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Re: Speaker arrangement

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  • Robert Greene
    Happy New Year! Home from some hours of the real thing! Sixty degrees arose more or less erratically. As far as I can tell , this is the source of the idea
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 31, 2008
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      Happy New Year!

      Home from some hours of the real thing!

      Sixty degrees arose more or less erratically.
      As far as I can tell , this is the source of the idea that it
      has a theoretical basis:
      There was a paper by van der Lyn and others in the
      1950s where they showed that a very wide angle
      placement (even more than the Blumlein 90 dgrees, something like 110
      degrees as I recall)
      gave very accurate angular position out to
      +- 40 degrees(with Blumleim recording, or
      pan potting of the equivalent sort). The extra angle for the speakers
      apparently deals with some head shadowing effects to good effect.
      But they noted the need to sit still in such an
      arrangement, and by experimenting found
      that 60 degrees gives the wrong angles of course
      but that it compressed the angles more or less uniformly
      in the sense that the ratios of angles remained the same.
      So they suggested that this was maybe a practical
      domestic compromise--more center stability(i,e,, one did not have to
      be so precisely centered to listen) and
      obviously an easier thing to set up in a home environment.

      But that is the only theoretical basis that I am aware of.
      And it was clearly indicated that the results were
      for convenience not for literal accuracy.

      As to speakers firing straightforward-- this placement
      will widen the "soundstage". First of all, it cuts
      highs(for most speakers) and hence floats images,
      reducing the amplitude image fixing and increasing the
      phase driven position sensing comparatively, the latter
      being what allows outside the speakers images, the former not.
      Secondly, it bounces more sound off the walls, which
      also widens the image and creates spaciousness in some
      sense. If people like it, fine. But it is really some
      sort of addition/alteration of what is actually recorded.


      Mercury image weird? You mean, you do not think pianos are
      actually two thirds as wide as orchestras?

      Happy New Year to all!

      REG

      --- In regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com, ymm <yipmangmeng@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > How did the equilateral arrangement of speakers and listener's
      seat became the norm for audio setup in the home? Who started it?
      > What about the isosceles arrangement?
      > Was it HP who came out with the suggestion that speakers should
      be facing parallel to the long walls(i.e. firing straight ahead ) so
      the the stage will not be skewed
      > Tom, do you still listen to the Mercury Living Presence often
      nowadays? What a strange stereo image.
      >
      > best,
      > Yip
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Get your new Email address!
      > Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else
      does!
      >
    • ymm
      REG thanks for the reply. Nowadays it is almost the norm in high end circles to have the speaker firing ahead because otherwise one will land up with a
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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        REG thanks for the reply. Nowadays it is almost the norm in high end circles to have the speaker firing ahead because otherwise one will land up with a banana-shaped stereo image!
         
        They really believe that and they hear that.Or maybe it is the other way around.
         
        Of Mercury Living Presence, I was referring to the three pools of sound that I hear on my setup which I find non-coherent and strange. Of course, such a huge piano image on the orchestral stereo stage is very weird indeed.
         
        best,
        Yip  

        Robert Greene <regonaudio@...> wrote:
        Happy New Year!

        Home from some hours of the real thing!

        Sixty degrees arose more or less erratically.
        As far as I can tell , this is the source of the idea that it
        has a theoretical basis:
        There was a paper by van der Lyn and others in the
        1950s where they showed that a very wide angle
        placement (even more than the Blumlein 90 dgrees, something like 110
        degrees as I recall)
        gave very accurate angular position out to
        +- 40 degrees(with Blumleim recording, or
        pan potting of the equivalent sort). The extra angle for the speakers
        apparently deals with some head shadowing effects to good effect.
        But they noted the need to sit still in such an
        arrangement, and by experimenting found
        that 60 degrees gives the wrong angles of course
        but that it compressed the angles more or less uniformly
        in the sense that the ratios of angles remained the same.
        So they suggested that this was maybe a practical
        domestic compromise-- more center stability(i, e,, one did not have to
        be so precisely centered to listen) and
        obviously an easier thing to set up in a home environment.

        But that is the only theoretical basis that I am aware of.
        And it was clearly indicated that the results were
        for convenience not for literal accuracy.

        As to speakers firing straightforward- - this placement
        will widen the "soundstage" . First of all, it cuts
        highs(for most speakers) and hence floats images,
        reducing the amplitude image fixing and increasing the
        phase driven position sensing comparatively, the latter
        being what allows outside the speakers images, the former not.
        Secondly, it bounces more sound off the walls, which
        also widens the image and creates spaciousness in some
        sense. If people like it, fine. But it is really some
        sort of addition/alteration of what is actually recorded.

        Mercury image weird? You mean, you do not think pianos are
        actually two thirds as wide as orchestras?

        Happy New Year to all!

        REG

        --- In regsaudioforum@ yahoogroups. com, ymm <yipmangmeng@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > How did the equilateral arrangement of speakers and listener's
        seat became the norm for audio setup in the home? Who started it?
        > What about the isosceles arrangement?
        > Was it HP who came out with the suggestion that speakers should
        be facing parallel to the long walls(i.e. firing straight ahead ) so
        the the stage will not be skewed
        > Tom, do you still listen to the Mercury Living Presence often
        nowadays? What a strange stereo image.
        >
        > best,
        > Yip
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
        > Get your new Email address!
        > Grab the Email name you&#39;ve always wanted before someone else
        does!
        >



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      • Tom Mallin
        The Mercury stereo image is what you would hear from Telarc if the mikes were closer. They used three widely spaced omni mikes, like Telarc and some others,
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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          The Mercury stereo image is what you would hear from Telarc if the mikes were closer.  They used three widely spaced omni mikes, like Telarc and some others, but had them in somewhat closer.  Yes, I still listen with EQed highs.

          >>> yipmangmeng@... 1/1/2009 12:43 AM >>>
          Hi All,
           
          How did the equilateral arrangement of speakers and listener's seat became the norm for audio setup in the home? Who started it?
          What about the isosceles arrangement?
          Was it HP who came out with the suggestion that speakers should be facing parallel to the long walls(i.e. firing straight ahead ) so the the stage will not be skewed
          Tom, do you still listen to the Mercury Living Presence often nowadays? What a strange stereo image.
           
          best,
          Yip


          Get your new Email address!
          Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!

        • Tom Mallin
          P.S.: Yes, on some you can certainly hear pools of sound from the three mikes. The closer the instruments are to the mikes (as in solo pianos or strings at
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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            P.S.:  Yes, on some you can certainly hear pools of sound from the three mikes.  The closer the instruments are to the mikes (as in solo pianos or strings at stage front), the more this happens.  Their technique had the best results with large ensembles and the few choir recordings they did have the choir nicely portrayed in the rear and at realistic, non-spotlighted levels.

            >>> tmallin@... 1/1/2009 11:46 AM >>>
            The Mercury stereo image is what you would hear from Telarc if the mikes were closer.  They used three widely spaced omni mikes, like Telarc and some others, but had them in somewhat closer.  Yes, I still listen with EQed highs.

            >>> yipmangmeng@... 1/1/2009 12:43 AM >>>
            Hi All,
             
            How did the equilateral arrangement of speakers and listener's seat became the norm for audio setup in the home? Who started it?
            What about the isosceles arrangement?
            Was it HP who came out with the suggestion that speakers should be facing parallel to the long walls(i.e. firing straight ahead ) so the the stage will not be skewed
            Tom, do you still listen to the Mercury Living Presence often nowadays? What a strange stereo image.
             
            best,
            Yip


            Get your new Email address!
            Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!

          • sunilm_k2
            ... Only the Concert Grands. Then there are the Ultimate Grands, and the Disembodied Grands. This is one of my pet peeves actually, when they spread out the
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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              > Mercury image weird? You mean, you do not think pianos are
              > actually two thirds as wide as orchestras?

              Only the Concert Grands. Then there are the Ultimate Grands, and the
              Disembodied Grands.

              This is one of my pet peeves actually, when they spread out the piano,
              or the drumset. Interesting once in a while as an 'effect' but there
              seems to be too much of it.

              Happy New Year!

              --SM
            • Ted Rook
              A quick trawl through some BBC technical reports didn t turn up anything yet, they use the equilateral layout themselves, and their preferred stereo microphone
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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                A quick trawl through some BBC technical reports didn't turn up anything yet, they use the
                equilateral layout themselves, and their preferred stereo microphone technique was (is?) the
                M+S system. This link

                http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/archive/index.shtml


                takes you to a goldmine of BBC technical material going back decades, most of the research
                into stereo, and speakers good enough for the FM radio that carried it, was done in the 1950s
                and 1960s. Those curious about the basics of recording and broadcasting radio and TV
                sound may find this website a valuable resource as I do myself.

                Happy New Year

                Ted


                On 1 Jan 2009 at 14:43, ymm wrote:

                >
                > Hi All,
                >
                > How did the equilateral arrangement of speakers and listener's seat became the norm for audio
                > setup in the home? Who started it?
                > What about the isosceles arrangement?
                > Was it HP who came out with the suggestion that speakers should be facing parallel to the long
                > walls(i.e. firing straight ahead) so the the stage will not be skewed
                > Tom, do you stilllisten to the Mercury Living Presence often nowadays? What a strange stereo
                > image.
                >
                > best,
                > Yip
                >
                > Get your new Email address!
                > Grab the Email name you've always wanted before someone else does!
              • Ken Holder
                ... Simply (ha!, Simply!) move back from the speakers to merge the Three Pools (sort- of like the three shells in Demolition Man ? maybe? :-) But, yeah,
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 1, 2009
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                  At 10:50 AM 1/1/2009, Tom Mallin wrote:

                  P.S.:  Yes, on some you can certainly hear pools of sound from the three mikes.  The closer the instruments are to the mikes (as in solo pianos or strings at stage front), the more this happens.  Their technique had the best results with large ensembles and the few choir recordings they did have the choir nicely portrayed in the rear and at realistic, non-spotlighted levels.


                  Simply (ha!, Simply!) move back from the
                  speakers to merge the "Three Pools" (sort-
                  of like the "three shells" in "Demolition
                  Man"? maybe? :-)

                  But, yeah, yer shore gotta turn down the
                  highs some.

                  Ken Holder
                  Just a Poor, Old, Simple, Country, Music-Lover


                • ymm
                  Nothing like a cheap Ikea chair on coasters for convenience. Yip Ken Holder wrote: At 10:50 AM 1/1/2009, Tom Mallin wrote: P.S.: Yes,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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                    Nothing like a cheap Ikea chair on coasters for convenience.
                     
                    Yip

                    Ken Holder <ken_holder@...> wrote:
                    At 10:50 AM 1/1/2009, Tom Mallin wrote:

                    P.S.:  Yes, on some you can certainly hear pools of sound from the three mikes.  The closer the instruments are to the mikes (as in solo pianos or strings at stage front), the more this happens.  Their technique had the best results with large ensembles and the few choir recordings they did have the choir nicely portrayed in the rear and at realistic, non-spotlighted levels.


                    Simply (ha!, Simply!) move back from the
                    speakers to merge the "Three Pools" (sort-
                    of like the "three shells" in "Demolition
                    Man"? maybe? :-)

                    But, yeah, yer shore gotta turn down the
                    highs some.

                    Ken Holder
                    Just a Poor, Old, Simple, Country, Music-Lover




                    New Email addresses available on Yahoo!
                    Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail.
                    Hurry before someone else does!

                  • Fred
                    Ah yes - Just WHAT were those three shells for? (One up, one down and one to polish?) ;-) Fred.   ________________________________ From: Ken Holder
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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                      Ah yes - Just WHAT were those three shells for?
                      (One up, one down and one to polish?)
                      ;-)
                      Fred.

                       

                      From: Ken Holder <ken_holder@...>
                      To: regsaudioforum@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, 2 January, 2009 3:25:34
                      Subject: Re: [regsaudioforum] Speaker arrangement

                      At 10:50 AM 1/1/2009, Tom Mallin wrote:

                      P.S.:  Yes, on some you can certainly hear pools of sound from the three mikes.  The closer the instruments are to the mikes (as in solo pianos or strings at stage front), the more this happens.  Their technique had the best results with large ensembles and the few choir recordings they did have the choir nicely portrayed in the rear and at realistic, non-spotlighted levels.


                      Simply (ha!, Simply!) move back from the
                      speakers to merge the "Three Pools" (sort-
                      of like the "three shells" in "Demolition
                      Man"? maybe? :-)

                      But, yeah, yer shore gotta turn down the
                      highs some.

                      Ken Holder
                      Just a Poor, Old, Simple, Country, Music-Lover



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