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Re: Wine and Ongaku

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  • Robert Greene
    PS More beautiful that should have read. Fazioli is like falling in love!(well,almost) REG ... one ... (DAC5 ... you ... and ... link
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 31, 2009
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      PS More beautiful that should have read.
      Fazioli is like falling in love!(well,almost)

      REG

      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Greene"
      <regonaudio@...> wrote:
      >
      > Bravo!
      >
      > REG
      >
      > PS Even if you can only play Christmas carols on it,
      > the Fazioli will give you a mreo beautiful sound in
      > your living room than one could ever dream of from the
      > Ongaku(which is a truly bad amplifier).
      >
      > REG
      >
      > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "joe_yellowdog"
      > <joe_yellowdog@> wrote:
      > >
      > > The top Audio Note based Ongaku system would buy you more than
      one
      > of
      > > the biggest Faziolis. Just an amp (Ongaku:$95,000) and a DAC
      (DAC5
      > > Signature:$76,500)will probably get you close, especially when
      you
      > add
      > > a couple of pairs of the $7,000 AN interconnects (1 meter pair).
      > >
      > > This stuff has nothing to do with audio. It is like buying a
      > bottle of
      > > Bordeaux from Thomas Jefferson's cellar for $150,000 only to find
      > out
      > > it is vinegar -- and then later to discover that you were duped
      and
      > the
      > > wine/vinegar was not even from Jefferson's cellar. Here is a
      link
      > to
      > > an excellent article from the New Yorker on duping wine buyers by
      > > selling them fraudulent ancient wines:
      > >
      > > http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/09/03/070903fa_fact_keefe
      > >
      >
    • sunilm_k2
      I was just going through a recording studio supplier s catalog, reading descriptions of modules designed to add tonal color to the recording chain, often to
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 1, 2009
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        I was just going through a recording studio supplier's catalog,
        reading descriptions of modules designed to add tonal color to the
        recording chain, often to imitate the characterisics of some vintage
        recording console or mic-preamp. Descriptions with terms like "mid-
        forward", "adds bite", "smoky".

        I expect to see these kinds of terms, and more, used in descriptions
        of guitar amplifiers, where the amp is part of the whole musical
        instrument, but ... well, perhaps even in recording some pop/rock ...

        One wonders how much of this 'colored' recording chain gets used in
        the recording of what would otherwise be acoustic music. To draw an
        analogy with film/photography, the photographer will add effects
        that enhance some mood of the scene, and I can see why some people
        would want to do that, to some extent, on audio recordings too (say,
        the mood of a smoky blues club, whatever that means sonically).

        Not surprising then, that some listeners would want their home audio
        gear also to add certain color to the sound to enhance a certain
        tonal mood palette.

        I repeat ... I wonder what proportion of acooustic music recordings
        use such 'colored' recording chains, especially recordings made on
        site to attempt to capture that site's acoustics. And BTW, I like
        non-acoustic music too, a lot of which includes 'acoustic' vocals.

        -- Sunil
      • carokandefence
        The irony of the analogy is this: Ongaku commands the highest price per watt compared to any amp on Earth. (Maybe the WaveWac cost more but not per Watt)
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 3, 2009
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          The irony of the analogy is this:

          Ongaku commands the highest price per watt compared to any amp on
          Earth. (Maybe the WaveWac cost more but not per Watt)

          Romanee Conti (Pinot Noir Wines) commands the highest price for the
          wines.

          Are they the best? The transaction prices seems to indicate.

          Wine is like Hi Fi. A highly debative and subjective topic. Another
          subtle fact is that there migration paths I have seen to Ongaku and
          also to Romanee Conti.

          If these products sucks, they would not command those prices and
          market forces will dictate.

          --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Marty <mbw817@...> wrote:
          >
          > You've just managed to offend every Bordeaux and Rhone drinker out
          there, but hey, that's OK. If Burgundy is your thing, no need to
          apologize to anyone, even if paying ridiculous prices for DRC is
          indeed trendy in some circles. Some of my best friends are Burgundy
          hounds, and I love it when I get to drink their wine which I wouldn't
          necessarily want to pay for myself. Of course, I reciprocate and put
          up with their grimacing when they have to suffer with a good Bordeaux
          or Rhone. Like audio, that's what makes it fun.
          > Marty
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: carokandefence <carokandefence@...>
          > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:15:09 AM
          > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku
          >
          >
          > Did u listen to Ongaku with a high efficency speaker ?
          >
          > I did listen to it but I guess SET is an acquired taste.
          >
          > I do not know if it could be a path where wine drinkers starts
          > enjoying a mighty and robust Shiraz (Solid State Amps) and refines
          > ones taste to Carbenet Savignion (Push Pull Tubes ) and finally the
          > ultimate - finest Pinot Noir (SET). This analogy is stated
          becuase
          > many have taken that path. I know of folks who has owned muscle
          amps
          > that cost a ton and gone to SET.
          >
          > Strange but SET is like the Romanee Conti.
          >
          > And Martin Collums loves the Ongaku and raves about it.
          >
          > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Greene"
          > <regonaudio@ ...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > It is a very bad amplifier in any technical sense. And to
          > > me it sounded very colored.
          > > But there is a paradox intrinsic to audio reviewing. Reproduced
          > > music will, one hopes, offer the same satisfactions in many
          > > directions as live music with the added advantages mentioned
          > earlier.
          > > The problem is that no one really know what sonic aspects
          > > do what music does. We all sort of suppose that if we
          > > get close to the original sound we shall get close to the live
          > > emotional experience. That is the faith in high fidelity.
          > > But if something moves one, it moves one. And no one else can say
          > it
          > > does not.
          > >
          > > In my experience, perhaps because I hear so much live music,
          > > there is no conflict. Things that sound more real work better
          > > for me as musical experience. But I would never say that
          > > it is the same for everyone.
          > >
          > > The problem with things like Ongaku and so on is that it seems
          > > to me very possible that one could get exactly the same sound
          > > for far less money. Indeed the reason for understanding how audio
          > > works is ultimately to be able to do just that--get the sound one
          > > wants without too much expenditure. For example, Artin Colloms
          > > demonstrated many years ago that a 3 ohm resistor on the output
          of
          > a
          > > solid state amp made it sound a lot like a single ended triode.
          > >
          > > And my own single ended triode amp(surprise surprise I do own
          one)
          > > cost about $50 to build. It sounds very much like an Ongaku.
          > >
          > > There is the desire for musical magic. And then there is the
          > > willingness to be played for a sucker, de facto. I am not
          implying
          > > that Ongaku people are cynics. They probably believe in what they
          > > sell. But one can sell snake oil and believe in snake oil,too.
          > >
          > > REG
          > >
          >
        • Marty
          In fact, audiophilia and oenophilia have a great deal in common: 1) They both are passions enjoyed by hobbyists that appeal to the senses 2) Both have products
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 3, 2009
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            In fact, audiophilia and oenophilia have a great deal in common:

            1) They both are passions enjoyed by hobbyists that appeal to the senses
            2) Both have products that are stratospherically expensive
            3) Both hobbies enjoy the fact that "it doesn't have to be expensive to be good".
            4) "Good" is a totally subjective determinant and is in the eye of the consumer.
            5) It's easy to be duped. Even the great ones are fooled every once in a while. I was disappointed that the referenced New Yorker article did not once mention that the entire story told in the article was the topic of a book "The Billionaire's Vinegar" by Benjamin Wallace. It is a fun and quick read that delves into the great personalities of the wine trade and showed how even the greatest of experts, Michael Broadbent and Robert Parker (i.e. the counterparts to Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson ??) were fooled by the fraudulent 1870 Jefferson bottles. Of course, Holt and Pearson are never fooled (heh,heh,heh)!!
            6) Both are "poster child" hobbies for the adage: "The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys".
            7) Both give great weight to a truism of the philosopher David Hume who, to paraphrase, said "reason is a slave to the passions" 
            8) See #3.

            To be serious for a moment, I respect Broadbent and Parker enormously and consider them to be great educators from whom I've learned a great deal on the subject of wine. This is equally true to Holt and Pearson, who I also consider great educators in our field and from whom I have learned a great deal. 
            Marty


            From: carokandefence <carokandefence@...>
            To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 9:45:41 AM
            Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku

            The irony of the analogy is this:

            Ongaku commands the highest price per watt compared to any amp on
            Earth. (Maybe the WaveWac cost more but not per Watt)

            Romanee Conti (Pinot Noir Wines) commands the highest price for the
            wines.

            Are they the best? The transaction prices seems to indicate.

            Wine is like Hi Fi. A highly debative and subjective topic. Another
            subtle fact is that there migration paths I have seen to Ongaku and
            also to Romanee Conti.

            If these products sucks, they would not command those prices and
            market forces will dictate.

            --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, Marty <mbw817@...> wrote:
            >
            > You've just managed to offend every Bordeaux and Rhone drinker out
            there, but hey, that's OK. If Burgundy is your thing, no need to
            apologize to anyone, even if paying ridiculous prices for DRC is
            indeed trendy in some circles. Some of my best friends are Burgundy
            hounds, and I love it when I get to drink their wine which I wouldn't
            necessarily want to pay for myself. Of course, I reciprocate and put
            up with their grimacing when they have to suffer with a good Bordeaux
            or Rhone. Like audio, that's what makes it fun.
            > Marty
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ __
            > From: carokandefence <carokandefence@ ...>
            > To: regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:15:09 AM
            > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku
            >
            >
            > Did u listen to Ongaku with a high efficency speaker ?
            >
            > I did listen to it but I guess SET is an acquired taste.
            >
            > I do not know if it could be a path where wine drinkers starts
            > enjoying a mighty and robust Shiraz (Solid State Amps) and refines
            > ones taste to Carbenet Savignion (Push Pull Tubes ) and finally the
            > ultimate - finest Pinot Noir (SET). This analogy is stated
            becuase
            > many have taken that path. I know of folks who has owned muscle
            amps
            > that cost a ton and gone to SET.
            >
            > Strange but SET is like the Romanee Conti.
            >
            > And Martin Collums loves the Ongaku and raves about it.
            >
            > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Greene"
            > <regonaudio@ ...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > It is a very bad amplifier in any technical sense. And to
            > > me it sounded very colored.
            > > But there is a paradox intrinsic to audio reviewing. Reproduced
            > > music will, one hopes, offer the same satisfactions in many
            > > directions as live music with the added advantages mentioned
            > earlier.
            > > The problem is that no one really know what sonic aspects
            > > do what music does. We all sort of suppose that if we
            > > get close to the original sound we shall get close to the live
            > > emotional experience. That is the faith in high fidelity.
            > > But if something moves one, it moves one. And no one else can say
            > it
            > > does not.
            > >
            > > In my experience, perhaps because I hear so much live music,
            > > there is no conflict. Things that sound more real work better
            > > for me as musical experience. But I would never say that
            > > it is the same for everyone.
            > >
            > > The problem with things like Ongaku and so on is that it seems
            > > to me very possible that one could get exactly the same sound
            > > for far less money. Indeed the reason for understanding how audio
            > > works is ultimately to be able to do just that--get the sound one
            > > wants without too much expenditure. For example, Artin Colloms
            > > demonstrated many years ago that a 3 ohm resistor on the output
            of
            > a
            > > solid state amp made it sound a lot like a single ended triode.
            > >
            > > And my own single ended triode amp(surprise surprise I do own
            one)
            > > cost about $50 to build. It sounds very much like an Ongaku.
            > >
            > > There is the desire for musical magic. And then there is the
            > > willingness to be played for a sucker, de facto. I am not
            implying
            > > that Ongaku people are cynics. They probably believe in what they
            > > sell. But one can sell snake oil and believe in snake oil,too.
            > >
            > > REG
            > >
            >

          • Robert Greene
            I find it hard to believe that there is still anyone around who sincerely believes that there is a direct connection between price and quality of performance.
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 3, 2009
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              I find it hard to believe that there is still
              anyone around who sincerely believes that there
              is a direct connection between price and quality of
              performance.
              "Image marketing" is simply a fact of life in
              the commercial world. And sometimes people want
              things for reasons other than that they work
              well(or taste good).

              REG

              PS One interesting example of the detachment of price
              and performance is art. A painting is a painting.
              What it does is what one sees.
              And yet when it was decided that many of the supposed
              Rembrandts were actually by his students or others
              their prices dropped enormously. Obviously
              people were paying for mystique or historical significance
              rather than the "performance" of the painting--that is,
              how it was as a work of art unto itself. This is so
              widespread that it seems unnecessary even to pursue it
              as a topic of discussion.


              --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "carokandefence"
              <carokandefence@...> wrote:
              >
              > The irony of the analogy is this:
              >
              > Ongaku commands the highest price per watt compared to any amp on
              > Earth. (Maybe the WaveWac cost more but not per Watt)
              >
              > Romanee Conti (Pinot Noir Wines) commands the highest price for the
              > wines.
              >
              > Are they the best? The transaction prices seems to indicate.
              >
              > Wine is like Hi Fi. A highly debative and subjective topic. Another
              > subtle fact is that there migration paths I have seen to Ongaku and
              > also to Romanee Conti.
              >
              > If these products sucks, they would not command those prices and
              > market forces will dictate.
              >
              > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Marty <mbw817@> wrote:
              > >
              > > You've just managed to offend every Bordeaux and Rhone drinker
              out
              > there, but hey, that's OK. If Burgundy is your thing, no need to
              > apologize to anyone, even if paying ridiculous prices for DRC is
              > indeed trendy in some circles. Some of my best friends are Burgundy
              > hounds, and I love it when I get to drink their wine which I
              wouldn't
              > necessarily want to pay for myself. Of course, I reciprocate and
              put
              > up with their grimacing when they have to suffer with a good
              Bordeaux
              > or Rhone. Like audio, that's what makes it fun.
              > > Marty
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________
              > > From: carokandefence <carokandefence@>
              > > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:15:09 AM
              > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku
              > >
              > >
              > > Did u listen to Ongaku with a high efficency speaker ?
              > >
              > > I did listen to it but I guess SET is an acquired taste.
              > >
              > > I do not know if it could be a path where wine drinkers starts
              > > enjoying a mighty and robust Shiraz (Solid State Amps) and
              refines
              > > ones taste to Carbenet Savignion (Push Pull Tubes ) and finally
              the
              > > ultimate - finest Pinot Noir (SET). This analogy is stated
              > becuase
              > > many have taken that path. I know of folks who has owned muscle
              > amps
              > > that cost a ton and gone to SET.
              > >
              > > Strange but SET is like the Romanee Conti.
              > >
              > > And Martin Collums loves the Ongaku and raves about it.
              > >
              > > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Greene"
              > > <regonaudio@ ...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > It is a very bad amplifier in any technical sense. And to
              > > > me it sounded very colored.
              > > > But there is a paradox intrinsic to audio reviewing. Reproduced
              > > > music will, one hopes, offer the same satisfactions in many
              > > > directions as live music with the added advantages mentioned
              > > earlier.
              > > > The problem is that no one really know what sonic aspects
              > > > do what music does. We all sort of suppose that if we
              > > > get close to the original sound we shall get close to the live
              > > > emotional experience. That is the faith in high fidelity.
              > > > But if something moves one, it moves one. And no one else can
              say
              > > it
              > > > does not.
              > > >
              > > > In my experience, perhaps because I hear so much live music,
              > > > there is no conflict. Things that sound more real work better
              > > > for me as musical experience. But I would never say that
              > > > it is the same for everyone.
              > > >
              > > > The problem with things like Ongaku and so on is that it seems
              > > > to me very possible that one could get exactly the same sound
              > > > for far less money. Indeed the reason for understanding how
              audio
              > > > works is ultimately to be able to do just that--get the sound
              one
              > > > wants without too much expenditure. For example, Artin Colloms
              > > > demonstrated many years ago that a 3 ohm resistor on the output
              > of
              > > a
              > > > solid state amp made it sound a lot like a single ended triode.
              > > >
              > > > And my own single ended triode amp(surprise surprise I do own
              > one)
              > > > cost about $50 to build. It sounds very much like an Ongaku.
              > > >
              > > > There is the desire for musical magic. And then there is the
              > > > willingness to be played for a sucker, de facto. I am not
              > implying
              > > > that Ongaku people are cynics. They probably believe in what
              they
              > > > sell. But one can sell snake oil and believe in snake oil,too.
              > > >
              > > > REG
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Robert Greene
              But there is an important difference: Audio has a definite goal. That is what the absolute sound idea is about. Audio is not really a matter of what tastes
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 3, 2009
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                But there is an important difference:
                Audio has a definite goal. That is what the absolute sound
                idea is about. Audio is not really a matter of what tastes
                good (or sounds good) but what sounds right. Or at least
                that is true of audio as Harry P and his followers(e.g., me)
                believe. There is no a priori goal towards which wine is struggling.


                It is the job of musicians to make music sound "good" in whatever
                sense they want it to. The job of audio is to get that sound to you
                at home. Audio is more like wine bottles than wine.

                I think the comparison is misguided, though it is often made. Of
                course, there are similarities in the psychology of the two--as there
                would be with any two somewhat obsessive activities. But it is quite
                a different thing to try to reproduce music than to try to find wines
                that one likes. Of course, being me, I would argue that the pursuit
                of musical sound is related to great art while the pursuit of wine
                is a somewhat childish self-indulgence--but that is the musician
                talking. I like Chateau d'Yquem(every once in a while someone gives
                it to me as a present or I buy it for a very special occasion). But
                drinking it is just a pleasure, not an artistic experience, as far as
                I am concerned. Chacun a son gout, as Prince Orlovsky would say.


                REG

                PS There is one deeper similarity. I do not know this for a fact, but
                I have formed some impression that people with good sensory memory
                for one can of experience tend to have good sensory memory for other
                kinds. I think maybe if you are good at remembering sound, you are
                more likely to be good at remembering taste and color.


                --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Marty <mbw817@...> wrote:
                >
                > In fact, audiophilia and oenophilia have a great deal in common:
                >
                > 1) They both are passions enjoyed by hobbyists that appeal to the
                senses
                > 2) Both have products that are stratospherically expensive
                > 3) Both hobbies enjoy the fact that "it doesn't have to be
                expensive to be good".
                > 4) "Good" is a totally subjective determinant and is in the eye of
                the consumer.
                > 5) It's easy to be duped. Even the great ones are fooled every once
                in a while. I was disappointed that the referenced New Yorker article
                did not once mention that the entire story told in the article was
                the topic of a book "The Billionaire's Vinegar" by Benjamin Wallace.
                It is a fun and quick read that delves into the great personalities
                of the wine trade and showed how even the greatest of experts,
                Michael Broadbent and Robert Parker (i.e. the counterparts to Gordon
                Holt and Harry Pearson ??) were fooled by the fraudulent 1870
                Jefferson bottles. Of course, Holt and Pearson are never fooled
                (heh,heh,heh)!!
                > 6) Both are "poster child" hobbies for the adage: "The difference
                between men and boys is the price of their toys".
                > 7) Both give great weight to a truism of the philosopher David Hume
                who, to paraphrase, said "reason is a slave to the passions"
                > 8) See #3.
                >
                > To be serious for a moment, I respect Broadbent and Parker
                enormously and consider them to be great educators from whom I've
                learned a great deal on the subject of wine. This is equally true to
                Holt and Pearson, who I also consider great educators in our field
                and from whom I have learned a great deal.
                > Marty
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: carokandefence <carokandefence@...>
                > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 9:45:41 AM
                > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku
                >
                >
                > The irony of the analogy is this:
                >
                > Ongaku commands the highest price per watt compared to any amp on
                > Earth. (Maybe the WaveWac cost more but not per Watt)
                >
                > Romanee Conti (Pinot Noir Wines) commands the highest price for the
                > wines.
                >
                > Are they the best? The transaction prices seems to indicate.
                >
                > Wine is like Hi Fi. A highly debative and subjective topic. Another
                > subtle fact is that there migration paths I have seen to Ongaku and
                > also to Romanee Conti.
                >
                > If these products sucks, they would not command those prices and
                > market forces will dictate.
                >
                > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, Marty <mbw817@> wrote:
                > >
                > > You've just managed to offend every Bordeaux and Rhone drinker
                out
                > there, but hey, that's OK. If Burgundy is your thing, no need to
                > apologize to anyone, even if paying ridiculous prices for DRC is
                > indeed trendy in some circles. Some of my best friends are Burgundy
                > hounds, and I love it when I get to drink their wine which I
                wouldn't
                > necessarily want to pay for myself. Of course, I reciprocate and
                put
                > up with their grimacing when they have to suffer with a good
                Bordeaux
                > or Rhone. Like audio, that's what makes it fun.
                > > Marty
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > From: carokandefence <carokandefence@ ...>
                > > To: regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com
                > > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:15:09 AM
                > > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku
                > >
                > >
                > > Did u listen to Ongaku with a high efficency speaker ?
                > >
                > > I did listen to it but I guess SET is an acquired taste.
                > >
                > > I do not know if it could be a path where wine drinkers starts
                > > enjoying a mighty and robust Shiraz (Solid State Amps) and
                refines
                > > ones taste to Carbenet Savignion (Push Pull Tubes ) and finally
                the
                > > ultimate - finest Pinot Noir (SET). This analogy is stated
                > becuase
                > > many have taken that path. I know of folks who has owned muscle
                > amps
                > > that cost a ton and gone to SET.
                > >
                > > Strange but SET is like the Romanee Conti.
                > >
                > > And Martin Collums loves the Ongaku and raves about it.
                > >
                > > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Greene"
                > > <regonaudio@ ...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > It is a very bad amplifier in any technical sense. And to
                > > > me it sounded very colored.
                > > > But there is a paradox intrinsic to audio reviewing. Reproduced
                > > > music will, one hopes, offer the same satisfactions in many
                > > > directions as live music with the added advantages mentioned
                > > earlier.
                > > > The problem is that no one really know what sonic aspects
                > > > do what music does. We all sort of suppose that if we
                > > > get close to the original sound we shall get close to the live
                > > > emotional experience. That is the faith in high fidelity.
                > > > But if something moves one, it moves one. And no one else can
                say
                > > it
                > > > does not.
                > > >
                > > > In my experience, perhaps because I hear so much live music,
                > > > there is no conflict. Things that sound more real work better
                > > > for me as musical experience. But I would never say that
                > > > it is the same for everyone.
                > > >
                > > > The problem with things like Ongaku and so on is that it seems
                > > > to me very possible that one could get exactly the same sound
                > > > for far less money. Indeed the reason for understanding how
                audio
                > > > works is ultimately to be able to do just that--get the sound
                one
                > > > wants without too much expenditure. For example, Artin Colloms
                > > > demonstrated many years ago that a 3 ohm resistor on the output
                > of
                > > a
                > > > solid state amp made it sound a lot like a single ended triode.
                > > >
                > > > And my own single ended triode amp(surprise surprise I do own
                > one)
                > > > cost about $50 to build. It sounds very much like an Ongaku.
                > > >
                > > > There is the desire for musical magic. And then there is the
                > > > willingness to be played for a sucker, de facto. I am not
                > implying
                > > > that Ongaku people are cynics. They probably believe in what
                they
                > > > sell. But one can sell snake oil and believe in snake oil,too.
                > > >
                > > > REG
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Tip Johnson
                Hi REG, ... Now, there s a quote to remember! Tip
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 3, 2009
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                  Hi REG,

                  > Audio is more like wine bottles than wine.

                  Now, there's a quote to remember!

                  Tip
                • cpz2760
                  A wine bottle is a storage media, just like CDs, LPs and now HDs are a storage media for recorded music/data. I prefer to drink wine and listen to music,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 3, 2009
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                    A wine bottle is a storage media, just like CDs, LPs and now HDs are a
                    storage media for recorded music/data.

                    I prefer to drink wine and listen to music, rather than write about the
                    experience.



                    --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "Tip Johnson" <Tip_Johnson@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi REG,
                    >
                    > > Audio is more like wine bottles than wine.
                    >
                    > Now, there's a quote to remember!
                    >
                    > Tip
                    >
                  • Will_H
                    I think more than 50% of the population believe this. ... From: Robert Greene To: Sent: Tuesday,
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 3, 2009
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                      I think more than 50% of the population believe this.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Robert Greene" <regonaudio@...>
                      To: <regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:26 AM
                      Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku


                      >I find it hard to believe that there is still
                      > anyone around who sincerely believes that there
                      > is a direct connection between price and quality of
                      > performance.
                      > "Image marketing" is simply a fact of life in
                      > the commercial world. And sometimes people want
                      > things for reasons other than that they work
                      > well(or taste good).
                      >
                      > REG
                      >
                      > PS One interesting example of the detachment of price
                      > and performance is art. A painting is a painting.
                      > What it does is what one sees.
                      > And yet when it was decided that many of the supposed
                      > Rembrandts were actually by his students or others
                      > their prices dropped enormously. Obviously
                      > people were paying for mystique or historical significance
                      > rather than the "performance" of the painting--that is,
                      > how it was as a work of art unto itself. This is so
                      > widespread that it seems unnecessary even to pursue it
                      > as a topic of discussion.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, "carokandefence"
                      > <carokandefence@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> The irony of the analogy is this:
                      >>
                      >> Ongaku commands the highest price per watt compared to any amp on
                      >> Earth. (Maybe the WaveWac cost more but not per Watt)
                      >>
                      >> Romanee Conti (Pinot Noir Wines) commands the highest price for the
                      >> wines.
                      >>
                      >> Are they the best? The transaction prices seems to indicate.
                      >>
                      >> Wine is like Hi Fi. A highly debative and subjective topic. Another
                      >> subtle fact is that there migration paths I have seen to Ongaku and
                      >> also to Romanee Conti.
                      >>
                      >> If these products sucks, they would not command those prices and
                      >> market forces will dictate.
                      >>
                      >> --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, Marty <mbw817@> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > You've just managed to offend every Bordeaux and Rhone drinker
                      > out
                      >> there, but hey, that's OK. If Burgundy is your thing, no need to
                      >> apologize to anyone, even if paying ridiculous prices for DRC is
                      >> indeed trendy in some circles. Some of my best friends are Burgundy
                      >> hounds, and I love it when I get to drink their wine which I
                      > wouldn't
                      >> necessarily want to pay for myself. Of course, I reciprocate and
                      > put
                      >> up with their grimacing when they have to suffer with a good
                      > Bordeaux
                      >> or Rhone. Like audio, that's what makes it fun.
                      >> > Marty
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > ________________________________
                      >> > From: carokandefence <carokandefence@>
                      >> > To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      >> > Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:15:09 AM
                      >> > Subject: [regsaudioforum] Re: Ongaku
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > Did u listen to Ongaku with a high efficency speaker ?
                      >> >
                      >> > I did listen to it but I guess SET is an acquired taste.
                      >> >
                      >> > I do not know if it could be a path where wine drinkers starts
                      >> > enjoying a mighty and robust Shiraz (Solid State Amps) and
                      > refines
                      >> > ones taste to Carbenet Savignion (Push Pull Tubes ) and finally
                      > the
                      >> > ultimate - finest Pinot Noir (SET). This analogy is stated
                      >> becuase
                      >> > many have taken that path. I know of folks who has owned muscle
                      >> amps
                      >> > that cost a ton and gone to SET.
                      >> >
                      >> > Strange but SET is like the Romanee Conti.
                      >> >
                      >> > And Martin Collums loves the Ongaku and raves about it.
                      >> >
                      >> > --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Greene"
                      >> > <regonaudio@ ...> wrote:
                      >> > >
                      >> > >
                      >> > > It is a very bad amplifier in any technical sense. And to
                      >> > > me it sounded very colored.
                      >> > > But there is a paradox intrinsic to audio reviewing. Reproduced
                      >> > > music will, one hopes, offer the same satisfactions in many
                      >> > > directions as live music with the added advantages mentioned
                      >> > earlier.
                      >> > > The problem is that no one really know what sonic aspects
                      >> > > do what music does. We all sort of suppose that if we
                      >> > > get close to the original sound we shall get close to the live
                      >> > > emotional experience. That is the faith in high fidelity.
                      >> > > But if something moves one, it moves one. And no one else can
                      > say
                      >> > it
                      >> > > does not.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > In my experience, perhaps because I hear so much live music,
                      >> > > there is no conflict. Things that sound more real work better
                      >> > > for me as musical experience. But I would never say that
                      >> > > it is the same for everyone.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > The problem with things like Ongaku and so on is that it seems
                      >> > > to me very possible that one could get exactly the same sound
                      >> > > for far less money. Indeed the reason for understanding how
                      > audio
                      >> > > works is ultimately to be able to do just that--get the sound
                      > one
                      >> > > wants without too much expenditure. For example, Artin Colloms
                      >> > > demonstrated many years ago that a 3 ohm resistor on the output
                      >> of
                      >> > a
                      >> > > solid state amp made it sound a lot like a single ended triode.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > And my own single ended triode amp(surprise surprise I do own
                      >> one)
                      >> > > cost about $50 to build. It sounds very much like an Ongaku.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > There is the desire for musical magic. And then there is the
                      >> > > willingness to be played for a sucker, de facto. I am not
                      >> implying
                      >> > > that Ongaku people are cynics. They probably believe in what
                      > they
                      >> > > sell. But one can sell snake oil and believe in snake oil,too.
                      >> > >
                      >> > > REG
                      >> > >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
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