        Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: live levels at home

         

        Thank you for the kind words Robert, I wish I could be a bit more active...

        As for dynamic, I think that yes, in the hall, symphonic music is not that loud, but if the hall is good, or very good, you are just surounded by sound, wich of course doesn't happened in stereo. it is probably in search of that effect that audiophile tend to listen too loud, in a vain atempt to bring the room sound into teh picture, (wich will never work, it is not the same type of space!) Actually in a good hall the sound is not even so loud on stage either, just beautifull. And in Musikverein just magical, truly magical.

        --- El jue, 7/4/11, Robert <regonaudio@...> escribió:

        De: Robert <regonaudio@...>
        Asunto: [regsaudioforum] Re: live levels at home
        Para: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        Fecha: jueves, 7 de abril, 2011 16:46

         


        David E does not write often, but when he does, it is
        always worthwhile to pay attention!

        This time is like that ,too,

        Well said!

        REG

        PS I have derived the impression that a surprising number
        of speakers actually sound very much like music if one
        pulls the 5k up treble down to where it belongs and flattens
        out the 500Hz-5000kHz region very carefully--flattening out
        meaning making pink noise sound right. It is scary how good
        things then sound--scary if you have spent a lot of money
        on speakers!

        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, David Ethève <david_etheve@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sometimes I have the feeling that "audiophiles" are acting as if trying to recreate a lost language, as if their comprehension of what is suposed to be reproduced was lost a long time ago: this explain why some absolutly unimportant details are magnified to an extreme and important matters are not really considered. I remember once in a shop, a guy wanted to listen to speaker A, the salesman thought this precise model was conected and started the demonstration. After some 20 seconds the custumers said with disdain that there was no highs, salesman looked surprised saying that this particular madel was reknown for the quality of its highs and they would have started a small fight for a third person saying that he had actually changed the speakers! Embarassement of salesman, new conection and then happy face of audiophile: now one could hear, loud and clear, a very unpleasant hiss, the tweeter was probably some few dB hot. I could not beleive that this
        > kind of "improvement" would be considered as vital for anybody; there is no musical information at this level, perhaps for bats or dogs...
        > David
        >
        > --- El lun, 4/4/11, Robert <regonaudio@...> escribió:
        >
        > De: Robert <regonaudio@...>
        > Asunto: [regsaudioforum] live levels at home
        > Para: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > Fecha: lunes, 4 de abril, 2011 20:24
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The previous message was not to suggest that
        >
        > audio is a done deal. Rather, my point is that
        >
        > I think audiophiles worry about the wrong issues.
        >
        > They ought to worry about
        >
        > 1 EQ, exact tonal balance
        >
        > 2 which recordings they are playing (and why recordings
        >
        > are not better and which ones are better)
        >
        >
        >
        > instead of keeping telling themselves that music
        >
        > at home is not right dynamically--when it demonstrably IS
        >
        > right dynamically, or at least can be.
        >
        >
        >
        > They also ought to stop worrying all the time about "presence" and
        >
        > "sounding real". Music actually does not sound real in the sense
        >
        > they mean when one hears it from the audience.
        >
        > Not at all.
        >
        >
        >
        > The Simax vocal recording mentioned(PS1011, Ellen Westberg Andersen sings Grieg) sounds real! It does not sound "real" in the audiophile in your face sense. Comes to that, why would anyone care if it did?
        >
        > That kind of sounding real is just a stunt, viewed in musical terms.
        >
        >
        >
        > REG
        >

      • Robert
        Levels like 115 dB are a definite health hazard. Anything resembling prolonged exposure to such levels causes permanent hearing loss. Anyway, it is flat out
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 8, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Levels like 115 dB are a definite health hazard. Anything
          resembling prolonged exposure to such levels causes permanent
          hearing loss.
          Anyway, it is flat out unpleasant as far as I am concerned.

          A level of 92 dB in a quiet environment where you are actually
          listening is plenty to give the impression of dynamic punch,
          and variations of loudness. It is after all variation of loudness
          not constant high level that makes for excitement and expression in anything but really simple -minded music.

          I do agree with David that being surrounded is an improvement.
          There is benefit to be had out of adding on a couple of rear channels and just sending them Hafler-style surround derived from the front channels , with the back channels being played not too loudly.
          (It is good to time delay them a bit, too, if you can work that out).

          I have this set up available, though I do not use it too often because I am usually reviewing some stereo speaker or another.
          But it really is worthwhile. The increase in feeling like the real experience is considerable, if you do this well, even though it is not purist as it were.

          REG



          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Jose Antonio Almagro Pastor <jalmagro@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't think 92 dB Peak is loud, anyway it depends on frequency and
          > time weighting. In this video you can watch that LAeq is under 90 dBA and
          > and LCpeak (LCpico in Spanish) is 115,6 dB!
          >
          > 2011/4/7 ymm <yipmangmeng@...>
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > But they still do not sound like one another in a domestic room even when
          > > placed at the same spots!
          > >
          > > Yp
          > >
          > > ------------------------------
          > > *From:* Robert <regonaudio@...>
          > > *To:* regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          > > *Sent:* Thursday, 7 April 2011 22:46:44
          > > *Subject:* [regsaudioforum] Re: live levels at home
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > David E does not write often, but when he does, it is
          > > always worthwhile to pay attention!
          > >
          > > This time is like that ,too,
          > >
          > > Well said!
          > >
          > > REG
          > >
          > > PS I have derived the impression that a surprising number
          > > of speakers actually sound very much like music if one
          > > pulls the 5k up treble down to where it belongs and flattens
          > > out the 500Hz-5000kHz region very carefully--flattening out
          > > meaning making pink noise sound right. It is scary how good
          > > things then sound--scary if you have spent a lot of money
          > > on speakers!
          > >
          > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, David Ethève <david_etheve@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Sometimes I have the feeling that "audiophiles" are acting as if trying
          > > to recreate a lost language, as if their comprehension of what is suposed to
          > > be reproduced was lost a long time ago: this explain why some absolutly
          > > unimportant details are magnified to an extreme and important matters are
          > > not really considered. I remember once in a shop, a guy wanted to listen to
          > > speaker A, the salesman thought this precise model was conected and started
          > > the demonstration. After some 20 seconds the custumers said with disdain
          > > that there was no highs, salesman looked surprised saying that this
          > > particular madel was reknown for the quality of its highs and they would
          > > have started a small fight for a third person saying that he had actually
          > > changed the speakers! Embarassement of salesman, new conection and then
          > > happy face of audiophile: now one could hear, loud and clear, a very
          > > unpleasant hiss, the tweeter was probably some few dB hot. I could not
          > > beleive that this
          > >
          > > > kind of "improvement" would be considered as vital for anybody; there is
          > > no musical information at this level, perhaps for bats or dogs...
          > > > David
          > > >
          > > > --- El lun, 4/4/11, Robert <regonaudio@> escribió:
          > > >
          > > > De: Robert <regonaudio@>
          > >
          > > > Asunto: [regsaudioforum] live levels at home
          > > > Para: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Fecha: lunes, 4 de abril, 2011 20:24
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Â
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > The previous message was not to suggest that
          > > >
          > > > audio is a done deal. Rather, my point is that
          > > >
          > > > I think audiophiles worry about the wrong issues.
          > > >
          > > > They ought to worry about
          > > >
          > > > 1 EQ, exact tonal balance
          > > >
          > > > 2 which recordings they are playing (and why recordings
          > > >
          > > > are not better and which ones are better)
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > instead of keeping telling themselves that music
          > > >
          > > > at home is not right dynamically--when it demonstrably IS
          > > >
          > > > right dynamically, or at least can be.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > They also ought to stop worrying all the time about "presence" and
          > > >
          > > > "sounding real". Music actually does not sound real in the sense
          > > >
          > > > they mean when one hears it from the audience.
          > > >
          > > > Not at all.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > The Simax vocal recording mentioned(PS1011, Ellen Westberg Andersen sings
          > > Grieg) sounds real! It does not sound "real" in the audiophile in your face
          > > sense. Comes to that, why would anyone care if it did?
          > > >
          > > > That kind of sounding real is just a stunt, viewed in musical terms.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > REG
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
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