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RE: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables

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  • Fred
    Quite agree - and I ll bet that everyone who solders has a stock of proper solder laid away! The Blue Jeans ultrasonically welded cable looks interesting
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 6, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Quite agree - and I'll bet that everyone who solders has a stock of "proper" solder laid away!

      The Blue Jeans ultrasonically welded cable looks interesting (I'll omit comment on cable beliefs).

      Crimping can be better than soldering with the right terminals and wire but a proper crimping tool is somewhat expensive. My "Certified" one cost well over 50 Pounds some 20+ years ago.

      Fred.


      --- On Tue, 6/7/10, Richard Tuck <rtuck@...> wrote:

      From: Richard Tuck <rtuck@...>
      Subject: RE: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, 6 July, 2010, 22:50



      Hi Tom



      This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are just

      not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders is

      exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they are

      not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat the

      first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.



      Richard



      -----Original Message-----

      From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]

      On Behalf Of Tom Mallin

      Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02

      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com

      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables



      . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is now

      offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will soon

      offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:



      http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm



      While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into if

      you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated pair

      of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.



      As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using

      unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in Caig's

      Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily used

      the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was these

      cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire merry-go-round.

      Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than any

      of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so much

      easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus

      terminate).



      I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for

      bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from Blue

      Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor

      12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .



      Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of

      visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green look

      untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever do

      get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable and

      expose fresh clean copper.



      Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,

      arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved, the

      more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen to

      think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly better

      sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of

      termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,

      what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not

      blind-tested this.



      But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both

      accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger speaker

      cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly clamping

      large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands can

      easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate only 16-

      or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in many

      surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic reasons

      you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use heavy-gauge

      speaker wires.



      This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us another

      option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic benefit

      as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are the

      mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter to the

      cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock very

      tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller

      speaker cables.



      Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way to

      used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit with

      the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding

      post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut on

      the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this is

      done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and

      eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled nut

      and the post shaft.







      ------------------------------------



      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Richard Tuck
      One of the main issues is LFS is not a eutectic alloy, like 60:40 tin:lead, so it does not flow well and instantly go from liquid to solid. It s more like
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 7, 2010
      • 0 Attachment

        One of the main issues is LFS is not a eutectic alloy, like 60:40 tin:lead, so it does not flow well and instantly go from liquid to solid.  It’s more like plumbers metal that has a plastic phase that enables wiped joints.  BTW the silver content is nothing to do with conductivity but to stop silver plating dissolving in the solder. Mix the two systems at your peril.

        Migrating a lead solder based product to lead free is a non-trivial operation requiring a complete change of both components and PCBs this is why the only dCS ADCs you can buy are second hand – the margins on pro gear made it uneconomic.

        Richard

         


        From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
        Sent: 07 July 2010 01:37
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables

         




        Yes, the Web is full of tales of how awful lead-free solder is, from unknown hazards (compared to the known hazards of lead), to high melting point and thus unreliable joints, to growing whiskers.  Lead content solder (even "audiophile" brands like TRT and WBT) is still available in the US and I've been using that for my vintage speaker projects.  See, for example, Parts Express:

         

         

        The melting temperature of this WBT leaded solder is a full 100 degrees F lower than the lead-free stuff and very quickly flows exactly where you want it to go with minimal effort.

        >>> "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...>
        7/6/2010 4:50 PM >>>
        Hi Tom

        This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are just
        not as reliable as those containing lead.  The use of lead-free solders is
        exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they are
        not that easy to use and easy to get wrong.  I personally smelt a rat the
        first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.

        Richard


        -----Original Message-----
        From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
        Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
        To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables

        . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable.  Blue Jeans is now
        offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will soon
        offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs.  No solder is used.  See:

        http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm

        While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into if
        you are looking for new speaker cables.  A 10-foot factory-terminated pair
        of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.

        As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
        unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in Caig's
        Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold).  I have primarily used
        the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans.  It was these
        cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire merry-go-round.
        Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than any
        of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so much
        easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus
        terminate). 

        I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for
        bi-wiring.  With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from Blue
        Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
        12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .

        Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
        visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green look
        untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air.  If they ever do
        get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable and
        expose fresh clean copper.

        Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
        arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved, the
        more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection.  I happen to
        think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly better
        sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
        termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
        what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
        blind-tested this.

        But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
        accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger speaker
        cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts.  Tightly clamping
        large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands can
        easily slip out from under the clamp.  Or the holes may accommodate only 16-
        or at most 14-gauge wires.  And if your posts are close together, as in many
        surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic reasons
        you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use heavy-gauge
        speaker wires.

        This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us another
        option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic benefit
        as well.  The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are the
        mechanically finest of their kind I have used.  If these lock tighter to the
        cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock very
        tight indeed.  These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller
        speaker cables.

        Those with Harbeth speakers:  be aware that a mechanically superior way to
        used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit with
        the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding
        post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut on
        the binding post.  All parts should be treated with ProGold before this is
        done, of course.  This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
        eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled nut
        and the post shaft.





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      • Tom Mallin
        In case it is not immediately obvious to others, many types of speaker wire used by audiophiles require some sort of melting and soldering to terminate them in
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 7, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          In case it is not immediately obvious to others, many types of speaker
          wire used by audiophiles require some sort of melting and soldering to
          terminate them in any reasonable way. You cannot easily make a "bare
          wire" connection with such cables.

          Most high-end speaker wire can be classified as some sort of Litz wire
          where individual fine wire strands are individually insulated and then
          woven or laid together in some way. Such wire requires the use of
          something like a solder pot or flame to melt the insulation off the
          individual strands since it is impossible to mechanically strip away the
          insulation by friction methods--the strands are too fragile and will
          break. Most times a solder pot is used. Once the strands are coated
          with solder, you may as well solder the connection since you no longer
          will have a bare wire connection which is of whatever hyper-pure metal
          the manufacturer advertises.

          And the very thin, flat strips of wire used in Goertz and some other
          brands are also practically impossible for the end user to mechanically
          strip. You could use some sort of insulation-piercing connection, but
          then you have a very small point of contact and risk puncturing the
          conductor as well as the insulation when making the connection, as well
          as possibly shorting the positive and negative strips if the piercing
          inadvertently goes into the other conductor.

          Thus, DIY speaker cables are most frequently of the "lamp cord"
          variety, where the strands are only insulated around the whole lump, or
          "solid core" cable where the strands are 20-gauge or larger to allow
          individual strands to be easily stripped by mechanical means. Such
          wires allow the actual connection points to be of whatever fine metal
          the cable is advertised to be.

          And usually that finely-stranded metal is quite malleable, allowing a
          gas-tight connection--one that will not easily corrode--to be made with
          many types of binding posts using only your fingers to tighten the
          connection. I know from painful experience that the easiest way to
          break a speaker cable binding post is to tighten it with a good wrench
          in an attempt to get a gas-tight connection on a spade lug.

          The hole through most binding posts is handy for clamping down on bare
          wire, but it also makes the post quite vulnerable to breakage from
          applying too much torque, and too much is not very much. Large diameter
          posts tend to have large-diameter holes, leaving them equally vulnerable
          as posts which only allow 16-gauge wire through the post hole. Bryston
          amps may have a 20-year warranty, but I broke a post in 20 seconds in my
          first attempt to connect a spade-lugged speaker wire. The holes in
          those posts are huge, allowing 6-gauge or larger cable, but there is
          precious little metal left to take even the torque I could easily apply
          to even the plastic hex nut using the right size of socket with a
          ratchet wrench. You only do that once, or in case you are really
          audiophile-stupid like me, twice, before learning your lesson.


          >>> "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> 7/7/2010 9:37 AM >>>



          One of the main issues is LFS is not a eutectic alloy, like 60:40
          tin:lead, so it does not flow well and instantly go from liquid to
          solid. It’s more like plumbers metal that has a plastic phase that
          enables wiped joints. BTW the silver content is nothing to do with
          conductivity but to stop silver plating dissolving in the solder. Mix
          the two systems at your peril.
          Migrating a lead solder based product to lead free is a non-trivial
          operation requiring a complete change of both components and PCBs this
          is why the only dCS ADCs you can buy are second hand – the margins on
          pro gear made it uneconomic.
          Richard



          From:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
          Sent: 07 July 2010 01:37
          To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables







          Yes, the Web is full of tales of how awful lead-free solder is, from
          unknown hazards (compared to the known hazards of lead), to high melting
          point and thus unreliable joints, to growing whiskers. Lead content
          solder (even "audiophile" brands like TRT and WBT) is still available in
          the US and I've been using that for my vintage speaker projects. See,
          for example, Parts Express:



          http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=093-586



          The melting temperature of this WBT leaded solder is a full 100 degrees
          F lower than the lead-free stuff and very quickly flows exactly where
          you want it to go with minimal effort.

          >>> "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> 7/6/2010 4:50 PM >>>
          Hi Tom

          This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are
          just
          not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders
          is
          exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they
          are
          not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat
          the
          first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own
          goal.

          Richard


          -----Original Message-----
          From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
          Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
          To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables

          . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is
          now
          offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will
          soon
          offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:

          http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm

          While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into
          if
          you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated
          pair
          of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.

          As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
          unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
          Caig's
          Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily
          used
          the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was
          these
          cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
          merry-go-round.
          Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better,
          than any
          of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so
          much
          easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and
          thus
          terminate).

          I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way
          for
          bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
          Blue
          Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
          12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .

          Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
          visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green
          look
          untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever
          do
          get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable
          and
          expose fresh clean copper.

          Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
          arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved,
          the
          more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen
          to
          think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly
          better
          sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
          termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
          what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
          blind-tested this.

          But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
          accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
          speaker
          cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
          clamping
          large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands
          can
          easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate
          only 16-
          or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in
          many
          surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic
          reasons
          you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
          heavy-gauge
          speaker wires.

          This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us
          another
          option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
          benefit
          as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past
          are the
          mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter
          to the
          cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock
          very
          tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or
          smaller
          speaker cables.

          Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way
          to
          used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit
          with
          the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the
          binding
          post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut
          on
          the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this
          is
          done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
          eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving
          knurled nut
          and the post shaft.





          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links





          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • jeff
          As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching into the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to do with the
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 7, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching into the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to do with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect an individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when the purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting in their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.

            jeff stake


            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Tom
            >
            > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are just
            > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders is
            > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they are
            > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat the
            > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.
            >
            > Richard
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
            > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
            > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
            >
            > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is now
            > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will soon
            > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
            >
            > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
            >
            > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into if
            > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated pair
            > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
            >
            > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
            > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in Caig's
            > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily used
            > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was these
            > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire merry-go-round.
            > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than any
            > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so much
            > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus
            > terminate).
            >
            > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for
            > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from Blue
            > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
            > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
            >
            > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
            > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green look
            > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever do
            > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable and
            > expose fresh clean copper.
            >
            > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
            > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved, the
            > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen to
            > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly better
            > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
            > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
            > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
            > blind-tested this.
            >
            > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
            > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger speaker
            > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly clamping
            > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands can
            > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate only 16-
            > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in many
            > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic reasons
            > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use heavy-gauge
            > speaker wires.
            >
            > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us another
            > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic benefit
            > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are the
            > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter to the
            > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock very
            > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller
            > speaker cables.
            >
            > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way to
            > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit with
            > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding
            > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut on
            > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this is
            > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
            > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled nut
            > and the post shaft.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
          • Richard Tuck
            Hi Jeff The term nanny state is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal records check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with children
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 9, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Jeff

              The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal records
              check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with children
              making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.
              Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and will
              take steps to remove it.

              In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let their
              children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported. At
              the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market
              middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity does
              encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the almost
              mandatory 4 x 4.

              I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building
              camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.

              Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car
              batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that the
              lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low rent
              facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from
              electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS gear
              is thrown away.

              Richard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of jeff
              Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26
              To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables

              As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching into
              the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to do
              with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect an
              individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when the
              purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting in
              their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more
              appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.

              jeff stake


              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Tom
              >
              > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are just
              > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders is
              > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they
              are
              > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat the
              > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.
              >
              > Richard
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
              > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
              > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
              > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
              >
              > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is
              now
              > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will soon
              > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
              >
              > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
              >
              > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into if
              > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated pair
              > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
              >
              > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
              > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
              Caig's
              > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily used
              > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was these
              > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
              merry-go-round.
              > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than
              any
              > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so much
              > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus
              > terminate).
              >
              > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for
              > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
              Blue
              > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
              > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
              >
              > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
              > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green look
              > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever do
              > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable
              and
              > expose fresh clean copper.
              >
              > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
              > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved, the
              > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen to
              > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly better
              > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
              > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
              > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
              > blind-tested this.
              >
              > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
              > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
              speaker
              > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
              clamping
              > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands
              can
              > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate only
              16-
              > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in
              many
              > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic reasons
              > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
              heavy-gauge
              > speaker wires.
              >
              > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us another
              > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
              benefit
              > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are
              the
              > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter to
              the
              > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock
              very
              > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller
              > speaker cables.
              >
              > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way to
              > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit with
              > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding
              > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut on
              > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this is
              > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
              > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled
              nut
              > and the post shaft.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >




              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Fred
              Not forgetting that since 1973 the UK has been part of the European Community and (for better or worse) our Nanny State has been subject to directives of
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 9, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Not forgetting that since 1973 the UK has been part of the "European Community" and (for better or worse) our "Nanny State" has been subject to directives of Brussels.

                Beyond hazards of lead people know less about such as Beryllium Oxide, Cadmium, Antimony and the chemically horrific cocktail of toxicity in electronic scrap.

                Therefore good that nanny state can guide us on what and how to dispose of for recycling (responsibly). Sadly, much actually ends up in "low rent" places in Third World countries for manual recycling by the crudest life shortening methods.
                That which has value then sent onward to manufacturers to incorporate in new products boasting recycled content and claimed green.
                Which nanny state encourages us to buy (and recycle responsibly).

                Fred.




                --- On Fri, 9/7/10, Richard Tuck <rtuck@...> wrote:

                From: Richard Tuck <rtuck@...>
                Subject: RE: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, 9 July, 2010, 13:25



                Hi Jeff


                The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal records

                check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with children

                making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.

                Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and will

                take steps to remove it.



                In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let their

                children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported. At

                the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market

                middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity does

                encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the almost

                mandatory 4 x 4.



                I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building

                camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.



                Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car

                batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that the

                lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low rent

                facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from

                electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS gear

                is thrown away.



                Richard



                -----Original Message-----

                From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]

                On Behalf Of jeff

                Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26

                To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com

                Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables



                As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching into

                the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to do

                with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect an

                individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when the

                purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting in

                their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more

                appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.



                jeff stake



                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:

                >

                > Hi Tom

                >

                > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are just

                > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders is

                > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they

                are

                > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat the

                > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.

                >

                > Richard

                >

                >

                > -----Original Message-----

                > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com

                [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]

                > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin

                > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02

                > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com

                > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables

                >

                > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is

                now

                > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will soon

                > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:

                >

                > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm

                >

                > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into if

                > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated pair

                > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.

                >

                > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using

                > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in

                Caig's

                > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily used

                > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was these

                > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire

                merry-go-round.

                > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than

                any

                > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so much

                > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus

                > terminate).

                >

                > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for

                > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from

                Blue

                > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor

                > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .

                >

                > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of

                > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green look

                > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever do

                > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable

                and

                > expose fresh clean copper.

                >

                > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,

                > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved, the

                > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen to

                > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly better

                > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of

                > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,

                > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not

                > blind-tested this.

                >

                > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both

                > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger

                speaker

                > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly

                clamping

                > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands

                can

                > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate only

                16-

                > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in

                many

                > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic reasons

                > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use

                heavy-gauge

                > speaker wires.

                >

                > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us another

                > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic

                benefit

                > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are

                the

                > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter to

                the

                > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock

                very

                > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller

                > speaker cables.

                >

                > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way to

                > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit with

                > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding

                > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut on

                > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this is

                > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and

                > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled

                nut

                > and the post shaft.

                >
              • jeff
                Hi Richard, That is interesting. Over here, in the USA, I hear nanny state almost always used in the context of right-wing criticism of government
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 10, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Richard,

                  That is interesting. Over here, in the USA, I hear "nanny state" almost always used in the context of right-wing criticism of government regulations designed to protect people from their own stupidity, like requirements to wear seatbelts when in cars or helmets when on motorcycles, i.e., as a nanny might protect children from themselves.

                  I can see that "nanny state" might also be used to refer to state actions designed to protect children from their parents, although I'm a bit surprised that actual nannies actually do much to intercede between parents and children. We have a lot less experience with nannies over here, most of my impressions come from Mary Poppins, so what they actually do is something of a mystery to me.

                  I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and murderers for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?

                  I agree that regulations, like all human behaviors, are sometimes counterproductive, whether they come from the nanny state or the old-fashioned state. One of our laws that seems to have created more harm than good is the bi-partisan campaign reform passed a few years ago. Those who want to influence elections still spend on campaigns, but now they do so through organizations that are much less responsible than the politicians. Another of our laws that has gotten way out of control is the law regulating social science studies. Educators at some universities have to get institutional approval to interview their own children.

                  I remember the freedom of the old days as well. I was often gone from breakfast to dinner, without any itinerary. And once my parents sent me alone on a 180-mile bus trip, with bus changes, when I was no older than 9.

                  best
                  jeff



                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Jeff
                  >
                  > The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal records
                  > check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with children
                  > making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.
                  > Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and will
                  > take steps to remove it.
                  >
                  > In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let their
                  > children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported. At
                  > the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market
                  > middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity does
                  > encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the almost
                  > mandatory 4 x 4.
                  >
                  > I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building
                  > camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.
                  >
                  > Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car
                  > batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that the
                  > lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low rent
                  > facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from
                  > electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS gear
                  > is thrown away.
                  >
                  > Richard
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On Behalf Of jeff
                  > Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26
                  > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                  >
                  > As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching into
                  > the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to do
                  > with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect an
                  > individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when the
                  > purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting in
                  > their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more
                  > appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.
                  >
                  > jeff stake
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Tom
                  > >
                  > > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are just
                  > > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders is
                  > > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they
                  > are
                  > > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat the
                  > > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.
                  > >
                  > > Richard
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                  > > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
                  > > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
                  > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
                  > >
                  > > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is
                  > now
                  > > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will soon
                  > > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
                  > >
                  > > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into if
                  > > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated pair
                  > > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
                  > >
                  > > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
                  > > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
                  > Caig's
                  > > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily used
                  > > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was these
                  > > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
                  > merry-go-round.
                  > > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than
                  > any
                  > > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so much
                  > > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus
                  > > terminate).
                  > >
                  > > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for
                  > > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
                  > Blue
                  > > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
                  > > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
                  > >
                  > > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
                  > > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green look
                  > > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever do
                  > > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable
                  > and
                  > > expose fresh clean copper.
                  > >
                  > > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
                  > > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved, the
                  > > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen to
                  > > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly better
                  > > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
                  > > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
                  > > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
                  > > blind-tested this.
                  > >
                  > > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
                  > > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
                  > speaker
                  > > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
                  > clamping
                  > > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands
                  > can
                  > > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate only
                  > 16-
                  > > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in
                  > many
                  > > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic reasons
                  > > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
                  > heavy-gauge
                  > > speaker wires.
                  > >
                  > > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us another
                  > > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
                  > benefit
                  > > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are
                  > the
                  > > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter to
                  > the
                  > > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock
                  > very
                  > > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller
                  > > speaker cables.
                  > >
                  > > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way to
                  > > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit with
                  > > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding
                  > > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut on
                  > > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this is
                  > > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
                  > > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled
                  > nut
                  > > and the post shaft.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                • Richard Tuck
                  Hi Jeff RoHS is a classical example of a nanny law designed to keep toxic materials out of the environment but, after all the exemptions, what was left does
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 11, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Jeff

                    RoHS is a classical example of a nanny law designed to keep toxic materials
                    out of the environment but, after all the exemptions, what was left does
                    little if anything for Joe Public but caused enormous expense for the poor
                    manufacturers who had to comply. Lead free technology is a whole system of
                    components, PCBs all designed to work exclusively with lead free solder,
                    it's not just a case of changing the solder. Converting to lead free
                    technology is very expensive and with all the exemptions I would expect the
                    environmental benefit to be miniscule.

                    Another is the case of compact fluorescent lamps which we are all being
                    encouraged to use to reduce CO2 emissions but these only work with a small
                    amount of toxic mercury in them - so RoHS limits the amount but makes them
                    exempt.

                    * I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                    role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and murderers
                    for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                    stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?*

                    I would not think it would, they are just old plain laws.

                    Richard

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of jeff
                    Sent: 10 July 2010 22:47
                    To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables

                    Hi Richard,

                    That is interesting. Over here, in the USA, I hear "nanny state" almost
                    always used in the context of right-wing criticism of government regulations
                    designed to protect people from their own stupidity, like requirements to
                    wear seatbelts when in cars or helmets when on motorcycles, i.e., as a nanny
                    might protect children from themselves.

                    I can see that "nanny state" might also be used to refer to state actions
                    designed to protect children from their parents, although I'm a bit
                    surprised that actual nannies actually do much to intercede between parents
                    and children. We have a lot less experience with nannies over here, most of
                    my impressions come from Mary Poppins, so what they actually do is something
                    of a mystery to me.

                    I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                    role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and murderers
                    for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                    stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?

                    I agree that regulations, like all human behaviors, are sometimes
                    counterproductive, whether they come from the nanny state or the
                    old-fashioned state. One of our laws that seems to have created more harm
                    than good is the bi-partisan campaign reform passed a few years ago. Those
                    who want to influence elections still spend on campaigns, but now they do so
                    through organizations that are much less responsible than the politicians.
                    Another of our laws that has gotten way out of control is the law regulating
                    social science studies. Educators at some universities have to get
                    institutional approval to interview their own children.

                    I remember the freedom of the old days as well. I was often gone from
                    breakfast to dinner, without any itinerary. And once my parents sent me
                    alone on a 180-mile bus trip, with bus changes, when I was no older than 9.

                    best
                    jeff



                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Jeff
                    >
                    > The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal records
                    > check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with
                    children
                    > making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.
                    > Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and
                    will
                    > take steps to remove it.
                    >
                    > In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let
                    their
                    > children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported. At
                    > the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market
                    > middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity
                    does
                    > encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the
                    almost
                    > mandatory 4 x 4.
                    >
                    > I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building
                    > camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.
                    >
                    > Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car
                    > batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that the
                    > lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low rent
                    > facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from
                    > electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS gear
                    > is thrown away.
                    >
                    > Richard
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of jeff
                    > Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26
                    > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                    >
                    > As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching into
                    > the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to
                    do
                    > with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect
                    an
                    > individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when
                    the
                    > purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting
                    in
                    > their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more
                    > appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.
                    >
                    > jeff stake
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Tom
                    > >
                    > > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are
                    just
                    > > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders
                    is
                    > > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they
                    > are
                    > > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat
                    the
                    > > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.
                    > >
                    > > Richard
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                    > > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
                    > > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
                    > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
                    > >
                    > > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is
                    > now
                    > > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will
                    soon
                    > > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
                    > >
                    > > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
                    > >
                    > > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into
                    if
                    > > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated
                    pair
                    > > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
                    > >
                    > > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
                    > > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
                    > Caig's
                    > > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily
                    used
                    > > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was
                    these
                    > > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
                    > merry-go-round.
                    > > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than
                    > any
                    > > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so
                    much
                    > > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus
                    > > terminate).
                    > >
                    > > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for
                    > > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
                    > Blue
                    > > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
                    > > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
                    > >
                    > > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
                    > > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green
                    look
                    > > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever
                    do
                    > > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable
                    > and
                    > > expose fresh clean copper.
                    > >
                    > > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
                    > > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved,
                    the
                    > > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen to
                    > > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly
                    better
                    > > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
                    > > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
                    > > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
                    > > blind-tested this.
                    > >
                    > > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
                    > > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
                    > speaker
                    > > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
                    > clamping
                    > > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands
                    > can
                    > > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate only
                    > 16-
                    > > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in
                    > many
                    > > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic
                    reasons
                    > > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
                    > heavy-gauge
                    > > speaker wires.
                    > >
                    > > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us
                    another
                    > > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
                    > benefit
                    > > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are
                    > the
                    > > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter to
                    > the
                    > > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock
                    > very
                    > > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller
                    > > speaker cables.
                    > >
                    > > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way
                    to
                    > > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit
                    with
                    > > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding
                    > > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut
                    on
                    > > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this
                    is
                    > > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
                    > > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled
                    > nut
                    > > and the post shaft.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >




                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • jeff
                    Hi Richard, Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink and the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the old
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 11, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Richard,

                      Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink and the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the old fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned state become a nanny state when it protects a group instead of an individual? I.e., when the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply and the state punishes him for putting dangerous chemicals in the water supply, is that the nanny state?

                      I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or another. I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny state" over your way.

                      jeff


                      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Jeff
                      >
                      > RoHS is a classical example of a nanny law designed to keep toxic materials
                      > out of the environment but, after all the exemptions, what was left does
                      > little if anything for Joe Public but caused enormous expense for the poor
                      > manufacturers who had to comply. Lead free technology is a whole system of
                      > components, PCBs all designed to work exclusively with lead free solder,
                      > it's not just a case of changing the solder. Converting to lead free
                      > technology is very expensive and with all the exemptions I would expect the
                      > environmental benefit to be miniscule.
                      >
                      > Another is the case of compact fluorescent lamps which we are all being
                      > encouraged to use to reduce CO2 emissions but these only work with a small
                      > amount of toxic mercury in them - so RoHS limits the amount but makes them
                      > exempt.
                      >
                      > * I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                      > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and murderers
                      > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                      > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?*
                      >
                      > I would not think it would, they are just old plain laws.
                      >
                      > Richard
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of jeff
                      > Sent: 10 July 2010 22:47
                      > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                      >
                      > Hi Richard,
                      >
                      > That is interesting. Over here, in the USA, I hear "nanny state" almost
                      > always used in the context of right-wing criticism of government regulations
                      > designed to protect people from their own stupidity, like requirements to
                      > wear seatbelts when in cars or helmets when on motorcycles, i.e., as a nanny
                      > might protect children from themselves.
                      >
                      > I can see that "nanny state" might also be used to refer to state actions
                      > designed to protect children from their parents, although I'm a bit
                      > surprised that actual nannies actually do much to intercede between parents
                      > and children. We have a lot less experience with nannies over here, most of
                      > my impressions come from Mary Poppins, so what they actually do is something
                      > of a mystery to me.
                      >
                      > I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                      > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and murderers
                      > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                      > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?
                      >
                      > I agree that regulations, like all human behaviors, are sometimes
                      > counterproductive, whether they come from the nanny state or the
                      > old-fashioned state. One of our laws that seems to have created more harm
                      > than good is the bi-partisan campaign reform passed a few years ago. Those
                      > who want to influence elections still spend on campaigns, but now they do so
                      > through organizations that are much less responsible than the politicians.
                      > Another of our laws that has gotten way out of control is the law regulating
                      > social science studies. Educators at some universities have to get
                      > institutional approval to interview their own children.
                      >
                      > I remember the freedom of the old days as well. I was often gone from
                      > breakfast to dinner, without any itinerary. And once my parents sent me
                      > alone on a 180-mile bus trip, with bus changes, when I was no older than 9.
                      >
                      > best
                      > jeff
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Jeff
                      > >
                      > > The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal records
                      > > check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with
                      > children
                      > > making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.
                      > > Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and
                      > will
                      > > take steps to remove it.
                      > >
                      > > In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let
                      > their
                      > > children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported. At
                      > > the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market
                      > > middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity
                      > does
                      > > encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the
                      > almost
                      > > mandatory 4 x 4.
                      > >
                      > > I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building
                      > > camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.
                      > >
                      > > Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car
                      > > batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that the
                      > > lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low rent
                      > > facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from
                      > > electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS gear
                      > > is thrown away.
                      > >
                      > > Richard
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                      > > On Behalf Of jeff
                      > > Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26
                      > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                      > >
                      > > As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching into
                      > > the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to
                      > do
                      > > with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect
                      > an
                      > > individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when
                      > the
                      > > purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting
                      > in
                      > > their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more
                      > > appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.
                      > >
                      > > jeff stake
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Tom
                      > > >
                      > > > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are
                      > just
                      > > > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free solders
                      > is
                      > > > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because they
                      > > are
                      > > > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat
                      > the
                      > > > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own goal.
                      > > >
                      > > > Richard
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                      > > > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
                      > > > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
                      > > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
                      > > >
                      > > > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans is
                      > > now
                      > > > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will
                      > soon
                      > > > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
                      > > >
                      > > > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking into
                      > if
                      > > > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated
                      > pair
                      > > > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
                      > > >
                      > > > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
                      > > > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
                      > > Caig's
                      > > > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily
                      > used
                      > > > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was
                      > these
                      > > > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
                      > > merry-go-round.
                      > > > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better, than
                      > > any
                      > > > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so
                      > much
                      > > > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and thus
                      > > > terminate).
                      > > >
                      > > > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way for
                      > > > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
                      > > Blue
                      > > > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
                      > > > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
                      > > >
                      > > > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
                      > > > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green
                      > look
                      > > > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever
                      > do
                      > > > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of cable
                      > > and
                      > > > expose fresh clean copper.
                      > > >
                      > > > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
                      > > > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved,
                      > the
                      > > > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen to
                      > > > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly
                      > better
                      > > > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
                      > > > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
                      > > > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
                      > > > blind-tested this.
                      > > >
                      > > > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
                      > > > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
                      > > speaker
                      > > > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
                      > > clamping
                      > > > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose strands
                      > > can
                      > > > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate only
                      > > 16-
                      > > > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as in
                      > > many
                      > > > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic
                      > reasons
                      > > > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
                      > > heavy-gauge
                      > > > speaker wires.
                      > > >
                      > > > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us
                      > another
                      > > > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
                      > > benefit
                      > > > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past are
                      > > the
                      > > > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter to
                      > > the
                      > > > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they lock
                      > > very
                      > > > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or smaller
                      > > > speaker cables.
                      > > >
                      > > > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior way
                      > to
                      > > > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit
                      > with
                      > > > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the binding
                      > > > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut
                      > on
                      > > > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before this
                      > is
                      > > > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
                      > > > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving knurled
                      > > nut
                      > > > and the post shaft.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                    • Mitch Smith
                      My thought is the term nanny state is one of degree. Prohibitions against putting cyanide in drinking water is a pretty well established and old fashioned
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 11, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        My thought is the term "nanny state" is one of degree. Prohibitions
                        against putting cyanide in drinking water is a pretty well established
                        and old fashioned exercise of a state's power to protect its populace.
                        On a scale of 1 to 10 in anything short of an anarchistic state, that
                        would be a 1.

                        However, what about restrictions on the sodium content of foods, or
                        banning trans fats? Are those at or near the 10 ends of the scale? At
                        what point do personal choices take a back seat to the state directing
                        minute details of people's lives for the greater good of society?

                        There's a lot of numbers in between 1 and 10 and I think different
                        people start applying the nanny label at different spots.

                        - Mitch

                        PS, I'm reading an interesting book right now titled "Seeing Like A
                        State." It details how and why very well intentioned efforts by the
                        state can go horridly wrong. Fascinating.

                        On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 02:23 +0000, jeff wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Richard,
                        >
                        > Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink
                        > and the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the
                        > old fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned
                        > state become a nanny state when it protects a group instead of an
                        > individual? I.e., when the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply
                        > and the state punishes him for putting dangerous chemicals in the
                        > water supply, is that the nanny state?
                        >
                        > I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or
                        > another. I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny state" over
                        > your way.
                        >
                        > jeff
                      • jeff
                        I agree that there are very important differences in degree, but I think there are also differences in kind. When the state protects me from you, that is the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 11, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I agree that there are very important differences in degree, but I think there are also differences in kind. When the state protects me from you, that is the old fashioned act of a state. When the state protects me from me, by a ban on cycling without a helmet or perhaps a ban on swimming in dangerous waters (or by a ban on smoking marijuana?), that is what I would call the "nanny state". I agree that even in this sort of case, the state might be trying to protect others from my stupid act. By banning my helmetless biking, the state reduces the costs to society of my injuring myself, hospital care that I do not pay for, for example. So, most if not all regulations will have consequences for those other than the regulated. But it still makes sense to me to conceptually separate attempts to stop me from harming myself from attempts to stop me from harming others.

                          Economists sometimes focus on "externalities", effects imposed on others by someone's behavior. It is well accepted that efficiency is usually served by "internalizing externalities", i.e., by making the actor pay for the costs imposed on others. And it is reasonably well accepted that, when the actor will not be able to afford to pay the costs imposed by others, the state has a role in attempting to stop the actor before he acts.

                          I have that book; I guess I should read it!

                          Jeff Stake


                          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Smith <mitch@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > My thought is the term "nanny state" is one of degree. Prohibitions
                          > against putting cyanide in drinking water is a pretty well established
                          > and old fashioned exercise of a state's power to protect its populace.
                          > On a scale of 1 to 10 in anything short of an anarchistic state, that
                          > would be a 1.
                          >
                          > However, what about restrictions on the sodium content of foods, or
                          > banning trans fats? Are those at or near the 10 ends of the scale? At
                          > what point do personal choices take a back seat to the state directing
                          > minute details of people's lives for the greater good of society?
                          >
                          > There's a lot of numbers in between 1 and 10 and I think different
                          > people start applying the nanny label at different spots.
                          >
                          > - Mitch
                          >
                          > PS, I'm reading an interesting book right now titled "Seeing Like A
                          > State." It details how and why very well intentioned efforts by the
                          > state can go horridly wrong. Fascinating.
                          >
                          > On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 02:23 +0000, jeff wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Richard,
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink
                          > > and the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the
                          > > old fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned
                          > > state become a nanny state when it protects a group instead of an
                          > > individual? I.e., when the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply
                          > > and the state punishes him for putting dangerous chemicals in the
                          > > water supply, is that the nanny state?
                          > >
                          > > I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or
                          > > another. I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny state" over
                          > > your way.
                          > >
                          > > jeff
                          >
                        • Richard Tuck
                          Hi Jeff I can tell I discussing this with a lawyer, a few examples of nanny laws for the avoidance of doubt. I trying an energy brew for my Fibromyalgia, it s
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Jeff

                            I can tell I discussing this with a lawyer, a few examples of nanny laws for
                            the avoidance of doubt.

                            I trying an energy brew for my Fibromyalgia, it's a powder and the lid has a
                            sticker that says it contains a packet of desiccant and goes on to tell you
                            not to consume the desiccant.

                            A warning on a post card sized plastic bag warning of child suffocation
                            dangers.

                            And finally that hardy perennial message on US door mirrors summarising the
                            optics of convex mirrors. Brits and, I guess, other Europeans are expected
                            to have done optics 101 at school and so need no such warning.

                            Richard



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                            On Behalf Of jeff
                            Sent: 12 July 2010 03:23
                            To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables

                            Hi Richard,

                            Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink and
                            the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the old
                            fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned state become a
                            nanny state when it protects a group instead of an individual? I.e., when
                            the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply and the state punishes him for
                            putting dangerous chemicals in the water supply, is that the nanny state?

                            I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or another.
                            I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny state" over your way.

                            jeff


                            --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Jeff
                            >
                            > RoHS is a classical example of a nanny law designed to keep toxic
                            materials
                            > out of the environment but, after all the exemptions, what was left does
                            > little if anything for Joe Public but caused enormous expense for the poor
                            > manufacturers who had to comply. Lead free technology is a whole system of
                            > components, PCBs all designed to work exclusively with lead free solder,
                            > it's not just a case of changing the solder. Converting to lead free
                            > technology is very expensive and with all the exemptions I would expect
                            the
                            > environmental benefit to be miniscule.
                            >
                            > Another is the case of compact fluorescent lamps which we are all being
                            > encouraged to use to reduce CO2 emissions but these only work with a small
                            > amount of toxic mercury in them - so RoHS limits the amount but makes them
                            > exempt.
                            >
                            > * I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                            > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and
                            murderers
                            > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                            > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?*
                            >
                            > I would not think it would, they are just old plain laws.
                            >
                            > Richard
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                            > On Behalf Of jeff
                            > Sent: 10 July 2010 22:47
                            > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                            >
                            > Hi Richard,
                            >
                            > That is interesting. Over here, in the USA, I hear "nanny state" almost
                            > always used in the context of right-wing criticism of government
                            regulations
                            > designed to protect people from their own stupidity, like requirements to
                            > wear seatbelts when in cars or helmets when on motorcycles, i.e., as a
                            nanny
                            > might protect children from themselves.
                            >
                            > I can see that "nanny state" might also be used to refer to state actions
                            > designed to protect children from their parents, although I'm a bit
                            > surprised that actual nannies actually do much to intercede between
                            parents
                            > and children. We have a lot less experience with nannies over here, most
                            of
                            > my impressions come from Mary Poppins, so what they actually do is
                            something
                            > of a mystery to me.
                            >
                            > I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                            > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and
                            murderers
                            > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                            > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?
                            >
                            > I agree that regulations, like all human behaviors, are sometimes
                            > counterproductive, whether they come from the nanny state or the
                            > old-fashioned state. One of our laws that seems to have created more harm
                            > than good is the bi-partisan campaign reform passed a few years ago. Those
                            > who want to influence elections still spend on campaigns, but now they do
                            so
                            > through organizations that are much less responsible than the politicians.
                            > Another of our laws that has gotten way out of control is the law
                            regulating
                            > social science studies. Educators at some universities have to get
                            > institutional approval to interview their own children.
                            >
                            > I remember the freedom of the old days as well. I was often gone from
                            > breakfast to dinner, without any itinerary. And once my parents sent me
                            > alone on a 180-mile bus trip, with bus changes, when I was no older than
                            9.
                            >
                            > best
                            > jeff
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Jeff
                            > >
                            > > The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal
                            records
                            > > check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with
                            > children
                            > > making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.
                            > > Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and
                            > will
                            > > take steps to remove it.
                            > >
                            > > In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let
                            > their
                            > > children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported.
                            At
                            > > the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market
                            > > middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity
                            > does
                            > > encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the
                            > almost
                            > > mandatory 4 x 4.
                            > >
                            > > I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building
                            > > camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.
                            > >
                            > > Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car
                            > > batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that
                            the
                            > > lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low
                            rent
                            > > facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from
                            > > electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS
                            gear
                            > > is thrown away.
                            > >
                            > > Richard
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                            > > On Behalf Of jeff
                            > > Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26
                            > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                            > >
                            > > As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching
                            into
                            > > the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to
                            > do
                            > > with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect
                            > an
                            > > individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when
                            > the
                            > > purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting
                            > in
                            > > their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more
                            > > appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.
                            > >
                            > > jeff stake
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Tom
                            > > >
                            > > > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are
                            > just
                            > > > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free
                            solders
                            > is
                            > > > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because
                            they
                            > > are
                            > > > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat
                            > the
                            > > > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own
                            goal.
                            > > >
                            > > > Richard
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                            > > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                            > > > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
                            > > > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
                            > > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
                            > > >
                            > > > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans
                            is
                            > > now
                            > > > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will
                            > soon
                            > > > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
                            > > >
                            > > > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
                            > > >
                            > > > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking
                            into
                            > if
                            > > > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated
                            > pair
                            > > > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
                            > > >
                            > > > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
                            > > > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
                            > > Caig's
                            > > > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily
                            > used
                            > > > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was
                            > these
                            > > > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
                            > > merry-go-round.
                            > > > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better,
                            than
                            > > any
                            > > > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so
                            > much
                            > > > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and
                            thus
                            > > > terminate).
                            > > >
                            > > > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way
                            for
                            > > > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
                            > > Blue
                            > > > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
                            > > > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
                            > > >
                            > > > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
                            > > > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green
                            > look
                            > > > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever
                            > do
                            > > > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of
                            cable
                            > > and
                            > > > expose fresh clean copper.
                            > > >
                            > > > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
                            > > > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved,
                            > the
                            > > > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen
                            to
                            > > > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly
                            > better
                            > > > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
                            > > > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
                            > > > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
                            > > > blind-tested this.
                            > > >
                            > > > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
                            > > > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
                            > > speaker
                            > > > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
                            > > clamping
                            > > > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose
                            strands
                            > > can
                            > > > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate
                            only
                            > > 16-
                            > > > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as
                            in
                            > > many
                            > > > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic
                            > reasons
                            > > > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
                            > > heavy-gauge
                            > > > speaker wires.
                            > > >
                            > > > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us
                            > another
                            > > > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
                            > > benefit
                            > > > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past
                            are
                            > > the
                            > > > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter
                            to
                            > > the
                            > > > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they
                            lock
                            > > very
                            > > > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or
                            smaller
                            > > > speaker cables.
                            > > >
                            > > > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior
                            way
                            > to
                            > > > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit
                            > with
                            > > > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the
                            binding
                            > > > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut
                            > on
                            > > > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before
                            this
                            > is
                            > > > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
                            > > > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving
                            knurled
                            > > nut
                            > > > and the post shaft.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >




                            ------------------------------------

                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Charlie Daniell
                            If you forgot to put on your helmet because you were stoned out of your mind, I think the nanny state should try to keep you off the roads while I am on them.
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 12, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment

                              If you forgot to put on your helmet because you were stoned out of your mind, I think the nanny state should try to keep you off the roads while I am on them.

                               

                              The people who are on organ transplant waiting lists might not mind so much as I do, however.

                               

                              Charlie

                               

                              From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jeff
                              Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 1:03 AM
                              To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Nanny State (was: Something New in Speaker Cables)

                               

                               

                              I agree that there are very important differences in degree, but I think there are also differences in kind. When the state protects me from you, that is the old fashioned act of a state. When the state protects me from me, by a ban on cycling without a helmet or perhaps a ban on swimming in dangerous waters (or by a ban on smoking marijuana?), that is what I would call the "nanny state". I agree that even in this sort of case, the state might be trying to protect others from my stupid act. By banning my helmetless biking, the state reduces the costs to society of my injuring myself, hospital care that I do not pay for, for example. So, most if not all regulations will have consequences for those other than the regulated. But it still makes sense to me to conceptually separate attempts to stop me from harming myself from attempts to stop me from harming others.

                              Economists sometimes focus on "externalities", effects imposed on others by someone's behavior. It is well accepted that efficiency is usually served by "internalizing externalities", i.e., by making the actor pay for the costs imposed on others. And it is reasonably well accepted that, when the actor will not be able to afford to pay the costs imposed by others, the state has a role in attempting to stop the actor before he acts.

                              I have that book; I guess I should read it!

                              Jeff Stake

                              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Smith <mitch@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > My thought is the term "nanny state" is one of degree.
                              Prohibitions
                              > against putting cyanide in drinking water is a pretty well established
                              > and old fashioned exercise of a state's power to protect its populace.
                              > On a scale of 1 to 10 in anything short of an anarchistic state, that
                              > would be a 1.
                              >
                              > However, what about restrictions on the sodium content of foods, or
                              > banning trans fats? Are those at or near the 10 ends of the scale? At
                              > what point do personal choices take a back seat to the state directing
                              > minute details of people's lives for the greater good of society?
                              >
                              > There's a lot of numbers in between 1 and 10 and I think different
                              > people start applying the nanny label at different spots.
                              >
                              > - Mitch
                              >
                              > PS, I'm reading an interesting book right now titled "Seeing Like A
                              > State." It details how and why very well intentioned efforts by the
                              > state can go horridly wrong. Fascinating.
                              >
                              > On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 02:23 +0000, jeff wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Richard,
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my
                              drink
                              > > and the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the
                              > > old fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned
                              > > state become a nanny state when it protects a group instead of an
                              > > individual? I.e., when the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply
                              > > and the state punishes him for putting dangerous chemicals in the
                              > > water supply, is that the nanny state?
                              > >
                              > > I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or
                              > > another. I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny
                              state" over
                              > > your way.
                              > >
                              > > jeff
                              >

                            • jeff
                              Hi Richard. Those are interesting examples for two reasons. 1) At the level of the consumer, they are merely warnings and not prohibitions. 2) They might have
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 12, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Richard.
                                Those are interesting examples for two reasons. 1) At the level of the consumer, they are merely warnings and not prohibitions. 2) They might have resulted from private decisions.
                                Thanks,
                                jeff

                                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Jeff
                                >
                                > I can tell I discussing this with a lawyer, a few examples of nanny laws for
                                > the avoidance of doubt.
                                >
                                > I trying an energy brew for my Fibromyalgia, it's a powder and the lid has a
                                > sticker that says it contains a packet of desiccant and goes on to tell you
                                > not to consume the desiccant.
                                >
                                > A warning on a post card sized plastic bag warning of child suffocation
                                > dangers.
                                >
                                > And finally that hardy perennial message on US door mirrors summarising the
                                > optics of convex mirrors. Brits and, I guess, other Europeans are expected
                                > to have done optics 101 at school and so need no such warning.
                                >
                                > Richard
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                > On Behalf Of jeff
                                > Sent: 12 July 2010 03:23
                                > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                                >
                                > Hi Richard,
                                >
                                > Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink and
                                > the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the old
                                > fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned state become a
                                > nanny state when it protects a group instead of an individual? I.e., when
                                > the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply and the state punishes him for
                                > putting dangerous chemicals in the water supply, is that the nanny state?
                                >
                                > I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or another.
                                > I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny state" over your way.
                                >
                                > jeff
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Jeff
                                > >
                                > > RoHS is a classical example of a nanny law designed to keep toxic
                                > materials
                                > > out of the environment but, after all the exemptions, what was left does
                                > > little if anything for Joe Public but caused enormous expense for the poor
                                > > manufacturers who had to comply. Lead free technology is a whole system of
                                > > components, PCBs all designed to work exclusively with lead free solder,
                                > > it's not just a case of changing the solder. Converting to lead free
                                > > technology is very expensive and with all the exemptions I would expect
                                > the
                                > > environmental benefit to be miniscule.
                                > >
                                > > Another is the case of compact fluorescent lamps which we are all being
                                > > encouraged to use to reduce CO2 emissions but these only work with a small
                                > > amount of toxic mercury in them - so RoHS limits the amount but makes them
                                > > exempt.
                                > >
                                > > * I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                                > > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and
                                > murderers
                                > > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                                > > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?*
                                > >
                                > > I would not think it would, they are just old plain laws.
                                > >
                                > > Richard
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                > > On Behalf Of jeff
                                > > Sent: 10 July 2010 22:47
                                > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                                > >
                                > > Hi Richard,
                                > >
                                > > That is interesting. Over here, in the USA, I hear "nanny state" almost
                                > > always used in the context of right-wing criticism of government
                                > regulations
                                > > designed to protect people from their own stupidity, like requirements to
                                > > wear seatbelts when in cars or helmets when on motorcycles, i.e., as a
                                > nanny
                                > > might protect children from themselves.
                                > >
                                > > I can see that "nanny state" might also be used to refer to state actions
                                > > designed to protect children from their parents, although I'm a bit
                                > > surprised that actual nannies actually do much to intercede between
                                > parents
                                > > and children. We have a lot less experience with nannies over here, most
                                > of
                                > > my impressions come from Mary Poppins, so what they actually do is
                                > something
                                > > of a mystery to me.
                                > >
                                > > I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                                > > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and
                                > murderers
                                > > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                                > > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?
                                > >
                                > > I agree that regulations, like all human behaviors, are sometimes
                                > > counterproductive, whether they come from the nanny state or the
                                > > old-fashioned state. One of our laws that seems to have created more harm
                                > > than good is the bi-partisan campaign reform passed a few years ago. Those
                                > > who want to influence elections still spend on campaigns, but now they do
                                > so
                                > > through organizations that are much less responsible than the politicians.
                                > > Another of our laws that has gotten way out of control is the law
                                > regulating
                                > > social science studies. Educators at some universities have to get
                                > > institutional approval to interview their own children.
                                > >
                                > > I remember the freedom of the old days as well. I was often gone from
                                > > breakfast to dinner, without any itinerary. And once my parents sent me
                                > > alone on a 180-mile bus trip, with bus changes, when I was no older than
                                > 9.
                                > >
                                > > best
                                > > jeff
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hi Jeff
                                > > >
                                > > > The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal
                                > records
                                > > > check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with
                                > > children
                                > > > making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.
                                > > > Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and
                                > > will
                                > > > take steps to remove it.
                                > > >
                                > > > In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let
                                > > their
                                > > > children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported.
                                > At
                                > > > the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market
                                > > > middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity
                                > > does
                                > > > encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the
                                > > almost
                                > > > mandatory 4 x 4.
                                > > >
                                > > > I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building
                                > > > camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.
                                > > >
                                > > > Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car
                                > > > batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that
                                > the
                                > > > lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low
                                > rent
                                > > > facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from
                                > > > electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS
                                > gear
                                > > > is thrown away.
                                > > >
                                > > > Richard
                                > > >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                > > > On Behalf Of jeff
                                > > > Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26
                                > > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                                > > >
                                > > > As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching
                                > into
                                > > > the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to
                                > > do
                                > > > with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect
                                > > an
                                > > > individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when
                                > > the
                                > > > purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting
                                > > in
                                > > > their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more
                                > > > appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.
                                > > >
                                > > > jeff stake
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hi Tom
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are
                                > > just
                                > > > > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free
                                > solders
                                > > is
                                > > > > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because
                                > they
                                > > > are
                                > > > > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat
                                > > the
                                > > > > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own
                                > goal.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Richard
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                > > > > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
                                > > > > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
                                > > > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
                                > > > >
                                > > > > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans
                                > is
                                > > > now
                                > > > > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will
                                > > soon
                                > > > > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
                                > > > >
                                > > > > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking
                                > into
                                > > if
                                > > > > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated
                                > > pair
                                > > > > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
                                > > > > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
                                > > > Caig's
                                > > > > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily
                                > > used
                                > > > > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was
                                > > these
                                > > > > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
                                > > > merry-go-round.
                                > > > > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better,
                                > than
                                > > > any
                                > > > > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so
                                > > much
                                > > > > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and
                                > thus
                                > > > > terminate).
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way
                                > for
                                > > > > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
                                > > > Blue
                                > > > > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
                                > > > > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
                                > > > > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green
                                > > look
                                > > > > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever
                                > > do
                                > > > > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of
                                > cable
                                > > > and
                                > > > > expose fresh clean copper.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
                                > > > > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved,
                                > > the
                                > > > > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen
                                > to
                                > > > > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly
                                > > better
                                > > > > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
                                > > > > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
                                > > > > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
                                > > > > blind-tested this.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
                                > > > > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
                                > > > speaker
                                > > > > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
                                > > > clamping
                                > > > > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose
                                > strands
                                > > > can
                                > > > > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate
                                > only
                                > > > 16-
                                > > > > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as
                                > in
                                > > > many
                                > > > > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic
                                > > reasons
                                > > > > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
                                > > > heavy-gauge
                                > > > > speaker wires.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us
                                > > another
                                > > > > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
                                > > > benefit
                                > > > > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past
                                > are
                                > > > the
                                > > > > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter
                                > to
                                > > > the
                                > > > > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they
                                > lock
                                > > > very
                                > > > > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or
                                > smaller
                                > > > > speaker cables.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior
                                > way
                                > > to
                                > > > > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit
                                > > with
                                > > > > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the
                                > binding
                                > > > > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut
                                > > on
                                > > > > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before
                                > this
                                > > is
                                > > > > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
                                > > > > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving
                                > knurled
                                > > > nut
                                > > > > and the post shaft.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ------------------------------------
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ------------------------------------
                                > > >
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                              • jeff
                                Good point!
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 12, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Good point!

                                  --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Daniell" <danvetc@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > If you forgot to put on your helmet because you were stoned out of your
                                  > mind, I think the nanny state should try to keep you off the roads while I
                                  > am on them.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The people who are on organ transplant waiting lists might not mind so much
                                  > as I do, however.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Charlie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                  > On Behalf Of jeff
                                  > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 1:03 AM
                                  > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Nanny State (was: Something New in Speaker
                                  > Cables)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I agree that there are very important differences in degree, but I think
                                  > there are also differences in kind. When the state protects me from you,
                                  > that is the old fashioned act of a state. When the state protects me from
                                  > me, by a ban on cycling without a helmet or perhaps a ban on swimming in
                                  > dangerous waters (or by a ban on smoking marijuana?), that is what I would
                                  > call the "nanny state". I agree that even in this sort of case, the state
                                  > might be trying to protect others from my stupid act. By banning my
                                  > helmetless biking, the state reduces the costs to society of my injuring
                                  > myself, hospital care that I do not pay for, for example. So, most if not
                                  > all regulations will have consequences for those other than the regulated.
                                  > But it still makes sense to me to conceptually separate attempts to stop me
                                  > from harming myself from attempts to stop me from harming others.
                                  >
                                  > Economists sometimes focus on "externalities", effects imposed on others by
                                  > someone's behavior. It is well accepted that efficiency is usually served by
                                  > "internalizing externalities", i.e., by making the actor pay for the costs
                                  > imposed on others. And it is reasonably well accepted that, when the actor
                                  > will not be able to afford to pay the costs imposed by others, the state has
                                  > a role in attempting to stop the actor before he acts.
                                  >
                                  > I have that book; I guess I should read it!
                                  >
                                  > Jeff Stake
                                  >
                                  > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:regsaudioforum%40yahoogroups.com> , Mitch Smith <mitch@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > My thought is the term "nanny state" is one of degree. Prohibitions
                                  > > against putting cyanide in drinking water is a pretty well established
                                  > > and old fashioned exercise of a state's power to protect its populace.
                                  > > On a scale of 1 to 10 in anything short of an anarchistic state, that
                                  > > would be a 1.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, what about restrictions on the sodium content of foods, or
                                  > > banning trans fats? Are those at or near the 10 ends of the scale? At
                                  > > what point do personal choices take a back seat to the state directing
                                  > > minute details of people's lives for the greater good of society?
                                  > >
                                  > > There's a lot of numbers in between 1 and 10 and I think different
                                  > > people start applying the nanny label at different spots.
                                  > >
                                  > > - Mitch
                                  > >
                                  > > PS, I'm reading an interesting book right now titled "Seeing Like A
                                  > > State." It details how and why very well intentioned efforts by the
                                  > > state can go horridly wrong. Fascinating.
                                  > >
                                  > > On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 02:23 +0000, jeff wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi Richard,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink
                                  > > > and the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the
                                  > > > old fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned
                                  > > > state become a nanny state when it protects a group instead of an
                                  > > > individual? I.e., when the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply
                                  > > > and the state punishes him for putting dangerous chemicals in the
                                  > > > water supply, is that the nanny state?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or
                                  > > > another. I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny state" over
                                  > > > your way.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > jeff
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Fred
                                  The mirror warning would exemplify how the obvious can be so obvious as to be ignored. Accidents can have incredible causes and a warning should be a guide to
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 14, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The mirror warning would exemplify how the obvious can be so obvious as to be ignored. Accidents can have incredible causes and a warning should be a guide to those at all levels of understanding.

                                    Back in the late 1960s I spent a year on a ship that regularly took on stores in Japan. At every meal we scattered our food with great quantities of what was accepted to be a mild and pleasant tasting Japanese form of salt (but with long shiny white crystals). The Packaging in Kanji only stated "Aji No Moto" in "English" and it was not until years later that I learned this was the manufacturer's name and what we were so fond of was Monosodium Glutimate.

                                    At least it wasn't Dessicant!

                                    :-)

                                    Fred.



                                    --- On Mon, 12/7/10, jeff <jeffstakehifi@...> wrote:


                                    From: jeff <jeffstakehifi@...>
                                    Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                                    To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Monday, 12 July, 2010, 13:35


                                     



                                    Hi Richard.
                                    Those are interesting examples for two reasons. 1) At the level of the consumer, they are merely warnings and not prohibitions. 2) They might have resulted from private decisions.
                                    Thanks,
                                    jeff

                                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Jeff
                                    >
                                    > I can tell I discussing this with a lawyer, a few examples of nanny laws for
                                    > the avoidance of doubt.
                                    >
                                    > I trying an energy brew for my Fibromyalgia, it's a powder and the lid has a
                                    > sticker that says it contains a packet of desiccant and goes on to tell you
                                    > not to consume the desiccant.
                                    >
                                    > A warning on a post card sized plastic bag warning of child suffocation
                                    > dangers.
                                    >
                                    > And finally that hardy perennial message on US door mirrors summarising the
                                    > optics of convex mirrors. Brits and, I guess, other Europeans are expected
                                    > to have done optics 101 at school and so need no such warning.
                                    >
                                    > Richard
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                    > On Behalf Of jeff
                                    > Sent: 12 July 2010 03:23
                                    > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                                    >
                                    > Hi Richard,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for the reply. So, if the perpetrator puts cynanide in my drink and
                                    > the state punishes him (even if I do not drink it), that is the old
                                    > fashioned state. In the English usage, does the old fashioned state become a
                                    > nanny state when it protects a group instead of an individual? I.e., when
                                    > the same guy puts cyanide in the water supply and the state punishes him for
                                    > putting dangerous chemicals in the water supply, is that the nanny state?
                                    >
                                    > I do not know enough about RoHS to be arguing about it, one way or another.
                                    > I'm just curious about the use of the term "nanny state" over your way.
                                    >
                                    > jeff
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Jeff
                                    > >
                                    > > RoHS is a classical example of a nanny law designed to keep toxic
                                    > materials
                                    > > out of the environment but, after all the exemptions, what was left does
                                    > > little if anything for Joe Public but caused enormous expense for the poor
                                    > > manufacturers who had to comply. Lead free technology is a whole system of
                                    > > components, PCBs all designed to work exclusively with lead free solder,
                                    > > it's not just a case of changing the solder. Converting to lead free
                                    > > technology is very expensive and with all the exemptions I would expect
                                    > the
                                    > > environmental benefit to be miniscule.
                                    > >
                                    > > Another is the case of compact fluorescent lamps which we are all being
                                    > > encouraged to use to reduce CO2 emissions but these only work with a small
                                    > > amount of toxic mercury in them - so RoHS limits the amount but makes them
                                    > > exempt.
                                    > >
                                    > > * I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                                    > > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and
                                    > murderers
                                    > > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                                    > > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?*
                                    > >
                                    > > I would not think it would, they are just old plain laws.
                                    > >
                                    > > Richard
                                    > >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                    > > On Behalf Of jeff
                                    > > Sent: 10 July 2010 22:47
                                    > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Richard,
                                    > >
                                    > > That is interesting. Over here, in the USA, I hear "nanny state" almost
                                    > > always used in the context of right-wing criticism of government
                                    > regulations
                                    > > designed to protect people from their own stupidity, like requirements to
                                    > > wear seatbelts when in cars or helmets when on motorcycles, i.e., as a
                                    > nanny
                                    > > might protect children from themselves.
                                    > >
                                    > > I can see that "nanny state" might also be used to refer to state actions
                                    > > designed to protect children from their parents, although I'm a bit
                                    > > surprised that actual nannies actually do much to intercede between
                                    > parents
                                    > > and children. We have a lot less experience with nannies over here, most
                                    > of
                                    > > my impressions come from Mary Poppins, so what they actually do is
                                    > something
                                    > > of a mystery to me.
                                    > >
                                    > > I imagine that ever since there has been a "state", it has served in the
                                    > > role of protecting people from the actions of others, thieves and
                                    > murderers
                                    > > for example. Would those laws, attempting to protect the weaker from the
                                    > > stronger, be referred to as the "nanny state" in England?
                                    > >
                                    > > I agree that regulations, like all human behaviors, are sometimes
                                    > > counterproductive, whether they come from the nanny state or the
                                    > > old-fashioned state. One of our laws that seems to have created more harm
                                    > > than good is the bi-partisan campaign reform passed a few years ago. Those
                                    > > who want to influence elections still spend on campaigns, but now they do
                                    > so
                                    > > through organizations that are much less responsible than the politicians.
                                    > > Another of our laws that has gotten way out of control is the law
                                    > regulating
                                    > > social science studies. Educators at some universities have to get
                                    > > institutional approval to interview their own children.
                                    > >
                                    > > I remember the freedom of the old days as well. I was often gone from
                                    > > breakfast to dinner, without any itinerary. And once my parents sent me
                                    > > alone on a 180-mile bus trip, with bus changes, when I was no older than
                                    > 9.
                                    > >
                                    > > best
                                    > > jeff
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi Jeff
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The term "nanny state" is in common use in the UK e.g. a criminal
                                    > records
                                    > > > check has to be done from anyone (sic) who comes into contact with
                                    > > children
                                    > > > making it onerous for parents who wish to help out pro bono in schools.
                                    > > > Fortunately, the new government has seen the stupidity of this law and
                                    > > will
                                    > > > take steps to remove it.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > In the Sunday Times the case of a school reporting two parents who let
                                    > > their
                                    > > > children, aged 8 and 5, cycle to school on the pavement was reported.
                                    > At
                                    > > > the only major road there is a crossing patrol - the area is up-market
                                    > > > middle class and poses miniscule risks to the children but the activity
                                    > > does
                                    > > > encourage self reliance. The alternative is to ferry the kids in the
                                    > > almost
                                    > > > mandatory 4 x 4.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I remember how much freedom I had to indulge in free play like building
                                    > > > camps on waste ground being away from home for many hours.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Meanwhile, back to the lead issue where most of the element is in car
                                    > > > batteries, the front face of CRTs and in roofing. Now it is said that
                                    > the
                                    > > > lead is recycled but there is so much of it, no doubt handled in low
                                    > rent
                                    > > > facilities, that escape into the environment compared to that from
                                    > > > electronics is, I guess, quite large. At the moment very little RoHS
                                    > gear
                                    > > > is thrown away.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Richard
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                    > > > On Behalf Of jeff
                                    > > > Sent: 08 July 2010 02:26
                                    > > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Something New in Speaker Cables
                                    > > >
                                    > > > As far as I can tell, the ban on lead was to reduce the lead leaching
                                    > into
                                    > > > the environment, where it can harm bystanders, people who had nothing to
                                    > > do
                                    > > > with the use of the lead. When the purpose of a regulation is to protect
                                    > > an
                                    > > > individual from himself, the phrase "nanny state" makes sense. But when
                                    > > the
                                    > > > purpose of a regulation is to protect someone from others who are acting
                                    > > in
                                    > > > their own self-interest, the phrase "regulatory state" seems more
                                    > > > appropriate. Perhaps the regulatory state has scored an own goal.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > jeff stake
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Tuck" <rtuck@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hi Tom
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > This may be the tip of the RoHS ice burg since lead-free solders are
                                    > > just
                                    > > > > not as reliable as those containing lead. The use of lead-free
                                    > solders
                                    > > is
                                    > > > > exempt in all kinds of high reliability applications, why, because
                                    > they
                                    > > > are
                                    > > > > not that easy to use and easy to get wrong. I personally smelt a rat
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > first time I tried some of the stuff-the nanny state scores an own
                                    > goal.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Richard
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > From: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > [mailto:regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com]
                                    > > > > On Behalf Of Tom Mallin
                                    > > > > Sent: 06 July 2010 21:02
                                    > > > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Something New in Speaker Cables
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > . . at least at this price level of $50 or less a cable. Blue Jeans
                                    > is
                                    > > > now
                                    > > > > offering ultrasonically welded-on locking banana connectors and will
                                    > > soon
                                    > > > > offer ultrasonically welded-on spade lugs. No solder is used. See:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > While I have no experience with these yet, they seem worth looking
                                    > into
                                    > > if
                                    > > > > you are looking for new speaker cables. A 10-foot factory-terminated
                                    > > pair
                                    > > > > of 10-gauge speakers cables will set you back about $75.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > As I've mentioned before, for the last few years, I've been using
                                    > > > > unterminated copper strand speaker wires with the bare ends soaked in
                                    > > > Caig's
                                    > > > > Deoxit Gold GX-5 spray (formerly known as ProGold). I have primarily
                                    > > used
                                    > > > > the 10-gauge gray-jacketed Belden cable sold by Blue Jeans. It was
                                    > > these
                                    > > > > cables that enabled me to get off the expensive speaker wire
                                    > > > merry-go-round.
                                    > > > > Used this way, these are sonically at least as good, if not better,
                                    > than
                                    > > > any
                                    > > > > of the high-priced spreads I used to use, and physically they are so
                                    > > much
                                    > > > > easier to use because they are flexible and very easy to strip (and
                                    > thus
                                    > > > > terminate).
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I've also recently used two other speaker cables this bare-wire way
                                    > for
                                    > > > > bi-wiring. With the Gradients 1.3 and 1.5 I used the Canare 4S11 from
                                    > > > Blue
                                    > > > > Jeans and (the sonically better I thought) Belden 1312A four-conductor
                                    > > > > 12-gauge available from http://zebracables.com/diy.html .
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Such connections seem to hold up well for more than a year in terms of
                                    > > > > visually looking clean and bright, as opposed to the rapid red/green
                                    > > look
                                    > > > > untreated copper strands rapidly acquire exposed to air. If they ever
                                    > > do
                                    > > > > get tarnished, it's a simple process to cut off an inch or two of
                                    > cable
                                    > > > and
                                    > > > > expose fresh clean copper.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Blue Jeans makes no real sonic claims for such bare-wire terminations,
                                    > > > > arguing only that, the fewer the metal-to-metal connections involved,
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > more mechanically and electrically reliable the connection. I happen
                                    > to
                                    > > > > think that eliminating spades/bananas/whatever produces a slightly
                                    > > better
                                    > > > > sound in several ways than I have been able to get with other types of
                                    > > > > termination (soldered, crimped, crimped and soldered, spade, banana,
                                    > > > > what-have-you, whether or not ProGold is also used) but I have not
                                    > > > > blind-tested this.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > But I happen to be fortunate to have amps and speakers that will both
                                    > > > > accommodate direct clamping of the bare ends of 10-gauge and larger
                                    > > > speaker
                                    > > > > cables within the post holes of the speaker binding posts. Tightly
                                    > > > clamping
                                    > > > > large wires around a post without a hole gets dicey since loose
                                    > strands
                                    > > > can
                                    > > > > easily slip out from under the clamp. Or the holes may accommodate
                                    > only
                                    > > > 16-
                                    > > > > or at most 14-gauge wires. And if your posts are close together, as
                                    > in
                                    > > > many
                                    > > > > surround-sound AVRs, to avoid electrical shorts and for ergonomic
                                    > > reasons
                                    > > > > you are basically forced to use banana plugs if you want to use
                                    > > > heavy-gauge
                                    > > > > speaker wires.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > This ultrasonic welding technique Blue Jeans is now using gives us
                                    > > another
                                    > > > > option for best mechanical/electrical integrity and perhaps a sonic
                                    > > > benefit
                                    > > > > as well. The locking bananas Blue Jeans has provided me in the past
                                    > are
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > mechanically finest of their kind I have used. If these lock tighter
                                    > to
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > cable and as tight to the binding post as the prior versions, they
                                    > lock
                                    > > > very
                                    > > > > tight indeed. These locking plugs can be used with 10-gauge or
                                    > smaller
                                    > > > > speaker cables.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Those with Harbeth speakers: be aware that a mechanically superior
                                    > way
                                    > > to
                                    > > > > used locking bananas with these speakers is to expand the plug a bit
                                    > > with
                                    > > > > the locking collar, then stick the plug through the hole in the
                                    > binding
                                    > > > > post, and finally clamp down on the expanded plug with the knurled nut
                                    > > on
                                    > > > > the binding post. All parts should be treated with ProGold before
                                    > this
                                    > > is
                                    > > > > done, of course. This way you get both a tighter grip on the plug and
                                    > > > > eliminate the mechanical/electrical interface between the moving
                                    > knurled
                                    > > > nut
                                    > > > > and the post shaft.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ------------------------------------
                                  • Tip Johnson
                                    Hi Fred, ... I have an extreme intolerance to MSG (monosodium glutamate), similar to Celiac Disease. In high enough doses, MSG can kill you (it kills brain
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 14, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Fred,

                                      > Back in the late 1960s I spent a year on a ship that
                                      > regularly took on stores in Japan. At every meal we
                                      > scattered our food with great quantities of what was accepted
                                      > to be a mild and pleasant tasting Japanese form of salt (but
                                      > with long shiny white crystals). The Packaging in Kanji only
                                      > stated "Aji No Moto" in "English" and it was not until years
                                      > later that I learned this was the manufacturer's name and
                                      > what we were so fond of was Monosodium Glutimate.
                                      >
                                      > At least it wasn't Dessicant!

                                      I have an extreme intolerance to MSG (monosodium glutamate), similar to Celiac Disease. In high enough doses, MSG can kill you (it
                                      kills brain cells). It is added to all sorts of food, from soups to Peanut M&Ms ("soup to nuts") in addition to its ubiquitous use
                                      in (the USA version of) Chinese food, because it is both a flavor enhancer and a preservative. A desiccant probably would be less
                                      harmful to me than MSG ;^)

                                      Tip
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