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Re: [regsaudioforum] Re: Lyngdorf Audio Steinway Model D

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  • Fred
    I also used to enjoy the Morse series (hidden music codes quite clever too). Another vintage favourite is Rumpole of the Bailey. Your comment on delivery
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 10, 2010
      I also used to enjoy the Morse series (hidden music codes quite clever too). Another vintage favourite is Rumpole of the Bailey.

      Your comment on delivery pattern differences may reflect how we "Brits" tend to concentrate more on content, have longer attention spans, prefer cerebral to projectile slapstick, stand less close to others and speak relatively softly.

      And we do get pissed off with being called BRITS!

      :-)

      Fred.




      --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Tom Mallin <tmallin@...> wrote:

      From: Tom Mallin <tmallin@...>
      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Lyngdorf Audio Steinway Model D
      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, 10 April, 2010, 21:55


      I was talking about my den system which my wife listens/watches all the time with me, not the basement audio room system. In the basement, the wires are neatly arranged.



      The den system is used primarily for watching HD cable TV and playing DVDs/Blu-Ray disks with an Oppo BDP-83, now into a Denon AVR 4310 receiver (the HK receiver shown in this picture http://tinyurl. com/ydtwdr4

      bit the dust and the Sony DVD was discarded and replaced by the much better Oppo). The system is stereo only, not surround, and uses Sequerra Met 7.7 speakers passively crossed over at 100 Hz to a B&W Acoustitune passive subwoofer mounted in the bottom right of the cabinet, a speaker combination which is a bit excessive in the lowest octave (home theater needs that) and does not, I can assure you, have the presence-range dip which sounds so nice on music through the Harbeths. I'll put up some measurements of this system soon. The isolation effects of the squash balls seem both audible in terms of HF smoothness and openness and visible in terms of picture clarity.



      With TV, especially British TV, which we watch a lot of, you want the added articulation of flat mid-highs for sufficient clarity of dialog. British TV, as my wife and I were discussing today, seems to be recorded a lot differently from American-sourced programs. Besides the different accents, the dialog on Brit shows typically is more "submerged" in the ambient sound of the scene, and the actors do not articulate or project as carefully as they do on American shows--there is a lot more mumbling and talking almost to oneself. This common Brit dialog delivery pattern is probably more true to life, but it is surely harder to follow for American viewers. Last night we watched the pilot for the Inspector Lewis series, having (sadly) completed the Inspector Morse series last week.



      By the way, some of the newest home theater receivers, like the Denon AVR 4310 I'm now using in this den system, in addition to being able to tune AM/FM and HD AM/FM stations, can tune to thousands of internet radio stations with no Squeezebox or other external box required. The receiver receives broadband internet signals wirelessly or via ethernet cable, tuning is quick and easy, and the sound can be pretty decent from such signals. I picked this Denon when my Harmon Kardon ceased to work since it is the least expensive one I could find which has this easy internet radio feature, and also has HD radio, AND decodes HDCDs from the digital feed of the Oppo.



      >>> "Robert" <regonaudio@aol. com> 4/10/2010 1:31 PM >>>

      The isolation of speakers and turntables is a mechanical matter

      and hence has a strong likelihood of making a substantive difference.



      The effects on electronics are more subtle. However, a messy set-up

      seems to me to make it if anything more likely to have an effect than a less messy one because one of the things that keeping things from vibrating does is to keep wires from moving around so much in stray fields and keep connectors from vibrating and so on. In a way, the worse things are, the more holding them still ought to help.



      Of course we all know by now that TM is a true believer. I wonder if

      not knowing whether the squash balls were there or not would change the concept of their presence or absence being "easily revealed".



      One of the things one needs to do in life and in audio in particular

      is to keep perspective. Really, if your digital source is working right and your DAC is any good, vibration isolation of the digital source ought to do exactly nothing unless it is vibrating enough to cause bit errors(which is unlikely, unless you are say kicking it in time with the music). On the other hand keeping the wires coming out of the DAC still in principle makes things better. But as usual,

      bits are bits in a digital system that is working right.



      To each his own, but personally if I were TM, I would be worrying far more about the fact (as I recall it) that his speakers have 1k something like 3 dB above 3-5k (if I am recalling the graphs right)--or at least thinking about that more--one might like it! It surely matters a lot more than squash balls under digital sources(unless the latter are broken).



      I am not sure if DVD player refers to video or audio or what. Maybe these remarks are not directly relevant to TMs claim. But I would be interested in a report on what would happen if his wife sneaked downstairs in the middle of the night and removed the squash balls--or not--and did not say which she had done.



      REG



      PS I would like to point out that having a system better tends to make defects of things LESS audible, not more, sometimes. Distortion and noise have thresholds. If you want to hear whether a device has say 7th harmonic distortion, the thing to do is to insert in a system

      which has almost but not quite enough 7th harmonic distortion to be audible. Then if the device does, it will push one over the threshold.

      If you put the device in a system with 0 7th harmonic distortion

      than one will hear the 7th harmonic distortion of the device only if it is over threshold all by itself.



      This type of thing is always ignored by audiophiles. They think that a perfect system will reveal most clearly the problems of a component inserted in a chain. This is often not true. The situation with frequency response is different: since frequency response has +- signs, it could be that an inaccurate system could cancel an error of the component.

      Or it could add to it, making it more audible. You have no way to known.

      But things like noise and distortion tend to add only, not to cancel(pure harmonic distortion could potentially cancel if there were some kind of phase reversal).



      The truth is that a really smooth low distortion system tends to make almost everything you play on it sound good or at least better than it would on a lesser system. It is not more critical, it is less critical. The Dahlquist DQ10s(hunk of junk) for example were "revealing of source material"--almost everything sounded awful.

      This is because the speakers were lousy! Ditto the Infinity IRS Beta(rattling tinfoil). Terrible, with almost any recording and with most electronics. This is not being "revealing". It is just being bad.

      This is how the world got into tubes again. Take a bad enough speaker and you really need some electronics to soften it up!



      Just another one of audio's innumerable myths and misconceptions.



      REG



      --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mallin" <tmallin@... > wrote:

      >

      > I don't agree at all with Barry's P.S. about bad AC making the vibration isolation inaudible. In my experience, improving AC quality and vibration isolation are totally additive effects.

      >

      > Even my den system, which has a total jumble of signal and power wires routed randomly and messily all around and through feed-through holes of built-in cabinet shelving easily reveals the effects of, say, squash balls under the DVD player or cable TV box. I thus use the squash balls there, even though the only "AC treatment" is a totally ordinary Belkin Surgemaster.

      >

      > >>> "Robert" <regonaudio@ ...> 4/9/2010 10:15 PM >>>

      > This page seems to me very rational --and also correct.

      >

      > The device suggested (with the inner tube) is really effectively

      > what a Townshend Seismic Sink is--that is what is inside a Seismic

      > Sink(a bicycle inner tube actually).

      >

      > So I know it works!

      >

      > Of course Seismic Sinks are not very expensive so people may want to just buy them instead of going to the trouble to put something together.

      >

      > But anyway, it is well worthwhile to work with this.

      >

      > REG

      >

      > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, Fred <glenndriech@ > wrote:

      > >

      > > First thing this topic brought to mind was Barry Diament's ball bearing "Hip Joints" (etc)

      > > http://www.barrydia mentaudio. com/vibration. htm

      > >

      > > Rubber cups and balls took my thinks to alternatives like Sorbothane rubber shock absorbers used in shoes and hillwalking boots or those Do-nut like rubber mouldings used to attach vehicle exhausts to chassis.

      > >

      > > Then whilst diverting around YouTube (to find clips of sound energy making speakers walk)

      > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=3zoTKXXNQIU& feature=related

      > >

      > > "Non Newtonian Fluids" make me think bags of cornflour mix would be an interesting speaker support!

      > >

      > > Oh, such fun we have when ideas get set in motion!

      > >

      > > ;-)

      > >

      > > Fred.

      > >

      > >

      > > --- On Fri, 9/4/10, Robert <regonaudio@ > wrote:

      > > From: Robert <regonaudio@ >

      > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Lyngdorf Audio Steinway Model D

      > > To: regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com

      > > Date: Friday, 9 April, 2010, 15:56

      > >

      > > Glad to(suggest some things). First, yes, putting your speaker

      > >

      > > on something soft is good. This eliminates the possibility of

      > >

      > > the speaker buzzing against its support in any way.

      > >

      > > Second, it would be good to put the stand itself(if you have a stand mounted speaker) or the speaker(if you have a floor stander) on some sort of rubber supports. The idea would be to use something fairly soft so that the speaker can flop around but at a very low frequency.

      > >

      > > An ideal mounting would have the speaker rocking when the speaker is displaced angle at around 1 Hz.

      > >

      > > But almost anything that prevents high frequencies from going down into the floor is already a good start.

      > >

      > > You can buy little rubber furniture supports in hardware stores. Some of these are like little cups. These are probably too hard to be ideal, but in the little cup like ones, you could try putting a small soft rubber ball.

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > I have a nonvibrating floor(tile on earth). So I do not worry too much about transmitting lower frequencies to the floor. I just worry about not having anything which can buzz at high frequencies.

      > >

      > > But if you have a typical suspended floor(wood on plywood over joists)

      > >

      > > then it really is a good idea to try to get the floor out of the picture in the bass, as well as getting rid of high frequency buzzes.

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > If you get tired of do it yourself on this, Townshend has for sale I think some devices that "float" the speakers.

      > >

      > > http://www.townshen ( http://www.townshen / ) daudio.com/ home/index. php?option= com_content& view=article& id=55&Itemid= 83

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > I do not know what these things cost. But you can probably get a lot of the effects just by working on similar principles for yourself.

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > Audio is like morality. Good intentions are the first step!

      > >

      > > Simply forgetting rigidity as a goal is already a step in the right direction!

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > I shall write some more on this later. (Right now it is time for the dogs to go out!)

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > REG

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@ ..> wrote:

      > >

      > > >

      > >

      > > > Hi Robert

      > >

      > > >

      > >

      > > > Can you suggest some DIY solutions? I think in some of your photos there is a rug or blanket between the speakers and the wood stands. Is that what you mean by a flexible mounting?

      > >

      > > >

      > >

      > > > thx

      > >

      > > > Edward

      > >

      > > >

      > >

      > > > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert" <regonaudio@ > wrote:

      > >

      > > > >

      > >

      > > > >> Everyone ought to be doing this: putting their speakers on flexible mountings that do not transmit vibration to the floor in the higher frequencies( there has to be some coupling or the speakers would fall over, but the coupling should be flexible and non transmitting down to very low frequenices) .

      > >
    • Robert
      Well, we are not so happy with being called Yanks either. REG
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 10, 2010
        Well, we are not so happy with being called "Yanks" either.

        REG

        --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Fred <glenndriech@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I also used to enjoy the Morse series (hidden music codes quite clever too). Another vintage favourite is Rumpole of the Bailey.
        >
        > Your comment on delivery pattern differences may reflect how we "Brits" tend to concentrate more on content, have longer attention spans, prefer cerebral to projectile slapstick, stand less close to others and speak relatively softly.
        >
        > And we do get pissed off with being called BRITS!
        >
        > :-)
        >
        > Fred.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sat, 10/4/10, Tom Mallin <tmallin@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Tom Mallin <tmallin@...>
        > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Lyngdorf Audio Steinway Model D
        > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, 10 April, 2010, 21:55
        >
        >
        > I was talking about my den system which my wife listens/watches all the time with me, not the basement audio room system. In the basement, the wires are neatly arranged.
        >
        >
        >
        > The den system is used primarily for watching HD cable TV and playing DVDs/Blu-Ray disks with an Oppo BDP-83, now into a Denon AVR 4310 receiver (the HK receiver shown in this picture http://tinyurl. com/ydtwdr4
        >
        > bit the dust and the Sony DVD was discarded and replaced by the much better Oppo). The system is stereo only, not surround, and uses Sequerra Met 7.7 speakers passively crossed over at 100 Hz to a B&W Acoustitune passive subwoofer mounted in the bottom right of the cabinet, a speaker combination which is a bit excessive in the lowest octave (home theater needs that) and does not, I can assure you, have the presence-range dip which sounds so nice on music through the Harbeths. I'll put up some measurements of this system soon. The isolation effects of the squash balls seem both audible in terms of HF smoothness and openness and visible in terms of picture clarity.
        >
        >
        >
        > With TV, especially British TV, which we watch a lot of, you want the added articulation of flat mid-highs for sufficient clarity of dialog. British TV, as my wife and I were discussing today, seems to be recorded a lot differently from American-sourced programs. Besides the different accents, the dialog on Brit shows typically is more "submerged" in the ambient sound of the scene, and the actors do not articulate or project as carefully as they do on American shows--there is a lot more mumbling and talking almost to oneself. This common Brit dialog delivery pattern is probably more true to life, but it is surely harder to follow for American viewers. Last night we watched the pilot for the Inspector Lewis series, having (sadly) completed the Inspector Morse series last week.
        >
        >
        >
        > By the way, some of the newest home theater receivers, like the Denon AVR 4310 I'm now using in this den system, in addition to being able to tune AM/FM and HD AM/FM stations, can tune to thousands of internet radio stations with no Squeezebox or other external box required. The receiver receives broadband internet signals wirelessly or via ethernet cable, tuning is quick and easy, and the sound can be pretty decent from such signals. I picked this Denon when my Harmon Kardon ceased to work since it is the least expensive one I could find which has this easy internet radio feature, and also has HD radio, AND decodes HDCDs from the digital feed of the Oppo.
        >
        >
        >
        > >>> "Robert" <regonaudio@aol. com> 4/10/2010 1:31 PM >>>
        >
        > The isolation of speakers and turntables is a mechanical matter
        >
        > and hence has a strong likelihood of making a substantive difference.
        >
        >
        >
        > The effects on electronics are more subtle. However, a messy set-up
        >
        > seems to me to make it if anything more likely to have an effect than a less messy one because one of the things that keeping things from vibrating does is to keep wires from moving around so much in stray fields and keep connectors from vibrating and so on. In a way, the worse things are, the more holding them still ought to help.
        >
        >
        >
        > Of course we all know by now that TM is a true believer. I wonder if
        >
        > not knowing whether the squash balls were there or not would change the concept of their presence or absence being "easily revealed".
        >
        >
        >
        > One of the things one needs to do in life and in audio in particular
        >
        > is to keep perspective. Really, if your digital source is working right and your DAC is any good, vibration isolation of the digital source ought to do exactly nothing unless it is vibrating enough to cause bit errors(which is unlikely, unless you are say kicking it in time with the music). On the other hand keeping the wires coming out of the DAC still in principle makes things better. But as usual,
        >
        > bits are bits in a digital system that is working right.
        >
        >
        >
        > To each his own, but personally if I were TM, I would be worrying far more about the fact (as I recall it) that his speakers have 1k something like 3 dB above 3-5k (if I am recalling the graphs right)--or at least thinking about that more--one might like it! It surely matters a lot more than squash balls under digital sources(unless the latter are broken).
        >
        >
        >
        > I am not sure if DVD player refers to video or audio or what. Maybe these remarks are not directly relevant to TMs claim. But I would be interested in a report on what would happen if his wife sneaked downstairs in the middle of the night and removed the squash balls--or not--and did not say which she had done.
        >
        >
        >
        > REG
        >
        >
        >
        > PS I would like to point out that having a system better tends to make defects of things LESS audible, not more, sometimes. Distortion and noise have thresholds. If you want to hear whether a device has say 7th harmonic distortion, the thing to do is to insert in a system
        >
        > which has almost but not quite enough 7th harmonic distortion to be audible. Then if the device does, it will push one over the threshold.
        >
        > If you put the device in a system with 0 7th harmonic distortion
        >
        > than one will hear the 7th harmonic distortion of the device only if it is over threshold all by itself.
        >
        >
        >
        > This type of thing is always ignored by audiophiles. They think that a perfect system will reveal most clearly the problems of a component inserted in a chain. This is often not true. The situation with frequency response is different: since frequency response has +- signs, it could be that an inaccurate system could cancel an error of the component.
        >
        > Or it could add to it, making it more audible. You have no way to known.
        >
        > But things like noise and distortion tend to add only, not to cancel(pure harmonic distortion could potentially cancel if there were some kind of phase reversal).
        >
        >
        >
        > The truth is that a really smooth low distortion system tends to make almost everything you play on it sound good or at least better than it would on a lesser system. It is not more critical, it is less critical. The Dahlquist DQ10s(hunk of junk) for example were "revealing of source material"--almost everything sounded awful.
        >
        > This is because the speakers were lousy! Ditto the Infinity IRS Beta(rattling tinfoil). Terrible, with almost any recording and with most electronics. This is not being "revealing". It is just being bad.
        >
        > This is how the world got into tubes again. Take a bad enough speaker and you really need some electronics to soften it up!
        >
        >
        >
        > Just another one of audio's innumerable myths and misconceptions.
        >
        >
        >
        > REG
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Mallin" <tmallin@ > wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I don't agree at all with Barry's P.S. about bad AC making the vibration isolation inaudible. In my experience, improving AC quality and vibration isolation are totally additive effects.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Even my den system, which has a total jumble of signal and power wires routed randomly and messily all around and through feed-through holes of built-in cabinet shelving easily reveals the effects of, say, squash balls under the DVD player or cable TV box. I thus use the squash balls there, even though the only "AC treatment" is a totally ordinary Belkin Surgemaster.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >>> "Robert" <regonaudio@ ...> 4/9/2010 10:15 PM >>>
        >
        > > This page seems to me very rational --and also correct.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > The device suggested (with the inner tube) is really effectively
        >
        > > what a Townshend Seismic Sink is--that is what is inside a Seismic
        >
        > > Sink(a bicycle inner tube actually).
        >
        > >
        >
        > > So I know it works!
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Of course Seismic Sinks are not very expensive so people may want to just buy them instead of going to the trouble to put something together.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > But anyway, it is well worthwhile to work with this.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > REG
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, Fred <glenndriech@ > wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > First thing this topic brought to mind was Barry Diament's ball bearing "Hip Joints" (etc)
        >
        > > > http://www.barrydia mentaudio. com/vibration. htm
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Rubber cups and balls took my thinks to alternatives like Sorbothane rubber shock absorbers used in shoes and hillwalking boots or those Do-nut like rubber mouldings used to attach vehicle exhausts to chassis.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Then whilst diverting around YouTube (to find clips of sound energy making speakers walk)
        >
        > > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=3zoTKXXNQIU& feature=related
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > "Non Newtonian Fluids" make me think bags of cornflour mix would be an interesting speaker support!
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Oh, such fun we have when ideas get set in motion!
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > ;-)
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Fred.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > --- On Fri, 9/4/10, Robert <regonaudio@ > wrote:
        >
        > > > From: Robert <regonaudio@ >
        >
        > > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Lyngdorf Audio Steinway Model D
        >
        > > > To: regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com
        >
        > > > Date: Friday, 9 April, 2010, 15:56
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Glad to(suggest some things). First, yes, putting your speaker
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > on something soft is good. This eliminates the possibility of
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > the speaker buzzing against its support in any way.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Second, it would be good to put the stand itself(if you have a stand mounted speaker) or the speaker(if you have a floor stander) on some sort of rubber supports. The idea would be to use something fairly soft so that the speaker can flop around but at a very low frequency.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > An ideal mounting would have the speaker rocking when the speaker is displaced angle at around 1 Hz.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > But almost anything that prevents high frequencies from going down into the floor is already a good start.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > You can buy little rubber furniture supports in hardware stores. Some of these are like little cups. These are probably too hard to be ideal, but in the little cup like ones, you could try putting a small soft rubber ball.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > I have a nonvibrating floor(tile on earth). So I do not worry too much about transmitting lower frequencies to the floor. I just worry about not having anything which can buzz at high frequencies.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > But if you have a typical suspended floor(wood on plywood over joists)
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > then it really is a good idea to try to get the floor out of the picture in the bass, as well as getting rid of high frequency buzzes.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > If you get tired of do it yourself on this, Townshend has for sale I think some devices that "float" the speakers.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > http://www.townshen ( http://www.townshen / ) daudio.com/ home/index. php?option= com_content& view=article& id=55&Itemid= 83
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > I do not know what these things cost. But you can probably get a lot of the effects just by working on similar principles for yourself.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Audio is like morality. Good intentions are the first step!
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Simply forgetting rigidity as a goal is already a step in the right direction!
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > I shall write some more on this later. (Right now it is time for the dogs to go out!)
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > REG
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Edward" <Edward_Wu@ ..> wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > Hi Robert
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > Can you suggest some DIY solutions? I think in some of your photos there is a rug or blanket between the speakers and the wood stands. Is that what you mean by a flexible mounting?
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > thx
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > Edward
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert" <regonaudio@ > wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > >> Everyone ought to be doing this: putting their speakers on flexible mountings that do not transmit vibration to the floor in the higher frequencies( there has to be some coupling or the speakers would fall over, but the coupling should be flexible and non transmitting down to very low frequenices) .
        >
        > > >
        >
      • nedmast2@aol.com
        Ah, Rumpole of the Bailey. I ve read many of the stories and was delighted when a friend gave me his complete library of the episodes on video tape (he
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 10, 2010
          Ah, Rumpole of the Bailey.  I've read many of the stories and was delighted when a friend gave me his complete library of the episodes on video tape (he replaced them with DVDs).  Until I've seen them all, they're my after dinner entertainment.  Particularly love the guiless Claude Erskine Brown - a Wagner fanatic to outdo even Robert, perhaps.
           
          Ned
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.