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Going one's own way

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  • Robert
    I think there is much wisdom in both Mitch and John s remarks on audiophilia. But I retain a certain fascination with the whole business of watching
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 7, 2010
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      I think there is much wisdom in both Mitch and John's remarks
      on audiophilia.

      But I retain a certain fascination with the whole business
      of watching themalfunctioning(as I see it) of the audio critical establishment.

      As I see it, audio lies in the intersection of two of the truly
      great accomplishments of humanity, music and physical science.
      Both of these represent the accumulation of centuries of work and
      investigation and experimentation, whether scientifically or aristically, of people of the highest genius. These two things
      are among the best the human race can do.

      And to tme there is something morbidly fascinating about watching people who often lack training in either of these disciplines, and who are of comparatively puny ability(and who among us is not, compared to Newton and Einstein,or Beethoven and Mozart) trying to tear down both structures at once or at least to offer determined judgments upon them as they are.

      On the one hand, they are perfectly willing to dismiss the physical explanation of the physical world. They seem able to convince themselves that things can be really demonstrably wrong with the physical performance of their systems in obviously audible terms and still at teh same time that their systems can be working in some sense correctly.

      They look at the evidence of valid physical measurements and say
      "I do not care" or "My ears tell me that this is right even if there is a 5 dB depression of the 100-200 Hz octave".

      On the other hand, they are also apparently perfectly willing simply to dismiss the accumulation of musical expertise, centuries of experimentation on what works as music in terms of sound.
      They are in short willing to desert the absolute sound as a standard.

      Now everyone has a perfect and inalienable right to like what they like, musically. It is fatuous to suppose that because some piece of music is canonized by the critical establishment that everyone will or even should like it. This is true of all aesthetic matters. If you look at Sherman(new photo section) and think he is not a beautiful dog, then to you he is not. To someone who admires Dobermans, he will likely be stunning. But to someone else he might look uninteresting or unattractice. This is a personal matter and if you have one view or the other, that is simply your business and no one else's. At a deep level, all musical and aesthetic judgments are similarly personal. Culture is in that sense the accumulation of a lot of different personal experiences.

      Still, there is something startling about watching people for whom the word musical amateur would be an overstatement try to reformulate completely the ideas of the musical aesthetics of sound against the accumulation of generations of musical genius.

      Great geniuses do shift the direction of culture on occasion. Michaelangelo for example changed the way in which people
      looked at the human body and reformulated the ideal of human beauty for the male body at least. All one has to do is compare Donatello's David, a "pretty boy", to Michaelangelo's heroic David to see that he shifted the paradigm of the male bodily ideal, and he shifted it for everyone in Europe at least. For centuries, the ideal of manly appearance became what he had made it.

      Another example is Wagner. Wagner and the composers immediately before him(Beethoven really started it) shifted the sound of orchestral music downward in a sense, making it heavier and weightier. cf
      http://www.regonaudio.com/HighRomanticism.html

      These shifts were the work of geniuses--Beethoven and Wagner
      answer to that word withut question.

      But audio critics are hardly in a position to shift aesthetic ideals in this way. They in no way fall into this category. Audio critics not seemingly liking warmth in music ought not and I surely hope will not make the whole culture turn away from warmth in music.

      The danger is that because the mass media are so influential, it could happen that people of the most dubious qualities could in fact cause major cultural shifts. In the past, only the colossal geniuses
      could move standards. In the world of the internet, things have come to seem less stable.

      This worries me, but it also interests me. I cannot help being interested in the spectacle of people deciding on their own
      that the sound of the concert halls almost universally admired by the great conductors (which are all warm sounding) is in fact a sound they do not like and do not approve of, to the point that they
      are willing to tell others that it is wrong.

      One hopes that they are as in the German proverb I quote
      so often about the great oak tree and the puppy dog peeing,
      that this will have no influence on music as a whole. And of course I also try to fight its influence on audio itself. But it is the former that matters. I had more faith before Disney Hall. But the fact that people liked it(if indeed they did--the good press could be just making the best of a "done deal" since it is hard to change the hall now) made me wonder if maybe the audio ideal of clarity at the cost of warmth was not propagating itself into the culture as a whole,
      as Forsyth presciently predicted in his chapter "The HiFi Concert Hall".

      It would be a shame if this happened.

      REG
    • robert jorgensen
      ... This happens on a large scale at the moment and not just in our area of interest. Truly worrying!!! ... It will and it is happening I m afraid. A somewhat
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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        On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Robert <regonaudio@...> wrote:

        >
        > The danger is that because the mass media are so influential, it could happen that people of the most dubious qualities could in fact cause major cultural shifts. In the past, only the colossal geniuses
        > could move standards. In the world of the internet, things have come to seem less stable.
        >

        This happens on a large scale at the moment and not just in our area
        of interest. Truly worrying!!!

        >
        > One hopes that they are as in the German proverb I quote
        > so often about the great oak tree and the puppy dog peeing,
        > that this will have no influence on music as a whole. And of course I also try to fight its influence on audio itself. But it is the former that matters. I had more faith before Disney Hall. But the fact that people liked it(if indeed they did--the good press could be just making the best of a "done deal" since it is hard to change the hall now) made me wonder if maybe the audio ideal of clarity at the cost of warmth was not propagating itself into the culture as a whole,
        > as Forsyth presciently predicted in his chapter "The HiFi Concert Hall".
        >
        > It would be a shame if this happened.
        >
        > REG

        It will and it is happening I'm afraid.

        A somewhat gloomy Robert in Brussels
      • Robert
        That makes two gloomy Roberts. I would suggest the following. It is a small thing but it is the best one can do easily if one is not in the reviewing business.
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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          That makes two gloomy Roberts.

          I would suggest the following. It is a small
          thing but it is the best one can do easily if
          one is not in the reviewing business.

          Why doesn't everyone here--and I am sure that is most
          of us--who object to the cold, thin sound of a dip between 100 and 200 Hz and a rising treble write a letter to Stereophile every time
          they publiush a review with measurements of a speaker
          like that wherein they do not SAY it is like that.

          If they started getting lots of letter saying that the readers wanted to have a truthful description of this and so on, I think they
          might change their ways. Magazines are influenced by what their
          subscribers and readers think and want!

          The address (for email ) is
          [Letters to the Editor]

          stletters@...


          Believe me, if everytime they did this(which is almost every issue)
          they got a hundred letters--and there are more than 200 of us here--
          objecting to the absence of truthful reviewing and the inaccurate
          description, they would rethink what they were doing in a hurry.

          We have a saying in English(for our European members)
          "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
          People who object get attention. Private gripes as here
          are very gratifying emotionally perhaps--I vent a lot here,
          as you have noticed I am sure as do some of the rest of you.
          But it is the PUBLIC objections that can really cause change
          and improvement.

          Stereophile, like any organization dependent on the public for survival, is sensitive to the opinions of the public. But they have no way to know what these opinions are except through communication from you!

          Please write--every time. It will help in the end.

          It can be short. But please do it.

          REG

          PS Since TAS does not
          publish measurements, it is less easy to look an article
          and say with certainty, this speakers is thin and bright and the
          review should say so. With Stereophile, the evidence
          is provided within the article. If you wanted
          to , you could write to TAS and quote Sphile's measurements
          when the TAS review seemed inconsistent with them, in particular
          about the issues of the lower midrange hole and the exaggerated treble ,two areas where measurements really mean something definite.
          Of course the lower midrange hole is affected by placement, but the
          excess treble is not. And even the lower mid hole ought to be mentioned as a problem potentially--if the SPhile reviewers do not
          get it right with placement, what chance is there that the
          customer will get it right. At least the issue could be raised legitimately.

          Pressure for the truth is the duty of the concerned citizen!


          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, robert jorgensen <robert.jorgensen@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Robert <regonaudio@...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > The danger is that because the mass media are so influential, it could happen that people of the most dubious qualities could in fact cause major cultural shifts. In the past, only the colossal geniuses
          > > could move standards. In the world of the internet, things have come to seem less stable.
          > >
          >
          > This happens on a large scale at the moment and not just in our area
          > of interest. Truly worrying!!!
          >
          > >
          > > One hopes that they are as in the German proverb I quote
          > > so often about the great oak tree and the puppy dog peeing,
          > > that this will have no influence on music as a whole. And of course I also try to fight its influence on audio itself. But it is the former that matters. I had more faith before Disney Hall. But the fact that people liked it(if indeed they did--the good press could be just making the best of a "done deal" since it is hard to change the hall now) made me wonder if maybe the audio ideal of clarity at the cost of warmth was not propagating itself into the culture as a whole,
          > > as Forsyth presciently predicted in his chapter "The HiFi Concert Hall".
          > >
          > > It would be a shame if this happened.
          > >
          > > REG
          >
          > It will and it is happening I'm afraid.
          >
          > A somewhat gloomy Robert in Brussels
          >
        • Will_H
          To be fair and to give Sterophile an accurate view of what their real readership wants, perhaps only those who actually subscribe to Stereophile should write
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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            To be fair and to give Sterophile an accurate view of what their real
            readership wants, perhaps only those who actually subscribe to Stereophile
            should write these letters...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Robert" <regonaudio@...>
            To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:10 PM
            Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Going one's own way


            > That makes two gloomy Roberts.
            >
            > I would suggest the following. It is a small
            > thing but it is the best one can do easily if
            > one is not in the reviewing business.
            >
            > Why doesn't everyone here--and I am sure that is most
            > of us--who object to the cold, thin sound of a dip between 100 and 200 Hz
            > and a rising treble write a letter to Stereophile every time
            > they publiush a review with measurements of a speaker
            > like that wherein they do not SAY it is like that.
            >
            > If they started getting lots of letter saying that the readers wanted to
            > have a truthful description of this and so on, I think they
            > might change their ways. Magazines are influenced by what their
            > subscribers and readers think and want!
            >
            > The address (for email ) is
            > [Letters to the Editor]
            >
            > stletters@...
            >
            >
            > Believe me, if everytime they did this(which is almost every issue)
            > they got a hundred letters--and there are more than 200 of us here--
            > objecting to the absence of truthful reviewing and the inaccurate
            > description, they would rethink what they were doing in a hurry.
            >
            > We have a saying in English(for our European members)
            > "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
            > People who object get attention. Private gripes as here
            > are very gratifying emotionally perhaps--I vent a lot here,
            > as you have noticed I am sure as do some of the rest of you.
            > But it is the PUBLIC objections that can really cause change
            > and improvement.
            >
            > Stereophile, like any organization dependent on the public for survival,
            > is sensitive to the opinions of the public. But they have no way to know
            > what these opinions are except through communication from you!
            >
            > Please write--every time. It will help in the end.
            >
            > It can be short. But please do it.
            >
            > REG
            >
            > PS Since TAS does not
            > publish measurements, it is less easy to look an article
            > and say with certainty, this speakers is thin and bright and the
            > review should say so. With Stereophile, the evidence
            > is provided within the article. If you wanted
            > to , you could write to TAS and quote Sphile's measurements
            > when the TAS review seemed inconsistent with them, in particular
            > about the issues of the lower midrange hole and the exaggerated treble
            > ,two areas where measurements really mean something definite.
            > Of course the lower midrange hole is affected by placement, but the
            > excess treble is not. And even the lower mid hole ought to be mentioned as
            > a problem potentially--if the SPhile reviewers do not
            > get it right with placement, what chance is there that the
            > customer will get it right. At least the issue could be raised
            > legitimately.
            >
            > Pressure for the truth is the duty of the concerned citizen!
            >
            >
            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, robert jorgensen
            > <robert.jorgensen@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Robert <regonaudio@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> >
            >> > The danger is that because the mass media are so influential, it could
            >> > happen that people of the most dubious qualities could in fact cause
            >> > major cultural shifts. In the past, only the colossal geniuses
            >> > could move standards. In the world of the internet, things have come to
            >> > seem less stable.
            >> >
            >>
            >> This happens on a large scale at the moment and not just in our area
            >> of interest. Truly worrying!!!
            >>
            >> >
            >> > One hopes that they are as in the German proverb I quote
            >> > so often about the great oak tree and the puppy dog peeing,
            >> > that this will have no influence on music as a whole. And of course I
            >> > also try to fight its influence on audio itself. But it is the former
            >> > that matters. I had more faith before Disney Hall. But the fact that
            >> > people liked it(if indeed they did--the good press could be just making
            >> > the best of a "done deal" since it is hard to change the hall now) made
            >> > me wonder if maybe the audio ideal of clarity at the cost of warmth was
            >> > not propagating itself into the culture as a whole,
            >> > as Forsyth presciently predicted in his chapter "The HiFi Concert
            >> > Hall".
            >> >
            >> > It would be a shame if this happened.
            >> >
            >> > REG
            >>
            >> It will and it is happening I'm afraid.
            >>
            >> A somewhat gloomy Robert in Brussels
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----
            > No virus found in this message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3245 - Release Date: 11/08/10
            >
          • Will_H
            Forgot to add those who buy off the newstand too... don t mean to be a killjoy, I think your suggestion is a good one. ... From: Will_H
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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              Forgot to add those who buy off the newstand too... don't mean to be a
              killjoy, I think your suggestion is a good one.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Will_H" <will_hum@...>
              To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Going one's own way


              > To be fair and to give Sterophile an accurate view of what their real
              > readership wants, perhaps only those who actually subscribe to Stereophile
              > should write these letters...
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Robert" <regonaudio@...>
              > To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:10 PM
              > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Going one's own way
              >
              >
              >> That makes two gloomy Roberts.
              >>
              >> I would suggest the following. It is a small
              >> thing but it is the best one can do easily if
              >> one is not in the reviewing business.
              >>
              >> Why doesn't everyone here--and I am sure that is most
              >> of us--who object to the cold, thin sound of a dip between 100 and 200 Hz
              >> and a rising treble write a letter to Stereophile every time
              >> they publiush a review with measurements of a speaker
              >> like that wherein they do not SAY it is like that.
              >>
              >> If they started getting lots of letter saying that the readers wanted to
              >> have a truthful description of this and so on, I think they
              >> might change their ways. Magazines are influenced by what their
              >> subscribers and readers think and want!
              >>
              >> The address (for email ) is
              >> [Letters to the Editor]
              >>
              >> stletters@...
              >>
              >>
              >> Believe me, if everytime they did this(which is almost every issue)
              >> they got a hundred letters--and there are more than 200 of us here--
              >> objecting to the absence of truthful reviewing and the inaccurate
              >> description, they would rethink what they were doing in a hurry.
              >>
              >> We have a saying in English(for our European members)
              >> "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
              >> People who object get attention. Private gripes as here
              >> are very gratifying emotionally perhaps--I vent a lot here,
              >> as you have noticed I am sure as do some of the rest of you.
              >> But it is the PUBLIC objections that can really cause change
              >> and improvement.
              >>
              >> Stereophile, like any organization dependent on the public for survival,
              >> is sensitive to the opinions of the public. But they have no way to know
              >> what these opinions are except through communication from you!
              >>
              >> Please write--every time. It will help in the end.
              >>
              >> It can be short. But please do it.
              >>
              >> REG
              >>
              >> PS Since TAS does not
              >> publish measurements, it is less easy to look an article
              >> and say with certainty, this speakers is thin and bright and the
              >> review should say so. With Stereophile, the evidence
              >> is provided within the article. If you wanted
              >> to , you could write to TAS and quote Sphile's measurements
              >> when the TAS review seemed inconsistent with them, in particular
              >> about the issues of the lower midrange hole and the exaggerated treble
              >> ,two areas where measurements really mean something definite.
              >> Of course the lower midrange hole is affected by placement, but the
              >> excess treble is not. And even the lower mid hole ought to be mentioned
              >> as
              >> a problem potentially--if the SPhile reviewers do not
              >> get it right with placement, what chance is there that the
              >> customer will get it right. At least the issue could be raised
              >> legitimately.
              >>
              >> Pressure for the truth is the duty of the concerned citizen!
              >>
              >>
              >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, robert jorgensen
              >> <robert.jorgensen@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Robert <regonaudio@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> >
              >>> > The danger is that because the mass media are so influential, it could
              >>> > happen that people of the most dubious qualities could in fact cause
              >>> > major cultural shifts. In the past, only the colossal geniuses
              >>> > could move standards. In the world of the internet, things have come
              >>> > to
              >>> > seem less stable.
              >>> >
              >>>
              >>> This happens on a large scale at the moment and not just in our area
              >>> of interest. Truly worrying!!!
              >>>
              >>> >
              >>> > One hopes that they are as in the German proverb I quote
              >>> > so often about the great oak tree and the puppy dog peeing,
              >>> > that this will have no influence on music as a whole. And of course I
              >>> > also try to fight its influence on audio itself. But it is the former
              >>> > that matters. I had more faith before Disney Hall. But the fact that
              >>> > people liked it(if indeed they did--the good press could be just
              >>> > making
              >>> > the best of a "done deal" since it is hard to change the hall now)
              >>> > made
              >>> > me wonder if maybe the audio ideal of clarity at the cost of warmth
              >>> > was
              >>> > not propagating itself into the culture as a whole,
              >>> > as Forsyth presciently predicted in his chapter "The HiFi Concert
              >>> > Hall".
              >>> >
              >>> > It would be a shame if this happened.
              >>> >
              >>> > REG
              >>>
              >>> It will and it is happening I'm afraid.
              >>>
              >>> A somewhat gloomy Robert in Brussels
              >>>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> -----
              >> No virus found in this message.
              >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              >> Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3245 - Release Date: 11/08/10
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----
              > No virus found in this message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3245 - Release Date: 11/08/10
              >
            • Will_H
              This may be too ghetto for everyone here, but what the heck.... As I mentioned in an earlier post, I picked up a pair of $200 Pioneer floorstanders (FS-51) a
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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                This may be too "ghetto" for everyone here, but what the heck....

                As I mentioned in an earlier post, I picked up a pair of $200 Pioneer
                floorstanders (FS-51) a few weeks ago on a whim (actually a bit more than
                that since I actually drove across the border to pick them up from Best
                Buy). Mainly on the reputation of Andrew Jones of TAD fame. Was curious if
                these could give Paul Barton and the Alphas a run for their money. I
                figured if I didn't like them, I could still use them in the family room
                with the TV... how bad could they be, right?!

                They are OK for $200, but the ~50% more expensive PSB Alpha's sound cleaner
                and better balanced to my ears.

                My main complaint with the Pioneers is that they sound terribly recessed in
                the midrange and have a very subdued treble... here's one speaker where you
                actually have to turn up the treble. And they don't really come alive until
                you crank up the volume... at the moderate volumes I listen at, they sound
                lifeless.

                Sometimes paying more really does get you more.

                On the up side, the rest of the family is really enjoying them in the family
                room... they love the extra bass compared to the mini-monitor Wharfedale
                Diamond speakers I had there before. It's pretty good with the loud
                compressed pop music my daughters enjoy.
              • Robert
                Are these one of the Jones designs with the waveguide loaded tweeter concentric with the mid driver? REG
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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                  Are these one of the Jones designs with the
                  waveguide loaded tweeter concentric with the mid driver?

                  REG

                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Will_H" <will_hum@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > This may be too "ghetto" for everyone here, but what the heck....
                  >
                  > As I mentioned in an earlier post, I picked up a pair of $200 Pioneer
                  > floorstanders (FS-51) a few weeks ago on a whim (actually a bit more than
                  > that since I actually drove across the border to pick them up from Best
                  > Buy). Mainly on the reputation of Andrew Jones of TAD fame. Was curious if
                  > these could give Paul Barton and the Alphas a run for their money. I
                  > figured if I didn't like them, I could still use them in the family room
                  > with the TV... how bad could they be, right?!
                  >
                  > They are OK for $200, but the ~50% more expensive PSB Alpha's sound cleaner
                  > and better balanced to my ears.
                  >
                  > My main complaint with the Pioneers is that they sound terribly recessed in
                  > the midrange and have a very subdued treble... here's one speaker where you
                  > actually have to turn up the treble. And they don't really come alive until
                  > you crank up the volume... at the moderate volumes I listen at, they sound
                  > lifeless.
                  >
                  > Sometimes paying more really does get you more.
                  >
                  > On the up side, the rest of the family is really enjoying them in the family
                  > room... they love the extra bass compared to the mini-monitor Wharfedale
                  > Diamond speakers I had there before. It's pretty good with the loud
                  > compressed pop music my daughters enjoy.
                  >
                • Robert
                  Well, given the number of references I and others have made here to the Sphile website, I suppose that we are all readers in some sense. Incidentally, you
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 8, 2010
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                    Well, given the number of references I and others have
                    made here to the Sphile website, I suppose that
                    we are all readers in some sense.

                    Incidentally, you might was well subscribe--the thing
                    is almosst free. (They are apparently supported
                    by ad revenue to the point where the cost of
                    the magazine to the consumer can be very small)

                    REG

                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Will_H" <will_hum@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Forgot to add those who buy off the newstand too... don't mean to be a
                    > killjoy, I think your suggestion is a good one.
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Will_H" <will_hum@...>
                    > To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:53 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Going one's own way
                    >
                    >
                    > > To be fair and to give Sterophile an accurate view of what their real
                    > > readership wants, perhaps only those who actually subscribe to Stereophile
                    > > should write these letters...
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Robert" <regonaudio@...>
                    > > To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 1:10 PM
                    > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Going one's own way
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >> That makes two gloomy Roberts.
                    > >>
                    > >> I would suggest the following. It is a small
                    > >> thing but it is the best one can do easily if
                    > >> one is not in the reviewing business.
                    > >>
                    > >> Why doesn't everyone here--and I am sure that is most
                    > >> of us--who object to the cold, thin sound of a dip between 100 and 200 Hz
                    > >> and a rising treble write a letter to Stereophile every time
                    > >> they publiush a review with measurements of a speaker
                    > >> like that wherein they do not SAY it is like that.
                    > >>
                    > >> If they started getting lots of letter saying that the readers wanted to
                    > >> have a truthful description of this and so on, I think they
                    > >> might change their ways. Magazines are influenced by what their
                    > >> subscribers and readers think and want!
                    > >>
                    > >> The address (for email ) is
                    > >> [Letters to the Editor]
                    > >>
                    > >> stletters@...
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Believe me, if everytime they did this(which is almost every issue)
                    > >> they got a hundred letters--and there are more than 200 of us here--
                    > >> objecting to the absence of truthful reviewing and the inaccurate
                    > >> description, they would rethink what they were doing in a hurry.
                    > >>
                    > >> We have a saying in English(for our European members)
                    > >> "The squeaky wheel gets the grease"
                    > >> People who object get attention. Private gripes as here
                    > >> are very gratifying emotionally perhaps--I vent a lot here,
                    > >> as you have noticed I am sure as do some of the rest of you.
                    > >> But it is the PUBLIC objections that can really cause change
                    > >> and improvement.
                    > >>
                    > >> Stereophile, like any organization dependent on the public for survival,
                    > >> is sensitive to the opinions of the public. But they have no way to know
                    > >> what these opinions are except through communication from you!
                    > >>
                    > >> Please write--every time. It will help in the end.
                    > >>
                    > >> It can be short. But please do it.
                    > >>
                    > >> REG
                    > >>
                    > >> PS Since TAS does not
                    > >> publish measurements, it is less easy to look an article
                    > >> and say with certainty, this speakers is thin and bright and the
                    > >> review should say so. With Stereophile, the evidence
                    > >> is provided within the article. If you wanted
                    > >> to , you could write to TAS and quote Sphile's measurements
                    > >> when the TAS review seemed inconsistent with them, in particular
                    > >> about the issues of the lower midrange hole and the exaggerated treble
                    > >> ,two areas where measurements really mean something definite.
                    > >> Of course the lower midrange hole is affected by placement, but the
                    > >> excess treble is not. And even the lower mid hole ought to be mentioned
                    > >> as
                    > >> a problem potentially--if the SPhile reviewers do not
                    > >> get it right with placement, what chance is there that the
                    > >> customer will get it right. At least the issue could be raised
                    > >> legitimately.
                    > >>
                    > >> Pressure for the truth is the duty of the concerned citizen!
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, robert jorgensen
                    > >> <robert.jorgensen@> wrote:
                    > >>>
                    > >>> On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Robert <regonaudio@> wrote:
                    > >>>
                    > >>> >
                    > >>> > The danger is that because the mass media are so influential, it could
                    > >>> > happen that people of the most dubious qualities could in fact cause
                    > >>> > major cultural shifts. In the past, only the colossal geniuses
                    > >>> > could move standards. In the world of the internet, things have come
                    > >>> > to
                    > >>> > seem less stable.
                    > >>> >
                    > >>>
                    > >>> This happens on a large scale at the moment and not just in our area
                    > >>> of interest. Truly worrying!!!
                    > >>>
                    > >>> >
                    > >>> > One hopes that they are as in the German proverb I quote
                    > >>> > so often about the great oak tree and the puppy dog peeing,
                    > >>> > that this will have no influence on music as a whole. And of course I
                    > >>> > also try to fight its influence on audio itself. But it is the former
                    > >>> > that matters. I had more faith before Disney Hall. But the fact that
                    > >>> > people liked it(if indeed they did--the good press could be just
                    > >>> > making
                    > >>> > the best of a "done deal" since it is hard to change the hall now)
                    > >>> > made
                    > >>> > me wonder if maybe the audio ideal of clarity at the cost of warmth
                    > >>> > was
                    > >>> > not propagating itself into the culture as a whole,
                    > >>> > as Forsyth presciently predicted in his chapter "The HiFi Concert
                    > >>> > Hall".
                    > >>> >
                    > >>> > It would be a shame if this happened.
                    > >>> >
                    > >>> > REG
                    > >>>
                    > >>> It will and it is happening I'm afraid.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> A somewhat gloomy Robert in Brussels
                    > >>>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------
                    > >>
                    > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> -----
                    > >> No virus found in this message.
                    > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > >> Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3245 - Release Date: 11/08/10
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----
                    > > No virus found in this message.
                    > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > > Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3245 - Release Date: 11/08/10
                    > >
                    >
                  • will_hum
                    No, it is a traditional floorstander with a tweeter on top and 3 midrange/woofers below. Here s a link: http://tinyurl.com/2e2m8hk Andrew Jones has posted on
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 9, 2010
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                      No, it is a traditional floorstander with a tweeter on top and 3 midrange/woofers below.

                      Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/2e2m8hk

                      Andrew Jones has posted on the AVS Forum that this budget speaker line with his name on it is more than just marketing... he actually had full control over the design (within the budget constraints)


                      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regonaudio@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Are these one of the Jones designs with the
                      > waveguide loaded tweeter concentric with the mid driver?
                      >
                      > REG
                      >
                      > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Will_H" <will_hum@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > This may be too "ghetto" for everyone here, but what the heck....
                      > >
                      > > As I mentioned in an earlier post, I picked up a pair of $200 Pioneer
                      > > floorstanders (FS-51) a few weeks ago on a whim (actually a bit more than
                      > > that since I actually drove across the border to pick them up from Best
                      > > Buy). Mainly on the reputation of Andrew Jones of TAD fame. Was curious if
                      > > these could give Paul Barton and the Alphas a run for their money. I
                      > > figured if I didn't like them, I could still use them in the family room
                      > > with the TV... how bad could they be, right?!
                      > >
                      > > They are OK for $200, but the ~50% more expensive PSB Alpha's sound cleaner
                      > > and better balanced to my ears.
                      > >
                      > > My main complaint with the Pioneers is that they sound terribly recessed in
                      > > the midrange and have a very subdued treble... here's one speaker where you
                      > > actually have to turn up the treble. And they don't really come alive until
                      > > you crank up the volume... at the moderate volumes I listen at, they sound
                      > > lifeless.
                      > >
                      > > Sometimes paying more really does get you more.
                      > >
                      > > On the up side, the rest of the family is really enjoying them in the family
                      > > room... they love the extra bass compared to the mini-monitor Wharfedale
                      > > Diamond speakers I had there before. It's pretty good with the loud
                      > > compressed pop music my daughters enjoy.
                      > >
                      >
                    • Robert
                      Are these really $200 per pair? This seems almost unbelievable. I must say that much as I admire the PSB Alpha B1s, the main thing wrong with them(as you can
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 9, 2010
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                        Are these really $200 per pair?

                        This seems almost unbelievable.

                        I must say that much as I admire the PSB Alpha B1s, the main thing wrong with them(as you can see on their Soundstage measurements)
                        is that they have a couple of 2 dB peaks at 1.5 k and 2.25 k
                        that make them sound over lively.
                        Sounding more subdued than this is likely correct.
                        Of course there is a problem with running a largish woofer up
                        to meet a small tweeter.

                        But still, I wonder....

                        Could you run some measurements on these things?
                        I would be really interested to see something.

                        The PSB Alpha B1s really need a subwoofer to sound
                        reasonable--no real bass. And this brings the system
                        price up to beyond the truly low price level. Also
                        they really need EQ to sound as smooth as one might hope for.
                        Not much EQ but some!

                        So these Pioneers might be a contender for what to tell
                        people to buy who are short on money(students are
                        always asking me what to buy for example)

                        Measurements of any sort would be much appreciated.

                        REG



                        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "will_hum" <will_hum@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > No, it is a traditional floorstander with a tweeter on top and 3 midrange/woofers below.
                        >
                        > Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/2e2m8hk
                        >
                        > Andrew Jones has posted on the AVS Forum that this budget speaker line with his name on it is more than just marketing... he actually had full control over the design (within the budget constraints)
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regonaudio@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Are these one of the Jones designs with the
                        > > waveguide loaded tweeter concentric with the mid driver?
                        > >
                        > > REG
                        > >
                        > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Will_H" <will_hum@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > This may be too "ghetto" for everyone here, but what the heck....
                        > > >
                        > > > As I mentioned in an earlier post, I picked up a pair of $200 Pioneer
                        > > > floorstanders (FS-51) a few weeks ago on a whim (actually a bit more than
                        > > > that since I actually drove across the border to pick them up from Best
                        > > > Buy). Mainly on the reputation of Andrew Jones of TAD fame. Was curious if
                        > > > these could give Paul Barton and the Alphas a run for their money. I
                        > > > figured if I didn't like them, I could still use them in the family room
                        > > > with the TV... how bad could they be, right?!
                        > > >
                        > > > They are OK for $200, but the ~50% more expensive PSB Alpha's sound cleaner
                        > > > and better balanced to my ears.
                        > > >
                        > > > My main complaint with the Pioneers is that they sound terribly recessed in
                        > > > the midrange and have a very subdued treble... here's one speaker where you
                        > > > actually have to turn up the treble. And they don't really come alive until
                        > > > you crank up the volume... at the moderate volumes I listen at, they sound
                        > > > lifeless.
                        > > >
                        > > > Sometimes paying more really does get you more.
                        > > >
                        > > > On the up side, the rest of the family is really enjoying them in the family
                        > > > room... they love the extra bass compared to the mini-monitor Wharfedale
                        > > > Diamond speakers I had there before. It's pretty good with the loud
                        > > > compressed pop music my daughters enjoy.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Will_H
                        Yep, $200. And since they are sold at Best Buy, their Rewards Points and occassional usual discount coupons are applicable. When I was in Plattsburgh to pick
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 10, 2010
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                          Yep, $200. And since they are sold at Best Buy, their Rewards Points and
                          occassional usual discount coupons are applicable.

                          When I was in Plattsburgh to pick them up, I should have stopped at Radio
                          Shack to pick up an SPL meter too... I don't have the means to measure them
                          now, but when I eventually get something, I'll do that for you.

                          In the AVS thread, the marketing man from Pioneer mentioned he was going to
                          ask AJ to put up some measurements, but I guess he hasn't had time yet.

                          One warning... the pictures are deceiving... these speakers are short (only
                          32") so best used on some thick gardening stones.


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Robert" <regonaudio@...>
                          To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:57 PM
                          Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: $200 Pioneer speakers by Andrew Jones


                          >
                          > Are these really $200 per pair?
                          >
                          > This seems almost unbelievable.
                          >
                          > I must say that much as I admire the PSB Alpha B1s, the main thing wrong
                          > with them(as you can see on their Soundstage measurements)
                          > is that they have a couple of 2 dB peaks at 1.5 k and 2.25 k
                          > that make them sound over lively.
                          > Sounding more subdued than this is likely correct.
                          > Of course there is a problem with running a largish woofer up
                          > to meet a small tweeter.
                          >
                          > But still, I wonder....
                          >
                          > Could you run some measurements on these things?
                          > I would be really interested to see something.
                          >
                          > The PSB Alpha B1s really need a subwoofer to sound
                          > reasonable--no real bass. And this brings the system
                          > price up to beyond the truly low price level. Also
                          > they really need EQ to sound as smooth as one might hope for.
                          > Not much EQ but some!
                          >
                          > So these Pioneers might be a contender for what to tell
                          > people to buy who are short on money(students are
                          > always asking me what to buy for example)
                          >
                          > Measurements of any sort would be much appreciated.
                          >
                          > REG
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "will_hum" <will_hum@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> No, it is a traditional floorstander with a tweeter on top and 3
                          >> midrange/woofers below.
                          >>
                          >> Here's a link: http://tinyurl.com/2e2m8hk
                          >>
                          >> Andrew Jones has posted on the AVS Forum that this budget speaker line
                          >> with his name on it is more than just marketing... he actually had full
                          >> control over the design (within the budget constraints)
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <regonaudio@> wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> > Are these one of the Jones designs with the
                          >> > waveguide loaded tweeter concentric with the mid driver?
                          >> >
                          >> > REG
                          >> >
                          >> > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Will_H" <will_hum@> wrote:
                          >> > >
                          >> > > This may be too "ghetto" for everyone here, but what the heck....
                          >> > >
                          >> > > As I mentioned in an earlier post, I picked up a pair of $200 Pioneer
                          >> > > floorstanders (FS-51) a few weeks ago on a whim (actually a bit more
                          >> > > than
                          >> > > that since I actually drove across the border to pick them up from
                          >> > > Best
                          >> > > Buy). Mainly on the reputation of Andrew Jones of TAD fame. Was
                          >> > > curious if
                          >> > > these could give Paul Barton and the Alphas a run for their money. I
                          >> > > figured if I didn't like them, I could still use them in the family
                          >> > > room
                          >> > > with the TV... how bad could they be, right?!
                          >> > >
                          >> > > They are OK for $200, but the ~50% more expensive PSB Alpha's sound
                          >> > > cleaner
                          >> > > and better balanced to my ears.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > My main complaint with the Pioneers is that they sound terribly
                          >> > > recessed in
                          >> > > the midrange and have a very subdued treble... here's one speaker
                          >> > > where you
                          >> > > actually have to turn up the treble. And they don't really come
                          >> > > alive until
                          >> > > you crank up the volume... at the moderate volumes I listen at, they
                          >> > > sound
                          >> > > lifeless.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > Sometimes paying more really does get you more.
                          >> > >
                          >> > > On the up side, the rest of the family is really enjoying them in the
                          >> > > family
                          >> > > room... they love the extra bass compared to the mini-monitor
                          >> > > Wharfedale
                          >> > > Diamond speakers I had there before. It's pretty good with the loud
                          >> > > compressed pop music my daughters enjoy.
                          >> > >
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----
                          > No virus found in this message.
                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3247 - Release Date: 11/09/10
                          >
                        • Russell Dawkins
                          here s more info: http://hd.engadget.com/2010/09/09/pioneer-shares-affordable-line-of-speakers-snobs-sob/ There does seem to be some confusion over the price.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 10, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            here's more info:
                            http://hd.engadget.com/2010/09/09/pioneer-shares-affordable-line-of-speakers-snobs-sob/

                            There does seem to be some confusion over the price. $200 seems plausible, but I did read $89.99 each here, FWIW:
                            http://www.elitezoom.com/pioneer-sp-series-home-theater-and-music-speakers.html
                          • Will_H
                            The floorstanding FS51 are $199.99 per pair The bookshelf BS41 (what an unfortunate acronym!) are also $199.99 per pair The smaller bookshelf BS21 is $89.99
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 10, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The floorstanding FS51 are $199.99 per pair
                              The bookshelf BS41 (what an unfortunate acronym!) are also $199.99 per pair
                              The smaller bookshelf BS21 is $89.99 per pair

                              When I asked why the FS51 and BS41 were the same price, they (Andrew Jones
                              and the Pioneer marketing guy - forget his name) hinted that it was because
                              of Best Buy's "buying/selling power" that allowed them to sell the FS51 at
                              $199.99. Best Buy decided not to carry the BS41 at the last minute... so it
                              is sold direct from Pioneer for $199.99. J&R also sells the BS41... they
                              had it on sale a couple weeks ago for $89.99 but they wanted $60 to ship it
                              to Canada.

                              Initially I suspected that the BS41 had better quality parts to justify it
                              costing the same as the floorstander, but was assured that they all have the
                              same quality parts. I actually started looking into these speakers because
                              Kalman Rubinson from Stereophile commented favorably on the BS41's he heard
                              at CEDIA.

                              The non-removable protective metal grills on all the drivers makes them very
                              family-room friendly... no worries about young ones poking in the tweeter.

                              For those Canucks who are interested but don't want to drive to the USA,
                              Best Buy Canada is supposed to start selling these in early 2011.




                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Russell Dawkins" <rdawkins@...>
                              To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:15 PM
                              Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: $200 Pioneer speakers by Andrew Jones


                              > here's more info:
                              > http://hd.engadget.com/2010/09/09/pioneer-shares-affordable-line-of-speakers-snobs-sob/
                              >
                              > There does seem to be some confusion over the price. $200 seems plausible,
                              > but I did read $89.99 each here, FWIW:
                              > http://www.elitezoom.com/pioneer-sp-series-home-theater-and-music-speakers.html
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----
                              > No virus found in this message.
                              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              > Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3248 - Release Date: 11/10/10
                              >
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