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Re: [redlex] The coming Lion

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  • Janet S.S. Nussbaum
    Gideon, There s a on-going discussion on Mellel & Lion on the Mellel Forum which you should read: http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2555 Janet S.S.
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 1, 2011
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      Gideon,

      There's a on-going discussion on Mellel & Lion on the Mellel Forum which you should read:

      http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2555

      Janet S.S. Nussbaum
      Kiriat Ono, Israel

      ג'נט נוסבאום
      קרית אונו





      On 1 Jul2011, at 11:55 PM, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:

      > The introduction of the Lion X Operating System is now expected very soon. As always when the OS is changed we have good reason to worry. When Snow Leopard was introduced it stopped supporting ".otf" fonts and the use of the Character Viewer in Mellel was neutralized. For the Open Type fonts we were told to change the suffix to ".ttf" and it worked; the usefulness of the Character Viewer could not be recovered. Can we be sure that Mellel’s self-support of all fonts will not be injured? And what about the Character Viewer or other (maybe more serious) problems?
      > I may be mistaken, but I strongly suspect that the ever changing systems, always followed by stopping the support of former ones, is not just the outcome of technological progress, but the frequent changes are rather motivated by aggressive commercial interests. Is it not time for the customers to say their word? Maybe some forum members that are greater experts than I am, and the Redlers themselves, might advice us about these matters.
      > Gideon.
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Charly Avital
      Gideon Goldenberg ... I ll go out on a limb, and venture that aggressive commercial interests are at
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 1, 2011
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        Gideon Goldenberg <BF608CAB-8911-416F-AB4C-C94A0C90D6C8@...>
        wrote on 7/1/11 10:55:06 PM:

        > I may be mistaken, but I strongly suspect that the ever changing
        > systems, always followed by stopping the support of former ones, is not
        > just the outcome of technological progress, but the frequent changes are
        > rather motivated by aggressive commercial interests.

        I'll go out on a limb, and venture that aggressive commercial interests
        are at least equal to the need for technological progress.

        On the other hand (there's always another hand), acquiring a commercial
        edge provides the wherewithal for sustaining technological progress.

        It's a two way road, where the mileage in each direction may vary, and
        varies.

        > Is it not time for
        > the customers to say their word? Maybe some forum members that are
        > greater experts than I am, and the Redlers themselves, might advice us
        > about these matters.

        I am no expert (thanks God for small favors), but as an end user and end
        consumer (payer) I can't but notice that the recent "new" OS big cats,
        Snow Leopard and now Lion are significantly less expensive than the
        previous ones.

        My 2¢ (no pun intended).

        Caveat emptor.

        Have a fine week end.
        Charly
      • Gideon Goldenberg
        The introduction of the Lion X Operating System is now expected very soon. As always when the OS is changed we have good reason to worry. When Snow Leopard was
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 1, 2011
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          The introduction of the Lion X Operating System is now expected very soon. As always when the OS is changed we have good reason to worry. When Snow Leopard was introduced it stopped supporting ".otf" fonts and the use of the Character Viewer in Mellel was neutralized. For the Open Type fonts we were told to change the suffix to ".ttf" and it worked; the usefulness of the Character Viewer could not be recovered. Can we be sure that Mellel’s self-support of all fonts will not be injured? And what about the Character Viewer or other (maybe more serious) problems?
          I may be mistaken, but I strongly suspect that the ever changing systems, always followed by stopping the support of former ones, is not just the outcome of technological progress, but the frequent changes are rather motivated by aggressive commercial interests. Is it not time for the customers to say their word? Maybe some forum members that are greater experts than I am, and the Redlers themselves, might advice us about these matters.
          Gideon.
        • Gideon Goldenberg
          Thank you, Janet. I am now aware of the ongoing discussion about Mellel and Lion. I am one of those who depend on Mellel, since there is no word-processor in
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 1, 2011
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            Thank you, Janet. I am now aware of the ongoing discussion about Mellel and Lion. I am one of those who depend on Mellel, since there is no word-processor in the whole world that enables multilingual work with LTR and RTL alike and supports all my otf and ttf fonts Unicode and non-Unicode. I don’t care if it takes some time to make things work (the rule of thumb: never jump to upgrade an OS immediately), but Character Viewer Glyph option still does not work on Mellel since Snow Leopard. I am just afraid.

            Gideon.

            On 1 Jul 2011, at 10:24, Janet S.S. Nussbaum wrote:

            > Gideon,
            >
            > There's a on-going discussion on Mellel & Lion on the Mellel Forum which you should read:
            >
            > http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2555
            >
            > Janet S.S. Nussbaum
            > Kiriat Ono, Israel
            >
            > ג'נט נוסבאום
            > קרית אונו
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On 1 Jul2011, at 11:55 PM, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:
            >
            >> The introduction of the Lion X Operating System is now expected very soon. As always when the OS is changed we have good reason to worry. When Snow Leopard was introduced it stopped supporting ".otf" fonts and the use of the Character Viewer in Mellel was neutralized. For the Open Type fonts we were told to change the suffix to ".ttf" and it worked; the usefulness of the Character Viewer could not be recovered. Can we be sure that Mellel’s self-support of all fonts will not be injured? And what about the Character Viewer or other (maybe more serious) problems?
            >> I may be mistaken, but I strongly suspect that the ever changing systems, always followed by stopping the support of former ones, is not just the outcome of technological progress, but the frequent changes are rather motivated by aggressive commercial interests. Is it not time for the customers to say their word? Maybe some forum members that are greater experts than I am, and the Redlers themselves, might advice us about these matters.
            >> Gideon.
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Janet S.S. Nussbaum
            I ve never used the Character Viewer Glyph option, but i do use Character Viewer Code Tables quite a lot and have no difficulty with it, so 1. in what way is
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 1, 2011
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              I've never used the Character Viewer Glyph option, but i do use Character Viewer Code Tables quite a lot and have no difficulty with it, so

              1. in what way is the Glyph option better for you? What is your work flow that makes the Glyph more suitable?

              2. in what way doesn't it work? I just took a quick glance at it and it seems to be functioning correctly [with OS 10.6.7 and Mellel 2.8.2]

              3. Have you raised a question about your problem either here or in the Forum? I don't recall any discussion on the issue.

              Janet S.S. Nussbaum
              Kiriat Ono, Israel

              ג'נט נוסבאום
              קרית אונו





              On 2 Jul2011, at 2:22 AM, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:

              > Thank you, Janet. I am now aware of the ongoing discussion about Mellel and Lion. I am one of those who depend on Mellel, since there is no word-processor in the whole world that enables multilingual work with LTR and RTL alike and supports all my otf and ttf fonts Unicode and non-Unicode. I don’t care if it takes some time to make things work (the rule of thumb: never jump to upgrade an OS immediately), but Character Viewer Glyph option still does not work on Mellel since Snow Leopard. I am just afraid.
              >
              > Gideon.
              >
              > On 1 Jul 2011, at 10:24, Janet S.S. Nussbaum wrote:
              >
              >> Gideon,
              >>
              >> There's a on-going discussion on Mellel & Lion on the Mellel Forum which you should read:
              >>
              >> http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2555
              >>
              >> Janet S.S. Nussbaum
              >> Kiriat Ono, Israel
              >>
              >> ג'נט נוסבאום
              >> קרית אונו
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> On 1 Jul2011, at 11:55 PM, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:
              >>
              >>> The introduction of the Lion X Operating System is now expected very soon. As always when the OS is changed we have good reason to worry. When Snow Leopard was introduced it stopped supporting ".otf" fonts and the use of the Character Viewer in Mellel was neutralized. For the Open Type fonts we were told to change the suffix to ".ttf" and it worked; the usefulness of the Character Viewer could not be recovered. Can we be sure that Mellel’s self-support of all fonts will not be injured? And what about the Character Viewer or other (maybe more serious) problems?
              >>> I may be mistaken, but I strongly suspect that the ever changing systems, always followed by stopping the support of former ones, is not just the outcome of technological progress, but the frequent changes are rather motivated by aggressive commercial interests. Is it not time for the customers to say their word? Maybe some forum members that are greater experts than I am, and the Redlers themselves, might advice us about these matters.
              >>> Gideon.
              >>>
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Gideon Goldenberg
              ... Only the glyph option gives the signs in exactly the font you need, Unicode and non-Unicode alike. I am working with files some of whom were brought from
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 2, 2011
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                On 2 Jul 2011, at 7:1, Janet S.S. Nussbaum wrote:

                I've never used the Character Viewer Glyph option, but i do use Character Viewer Code Tables quite a lot and have no difficulty with it, so

                1.  in what way is the Glyph option better for you?  What is your work flow that makes the Glyph more suitable?
                Only the glyph option gives the signs in exactly the font you need, Unicode and non-Unicode alike. I am working with files some of whom were brought from an older computer and earlier operation systems, and I need to make transcriptions from various scripts or to use non-roman scripts that have signs not represented on the keyboard. There exist various type faces, and the “Code Tables” and “All Characters” options just bring out one of them that they chose for you; to correct it is impossible if the font is not Unicode. I had to use PopChar in such cases.

                2.  in what way doesn't it work?  I just took a quick glance at it and it seems to be functioning correctly [with OS 10.6.7 and Mellel 2.8.2]
                Glyph is neutralized in Mellel since Snow Leopard came in.


                3.  Have you raised a question about your problem either here or in the Forum?  I don't recall any discussion on the issue.

                I asked for the Mellel support and this was the answer I got on 3/5/2010:

                Hi Gideon,

                I apologize for the long neglect.

                I have been using the Character Viewer – the upper side of the "glyph"
                palette – impeccably in the Leopard system. In the Snow Leopard this
                most useful option does not work (for me as for others); I mean that it
                seems disabled somehow and would not insert the required character.
                What remains is the possibility to use the "Code Tables" or "All
                Charecters" options. This problem appeared only after the upgrading
                to Snow Leopard, and only in Mellel and NeoOffice. The Character
                Viewer works in full with no problems in Mail, Safari and Firefox search
                boxes, in TextEdit, Word an in Nisus Writer Pro.

                The programs you mentioned (Text Edit, Mail etc.) use the cocoa text engine which support insertion of glyphs. At the moment, Mellel (as well as NeoOffice) do not support it. I believe that you only saw this with Snow Leopard because in previous systems the OS would notice that the glyph insertion protocol doesn't work and then use the normal character insertion protocol, with Snow Leopard this policy was changed.

                Best regards,

                Eyal Redler


                Janet S.S. Nussbaum
                Kiriat Ono, Israel

                ג'נט נוסבאום
                קרית אונו

                Thank you, Janet,
                Gideon Goldenberg.




                On 2 Jul2011, at 2:22 AM, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:

                Thank you, Janet.  I am now aware of the ongoing discussion about Mellel and Lion. I am one of those who depend on Mellel, since there is no word-processor in the whole world that enables multilingual work with LTR and RTL alike and supports all my otf and ttf fonts Unicode and non-Unicode. I don’t care if it takes some time to make things work (the rule of thumb: never jump to upgrade an OS immediately), but Character Viewer Glyph option still does not work on Mellel since Snow Leopard. I am just afraid.

                Gideon.

                On 1 Jul 2011, at 10:24, Janet S.S. Nussbaum wrote:

                Gideon,

                There's a on-going discussion on Mellel & Lion on the Mellel Forum which you should read:

                http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2555

                Janet S.S. Nussbaum
                Kiriat Ono, Israel

                ג'נט נוסבאום
                קרית אונו





                On 1 Jul2011, at 11:55 PM, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:

                The introduction of the Lion X Operating System is now expected very soon. As always when the OS is changed we have good reason to worry. When Snow Leopard was introduced it stopped supporting ".otf" fonts and the use of the Character Viewer in Mellel was neutralized. For the Open Type fonts we were told to change the suffix to ".ttf" and it worked; the usefulness of the Character Viewer could not be recovered. Can we be sure that Mellel’s self-support of all fonts will not be injured? And what about the Character Viewer or other (maybe more serious) problems?
                I may be mistaken, but I strongly suspect that the ever changing systems, always followed by stopping the support of former ones, is not just the outcome of technological progress, but the frequent changes are rather motivated by aggressive commercial interests. Is it not time for the customers to say their word? Maybe some forum members that are greater experts than I am, and the Redlers themselves, might advice us about these matters.
                Gideon.

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              • Sorin Paliga
                Gideon Font behaviour is also crucial to me. I have not noticed any misbehaviour of Mellel or other apps so far, at least with my documents dealing mainly with
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 30, 2011
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                  Gideon

                  Font behaviour is also crucial to me. I have not noticed any misbehaviour of Mellel or other apps so far, at least with my documents dealing mainly with linguistic and dialectal transcriptions.
                  Importing files created with older generations of applications and / or fonts has always been a problem, so  I wonder how to solve it easily. For importing Old Church Slavonic files, I created a parser to be used with Nisus – this is an idea I first shared with the Redlers, many years ago, and long before Nisus was re-written for Mac OS X. The converter is simple enough, e.g.
                  If original char has encoding xxx [in the Roman block] change it to yyy [in the Unicode 5.x block]

                  This would alleviate our life, especially with files like yours. Creating such a ‘unicodifier’ is not very difficult, it took me some two hours to complete, and some other 1 hour to refine it, but it works.

                  Best
                  On 30.07.2011, at 19:36, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:

                   

                  It was encouraging to find on the website a message from nvalvo dated 20th July telling us that Mellel worked
                  fine with Lion, but since I have got large texts imported from Mac OS 9, mulilingual and bidirectional in various fonts some of which are not Unicode, I need to know for sure that all fonts are supported. In the past there were problems and we were advised to change suffixes (.otf to .ttf), then the glyph character viewer stopped working on Snow Leopard (and is still not working). Mellel’s independent support for fonts is one of its most important features.
                  I have no complaints against the Redlers about preferring to work on the real thing when a new OS has come out. If everything is settled a couple of months after the release of a new OS it is all right for me. As a rule of thumb one need not rush to upgrading an operation system as if it were a new volume of Harry Potter for schoolchildren, but I need to be informed as fully as possible how all fonts in all strange languages work with Lion so that I can know when it will be safe to upgrade.
                  For any reliable information we all shall be grateful.
                  Gideon.



                • behnamrassi
                  This is not quite on the topic, but somehow related. For Arabic script, Mellel was relying on a particular text rendition of Apple fonts which was no longer
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 30, 2011
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                    This is not quite on the topic, but somehow related.
                    For Arabic script, Mellel was relying on a particular text rendition of Apple fonts which was no longer functional with the Arabic system font of Mac OS 10.6 (Geeza Pro). I have no experience with 10.5 but in Tiger, Geeza Pro was compatible with that rendering engine and not so in 10.6
                    In 10.7 Geeza Pro is changed again and became compatible with the way Mellel is using Apple fonts again.
                    I only installed Lion on an external drive yesterday and this is the first thing I noticed.

                    --- In redlex@yahoogroups.com, Sorin Paliga <sorin.paliga@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gideon
                    >
                    > Font behaviour is also crucial to me. I have not noticed any misbehaviour of Mellel or other apps so far, at least with my documents dealing mainly with linguistic and dialectal transcriptions.
                    > Importing files created with older generations of applications and / or fonts has always been a problem, so I wonder how to solve it easily. For importing Old Church Slavonic files, I created a parser to be used with Nisus – this is an idea I first shared with the Redlers, many years ago, and long before Nisus was re-written for Mac OS X. The converter is simple enough, e.g.
                    > If original char has encoding xxx [in the Roman block] change it to yyy [in the Unicode 5.x block]
                    >
                    > This would alleviate our life, especially with files like yours. Creating such a `unicodifier' is not very difficult, it took me some two hours to complete, and some other 1 hour to refine it, but it works.
                    >
                    > Best
                    > On 30.07.2011, at 19:36, Gideon Goldenberg wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > It was encouraging to find on the website a message from nvalvo dated 20th July telling us that Mellel worked
                    > > fine with Lion, but since I have got large texts imported from Mac OS 9, mulilingual and bidirectional in various fonts some of which are not Unicode, I need to know for sure that all fonts are supported. In the past there were problems and we were advised to change suffixes (.otf to .ttf), then the glyph character viewer stopped working on Snow Leopard (and is still not working). Mellel's independent support for fonts is one of its most important features.
                    > > I have no complaints against the Redlers about preferring to work on the real thing when a new OS has come out. If everything is settled a couple of months after the release of a new OS it is all right for me. As a rule of thumb one need not rush to upgrading an operation system as if it were a new volume of Harry Potter for schoolchildren, but I need to be informed as fully as possible how all fonts in all strange languages work with Lion so that I can know when it will be safe to upgrade.
                    > > For any reliable information we all shall be grateful.
                    > > Gideon.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Gideon Goldenberg
                    It was encouraging to find on the website a message from nvalvo dated 20th July telling us that Mellel worked fine with Lion, but since I have got large texts
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 30, 2011
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                      It was encouraging to find on the website a message from nvalvo dated 20th July telling us that Mellel worked
                      fine with Lion, but since I have got large texts imported from Mac OS 9, mulilingual and bidirectional in various fonts some of which are not Unicode, I need to know for sure that all fonts are supported. In the past there were problems and we were advised to change suffixes (.otf to .ttf), then the glyph character viewer stopped working on Snow Leopard (and is still not working). Mellel’s independent support for fonts is one of its most important features.
                      I have no complaints against the Redlers about preferring to work on the real thing when a new OS has come out. If everything is settled a couple of months after the release of a new OS it is all right for me. As a rule of thumb one need not rush to upgrading an operation system as if it were a new volume of Harry Potter for schoolchildren, but I need to be informed as fully as possible how all fonts in all strange languages work with Lion so that I can know when it will be safe to upgrade.
                      For any reliable information we all shall be grateful.
                      Gideon.

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