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Re: RH Linux 7.3 help needed

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  • kadlam262
    Thank you for your response. root does not work as a password. BTW, I ve also tried booting with debian 4.0ETCH and fedora 10 and ubuntu...none of which take
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 7, 2009
      Thank you for your response.
      root does not work as a password.

      BTW, I've also tried booting with debian 4.0ETCH and fedora 10 and ubuntu...none of which take now that I have this damned RH on my machine. I seem to be stuck in no-where land and it's not only frustrating but it's pushing me away from experimenting with anything that has the RH label.



      --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 09:34:52PM -0000, kadlam262 wrote:
      > > Hello:
      > >
      > > I'm new to this group and new to Linux.
      > >
      > > My weekend project is to take my old desktop and change the OS to Linux so I can start learning it. So I booted the machine using an evaluation version of Red Hat Linux 7.3 that I had sitting in a drawer for years. Boot and loading went fine. However, I need a password. There is not a clue about this necessity on the red two-disk holder.
      > >
      > > So, I have this great new OS just waiting for me to try it out but I can't get into it because I don't have a login or password. How silly is that?
      > >
      > > For what it's worth, on boot, when I have the the option of running "Red Hat Linux (2.4.18-3)" at the top of the monitor there is the message "Grub Version 0.91."
      > >
      >
      > I don't remember, but honestly, you're looking for trouble using such an
      > old version. The 2.4 kernel is ancient, as is RH 7.3 It's more or less
      > the equivalent of trying to find things for Windows 95.
      >
      > If you have a broadband connection, you're much better off downloading
      > either Fedora 10, which despite all its faults, is aimed at the desktop
      > user, or CentOS 5.2, which is the equivalent of RHEL 5.2.
      >
      >
      > > Are there standard login/password for running evaluation versions? I fear there is a rediculously simple answer to this problem but I'm open to being humiliated if I can just get this darned thing working.
      > >
      >
      > I don't remember 7.3 at all, to be honest--you can try root as the
      > password. I don't recollect it needing a password, but my memory on it
      > is quite hazy.
      >
      >
      > --
      > Scott Robbins
      > PGP keyID EB3467D6
      > ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
      > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
      >
      > Spike: Do I have anyone on watch here? It's called security,
      > people. Are you all asleep? Or did we finally find a restaurant
      > that delivers?
      > Ford: I know who you are.
      > Spike: Yeah, I know who I am too, so what?
      >
    • Scott
      ... Firstly--PLEASE take a look at the list faq at http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu/linfaq.html. Pay special attention to the netiquette section.
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 7, 2009
        On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 01:47:34AM -0000, kadlam262 wrote:
        > Thank you for your response.
        > root does not work as a password.
        >
        > BTW, I've also tried booting with debian 4.0ETCH and fedora 10 and ubuntu...none of which take now that I have this damned RH on my machine. I seem to be stuck in no-where land and it's not only frustrating but it's pushing me away from experimenting with anything that has the RH label.
        >
        >
        Firstly--PLEASE take a look at the list faq at
        http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu/linfaq.html. Pay special
        attention to the netiquette section. Messages that are top posted and
        not trimmed may not be approved by the moderators and are also very
        likely to be ignored by the people most able to help you.

        Now, speaking of the faq, although it's quite dated, parts of it besides
        the netiquette section are still useful. Try the solution given there
        for forgotten root password, booting into single user mode and setting
        it there.


        --
        Scott Robbins
        PGP keyID EB3467D6
        ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
        gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



        Cordelia: If the world doesn't end, I'm gonna need a note.
      • Thad Floryan
        ... That brings back some unpleasant memories of early Red Hat releases circa mid-/late-1990s. I recall several HDs that could not be reused for anything after
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 7, 2009
          --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "kadlam262" <kadlam262@...> wrote:
          > [...]
          > BTW, I've also tried booting with debian 4.0ETCH and fedora 10 and
          > ubuntu...none of which take now that I have this damned RH on my
          > machine. I seem to be stuck in no-where land and it's not only
          > frustrating but it's pushing me away from experimenting with anything
          >that has the RH label.

          That brings back some unpleasant memories of early Red Hat releases
          circa mid-/late-1990s. I recall several HDs that could not be reused
          for anything after a RH install until after a complete low-level
          reformat.

          Whatever RH did back then was akin to today's persisent viruses which
          affect Windows systems; more than just the MBR (Master Boot Record)
          was altered as I recall.

          One easy way to "clear" the errant RH data would be to boot a Linux
          Live CD such as the Ubuntu one you have and open a terminal window
          per:

          Applications (at the top left) -> Accessories -> Terminal

          then enter the following command in the terminal window:

          dd count=1 if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda

          The "if=/dev/zero" means an input "file" of zeroes, "of=/dev/sda"
          means the output file is your hard disk, and the "count=1" means copy
          one sector's worth of zeroes to the hard disk. Changing "count=1" to,
          say, "count=10" will assure all the nasties are cleared and you should
          be good to go.

          The dd command using a Live CD is an easier and faster solution than
          a stand-alone low-level formatter (which we had to use 10+ years ago).
        • Jeff Lane
          ... Huh? I ve been in and around Red Hat since 5.1 and I ve NEVER had an issue with re-installing, or even putting a different OS on after a Red Hat install.
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 9, 2009
            On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
            > That brings back some unpleasant memories of early Red Hat releases
            > circa mid-/late-1990s. I recall several HDs that could not be reused
            > for anything after a RH install until after a complete low-level
            > reformat.

            Huh? I've been in and around Red Hat since 5.1 and I've NEVER had an
            issue with re-installing, or even putting a different OS on after a
            Red Hat install. The ONLY issue I ever saw was WRT to putting windows
            on after, but I think that was more a problem with Windows not being
            able to "see" a partition that had a lable of 82 or 83 (the standard
            Linux partition types). Even in those cases, changing the lable via
            fdisk was all that was required. But either way, I've never had to
            low-level format a drive just to remove a Red Hat install...

            HOWEVER, that is just my experience, so YMMV...

            > One easy way to "clear" the errant RH data would be to boot a Linux
            > Live CD such as the Ubuntu one you have and open a terminal window
            > per:


            I'm more interested in the statement he made before that... the "I've
            tried Fedora 10 and it won't take"... makes it sound like a failed
            skin graft...

            What does "It won't take" actually mean? He can't install it? He CAN
            install it, but can't boot it? He installs, grub tries to boot it,
            but grub can't find the boot partition?

            Oh well... I guess I should go back to pretending to work now...

            Cheers,
            Jeff
          • Thad Floryan
            ... RH 5.1 is circa 1998-1999. The problem(s) I mentioned with a RedHat install were circa 1995-1997 (RH versions 2.* through 4.2) for x86 platforms; the
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 9, 2009
              --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Lane <sundowner225@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
              > > That brings back some unpleasant memories of early Red Hat releases
              > > circa mid-/late-1990s. I recall several HDs that could not be reused
              > > for anything after a RH install until after a complete low-level
              > > reformat.
              >
              > Huh? I've been in and around Red Hat since 5.1 and I've NEVER had an
              > issue with re-installing, or even putting a different OS on after a
              > Red Hat install. The ONLY issue I ever saw was WRT to putting windows
              > on after, but I think that was more a problem with Windows not being
              > able to "see" a partition that had a lable of 82 or 83 (the standard
              > Linux partition types). Even in those cases, changing the lable via
              > fdisk was all that was required. But either way, I've never had to
              > low-level format a drive just to remove a Red Hat install...

              RH 5.1 is circa 1998-1999. The problem(s) I mentioned with a RedHat
              install were circa 1995-1997 (RH versions 2.* through 4.2) for x86
              platforms; the RedHat 4.2 for SPARCs didn't have the problem (but,
              then, SunOS was the only real alternate OS for such hardware; in fact
              I used SunOS to clear the disk(s) :-) FWIW, I still have one Sun IPX
              (sun4c SPARC architecture) running RedHat 4.2.

              > [...]
              > I'm more interested in the statement he made before that... the
              > "I've tried Fedora 10 and it won't take"... makes it sound like a
              > failed skin graft...
              >
              > What does "It won't take" actually mean? He can't install it? He
              > CAN install it, but can't boot it? He installs, grub tries to boot
              > it, but grub can't find the boot partition?

              My recollection of the problem (12-13 years ago) was that RedHat did
              "something" to the disk that prevented installing anything else to be
              able to reuse the disk(s) for other OSs. Back then disks were pricey
              even though only 1+ to 5GB or so, and a low-level format was the only
              solution. I "may" still have one of those disks, uncorrected, in my
              stash of old disks. If I can locate the disk tonight (I remember I put
              a PostIt on it), I'll put it in an external USB case and examine it.

              This still doesn't explain why RH 7.3 (after your use of 5.1) per the OP
              has a (similar) problem. After 4.2 (and earlier), the next RedHat
              distributions I have are 8 and 9 (with RH 9 still running fine on one
              of my laptops since 2003).
            • Jeff Lane
              ... Ahhh... 95-97... sigh.. back when I was busy downloading Slackware from BBSs :-) Like I said, YMMV... I had never really heard about things like that. The
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 9, 2009
                On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
                > RH 5.1 is circa 1998-1999. The problem(s) I mentioned with a RedHat
                > install were circa 1995-1997 (RH versions 2.* through 4.2) for x86
                > platforms; the RedHat 4.2 for SPARCs didn't have the problem (but,
                > then, SunOS was the only real alternate OS for such hardware; in fact
                > I used SunOS to clear the disk(s) :-) FWIW, I still have one Sun IPX
                > (sun4c SPARC architecture) running RedHat 4.2.

                Ahhh... 95-97... sigh.. back when I was busy downloading Slackware from BBSs :-)

                Like I said, YMMV... I had never really heard about things like that.
                The only real hard drive problems I ever encountered were problems
                with disk overlay way back when... so that's a new (and old) one for
                me... Now you've got me curious though about what exactly they did to
                cause an issue like making a hard disk useless.

                FWIW, I have a stack of old IPX and IPC boxes... but they all have
                Solaris on them, IIRC... and they really aren't good for anything
                beyond doorstops :-) I'm surprised my wife hasn't disappeared them yet
                while I'm at work and can't stop her...

                > This still doesn't explain why RH 7.3 (after your use of 5.1) per the OP
                > has a (similar) problem. After 4.2 (and earlier), the next RedHat
                > distributions I have are 8 and 9 (with RH 9 still running fine on one
                > of my laptops since 2003).

                Indeed... I worked at Red Hat from 6.2 to 7.2 and we never heard of
                this kind of thing happening back then. And from what I understand,
                there are still production 6.2 boxes on the internet running web sites
                and such.
              • Thad Floryan
                ... If I can find the one old disk tonight and find the time to analyze what might be the source of the problem, we might learn something. The problem was real
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 9, 2009
                  --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Lane <sundowner225@...> wrote:
                  > [...]
                  > Like I said, YMMV... I had never really heard about things like
                  > that.
                  > The only real hard drive problems I ever encountered were problems
                  > with disk overlay way back when... so that's a new (and old) one for
                  > me... Now you've got me curious though about what exactly they did
                  > to cause an issue like making a hard disk useless.

                  If I can find the one old disk tonight and find the time to analyze
                  what might be the source of the problem, we might learn something.

                  The problem was real and angered me (at the time) much like the OP,
                  which is why there's a gap between RH 4.2 and RH 8 in my collection.

                  > FWIW, I have a stack of old IPX and IPC boxes... but they all have
                  > Solaris on them, IIRC... and they really aren't good for anything
                  > beyond doorstops :-) I'm surprised my wife hasn't disappeared them
                  > yet while I'm at work and can't stop her...

                  The IPXs weren't that bad *IF* one replaced the CPU with the Weitek
                  "Power uP" replacement (80 MHz for Weitek, 40 MHz for Sun's SPARC).
                  I still have 5 of them and they work fine when I occasionally still
                  use them. All mine are Weitek'd.

                  > > This still doesn't explain why RH 7.3 (after your use of 5.1) per
                  > > the OP has a (similar) problem. After 4.2 (and earlier), the next
                  > > RedHat distributions I have are 8 and 9 (with RH 9 still running
                  > > fine on one of my laptops since 2003).
                  >
                  > Indeed... I worked at Red Hat from 6.2 to 7.2 and we never heard of
                  > this kind of thing happening back then. And from what I understand,
                  > there are still production 6.2 boxes on the internet running web
                  > sites and such.

                  A good OS will endure. :-)

                  I didn't realize how many Red Hat and Fedora systems I have here:

                  <http://thadlabs.com/PIX/Thad_desk.jpg>

                  18 systems appear in that picture and there are 2 more since that pic
                  was taken several months ago. Two of the systems are running RH 9,
                  then there's Fedora Core 2 along with Fedora 8, 9 and 10, then a
                  CentOS 5.2 and other misc. including Solaris, FreeBSD, SLED, Ubuntu,
                  etc. Another room has the IPXs and 10 more SPARCstations and other
                  misc. computers including 3 AT&T 3B1s (aka UNIXpc aka PC7300). :-)
                • Dan
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 9, 2009
                    Thad Floryan wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com <mailto:redhat%40yahoogroups.com>, Jeff
                    > Lane <sundowner225@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 1:34 AM, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
                    > > > That brings back some unpleasant memories of early Red Hat releases
                    > > > circa mid-/late-1990s. I recall several HDs that could not be reused
                    > > > for anything after a RH install until after a complete low-level
                    >


                    >
                    > I dont even respond to RH9 and previous posts.
                    > The question is almost never "how to tell him how to do it"
                    > But rather "why is he using that rather then RHEL4 or RHEL5 or the
                    > current Fedora Core....."
                    >
                    > It is like the people who come to me and say "I heard you know how to
                    > work on computers"
                    > I know I am about to have to shut someone down......because invariably
                    > they want me to spend all weekend making thier 10 year old computer
                    > work like the latest and greatest computer for $20. And they refuse to
                    > understand answers like "your computer is incapable of running XP, it
                    > is too old and you only have an 8 gig hard drive". So I spend a
                    > frustrating hour with someone getting pissed off at me...
                    >
                    > Now I just say "no I don't, I only work on computers for $75 an hour,
                    > you are better off going to best buy"
                    >





                    > RH 5.1 is circa 1998-1999. The problem(s) I mentioned with a RedHat
                    > install were circa 1995-1997 (RH versions 2.* through 4.2) for x86
                    > platforms; the RedHat 4.2 for SPARCs didn't have the problem (but,
                    > then, SunOS was the only real alternate OS for such hardware; in fact
                    > I used SunOS to clear the disk(s) :-) FWIW, I still have one Sun IPX
                    > (sun4c SPARC architecture) running RedHat 4.2.
                    >
                    > > [...]
                    > > I'm more interested in the statement he made before that... the
                    > > "I've tried Fedora 10 and it won't take"... makes it sound like a
                    > > failed skin graft...
                    > >
                    > > What does "It won't take" actually mean? He can't install it? He
                    > > CAN install it, but can't boot it? He installs, grub tries to boot
                    > > it, but grub can't find the boot partition?
                    >
                    > My recollection of the problem (12-13 years ago) was that RedHat did
                    > "something" to the disk that prevented installing anything else to be
                    > able to reuse the disk(s) for other OSs. Back then disks were pricey
                    > even though only 1+ to 5GB or so, and a low-level format was the only
                    > solution. I "may" still have one of those disks, uncorrected, in my
                    > stash of old disks. If I can locate the disk tonight (I remember I put
                    > a PostIt on it), I'll put it in an external USB case and examine it.
                    >
                    > This still doesn't explain why RH 7.3 (after your use of 5.1) per the OP
                    > has a (similar) problem. After 4.2 (and earlier), the next RedHat
                    > distributions I have are 8 and 9 (with RH 9 still running fine on one
                    > of my laptops since 2003).
                    >
                    >
                  • kadlam262
                    ... Thanks, Jeff (and other who have tried to help. OK, today I created a debian boot disk off their website (debian-500-i386-netinst.iso). Tried to re-boot
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 9, 2009
                      --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Lane <sundowner225@...> wrote:
                      Thanks, Jeff (and other who have tried to help. OK, today I created a debian boot disk off their website (debian-500-i386-netinst.iso). Tried to re-boot the machine with red-hat on it and it doesn't work. I've the bios set to start with the CD rom drive first and I can see the light come but then after that, it goes right into booting up from the redhat this is now on the hard drive. So I'm still looking for the easy answer... Login and Password.
                      Ken
                    • kadlam262
                      ... This IS a useful FAQ and much appreciated. ... I m going to read that FAQ completely and then I m going to take 15-steps back and start over in my entire
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 10, 2009
                        --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 01:47:34AM -0000, kadlam262 wrote:
                        > > Thank you for your response.
                        > > root does not work as a password.
                        > >
                        > > BTW, I've also tried booting with debian 4.0ETCH and fedora 10 and ubuntu...none of which take now that I have this damned RH on my machine. I seem to be stuck in no-where land and it's not only frustrating but it's pushing me away from experimenting with anything that has the RH label.

                        > >
                        > >
                        > Firstly--PLEASE take a look at the list faq at
                        > http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu/linfaq.html. Pay special
                        > attention to the netiquette section. Messages that are top posted and
                        > not trimmed may not be approved by the moderators and are also very
                        > likely to be ignored by the people most able to help you.
                        This IS a useful FAQ and much appreciated. >
                        > Now, speaking of the faq, although it's quite dated, parts of it besides
                        > the netiquette section are still useful. Try the solution given there
                        > for forgotten root password, booting into single user mode and setting
                        > it there.
                        I'm going to read that FAQ completely and then I'm going to take 15-steps back and start over in my entire approach to getting up and running with Linux AND using this forum as a source of information. All very helpful. Thanks.

                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Scott Robbins
                        > PGP keyID EB3467D6
                        > ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                        > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Cordelia: If the world doesn't end, I'm gonna need a note.
                        >
                      • Scott
                        ... The FAQ is probably only useful technically if you stick with the rather ancient RH 7. :) Someone is supposd to take it over, but their real life keeps
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 10, 2009
                          On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 12:42:35PM -0000, kadlam262 wrote:
                          > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 01:47:34AM -0000, kadlam262 wrote:
                          > > > Thank you for your response.
                          > > > root does not work as a password.


                          > > http://home.roadrunner.com/~computertaijutsu/linfaq.html. Pay special
                          > > attention to the netiquette section. Messages that are top posted and
                          > > not trimmed may not be approved by the moderators and are also very
                          > > likely to be ignored by the people most able to help you.
                          > This IS a useful FAQ and much appreciated. >
                          > > Now, speaking of the faq, although it's quite dated, parts of it besides
                          > > the netiquette section are still useful. Try the solution given there
                          > > for forgotten root password, booting into single user mode and setting
                          > > it there.
                          > I'm going to read that FAQ completely and then I'm going to take 15-steps back and start over in my entire approach to getting up and running with Linux AND using this forum as a source of information. All very helpful. Thanks.
                          >
                          > >

                          The FAQ is probably only useful technically if you stick with the rather
                          ancient RH 7. :) Someone is supposd to take it over, but their real
                          life keeps getting in the way.

                          You will find though, that you'll find things, (as a rule) much easier
                          using more up to date distributions.


                          --
                          Scott Robbins
                          PGP keyID EB3467D6
                          ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
                          gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6


                          Wesley: Back, creature of the night! Leave this place!
                          Evil Willow: Don't wanna.
                          Wesley: (threatens with holy water)
                          Evil Willow: (sighs) Whatever.
                        • Thad Floryan
                          ... No I did not.
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 10, 2009
                            --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Dan <hyattdj@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thad Floryan wrote:
                            > > [...]
                            > > I dont even respond to RH9 and previous posts.
                            > > The question is almost never "how to tell him how to do it"
                            > > But rather "why is he using that rather then RHEL4 or RHEL5 or the
                            > > current Fedora Core....."

                            No I did not.
                          • Dan
                            ... I basically stopped reading most of the posts because there were so many posts that should have been rejected. I am going to have to start actively
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 10, 2009
                              Thad Floryan wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com <mailto:redhat%40yahoogroups.com>, Dan
                              > <hyattdj@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thad Floryan wrote:
                              > > > [...]
                              > > > I dont even respond to RH9 and previous posts.
                              > > > The question is almost never "how to tell him how to do it"
                              > > > But rather "why is he using that rather then RHEL4 or RHEL5 or the
                              > > > current Fedora Core....."
                              >
                              > No I did not
                              >












                              I basically stopped reading most of the posts because there were so many
                              posts that should have been rejected. I am going to have to start
                              actively moderating so I can reject these posts before they annoy the
                              rest of the system admins....this is how

                              "You are going to have to explain the compelling reason why you are
                              using a version more then 4 years old before I allow you to post it. If
                              you found these CDs at a garage sale, throw them away, download fedora
                              core or centos, and learn how to read and google first!

                              the other ongoing issue:
                              "We are not hired by your school to answer stupid and inane questions
                              posed by your teacher, my rate for tutoring in Linux is $100 an hour in
                              full hour increments payable in advance. Google is your friend, he is
                              free, get to know him! man page is another good resource, visit him first"

                              Moderator"











                              RedHat-beginers@yahoogroups.com


                              >
                              > __._,_.__
                            • Thad Floryan
                              ... To whom are you writing the above? The message to which I replied was incorrectly formatted (every line had a prefix) and had an erroneous attribution.
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 10, 2009
                                --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Dan <hyattdj@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thad Floryan wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com <mailto:redhat%40yahoogroups.com>, Dan
                                > > <hyattdj@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Thad Floryan wrote:
                                > > > > [...]
                                > > > > I dont even respond to RH9 and previous posts.
                                > > > > The question is almost never "how to tell him how to do it"
                                > > > > But rather "why is he using that rather then RHEL4 or RHEL5 or the
                                > > > > current Fedora Core....."
                                > >
                                > > No I did not
                                > >
                                >
                                > I basically stopped reading most of the posts because there were so
                                > many posts that should have been rejected. I am going to have to
                                > start actively moderating so I can reject these posts before they
                                > annoy the rest of the system admins....this is how
                                >
                                > "You are going to have to explain the compelling reason why you are
                                > using a version more then 4 years old before I allow you to post it.

                                To whom are you writing the above?

                                The message to which I replied was incorrectly formatted (every line
                                had a ">" prefix) and had an erroneous attribution.
                              • Jeff Lane
                                ... Ummm... I am that teacher, thank you very much... and I d like to think I don t ask inane questions... When I first joined this list so long ago, it was
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 11, 2009
                                  On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Dan <hyattdj@...> wrote:
                                  > the other ongoing issue:
                                  > "We are not hired by your school to answer stupid and inane questions
                                  > posed by your teacher, my rate for tutoring in Linux is $100 an hour in
                                  > full hour increments payable in advance. Google is your friend, he is
                                  > free, get to know him! man page is another good resource, visit him first"

                                  Ummm... I am that teacher, thank you very much... and I'd like to
                                  think I don't ask inane questions...

                                  When I first joined this list so long ago, it was because I could ask
                                  weird esoteric questions and get a reply by someone else who had
                                  experience or a different perspective... but also because there were
                                  newbies who needed help. This wasn't the advanced-redhat group, nor
                                  the redhat-system-administrators group, it was simply redhat and at
                                  the time at least, everyone was welcome, regardless of skill level or
                                  experience to ask questions and get some help in addition to learning.

                                  NOW, as a counter point, I also spend a good bit of time with my
                                  students telling them what the F/OSS community expects of them when
                                  they start posting to places like this asking for help. I explained a
                                  lot about how they will get far better responses and help if they try
                                  to find the answer first, then come to the group asking detailed
                                  specific questions, as opposed to "my internet doesn't work, u fix
                                  it."

                                  Anyway... calm down Dan :-) It's all good...
                                • Dan
                                  ... OK Jeff, There are times and ways for it to be appropriate for students to ask. I was referring to the period where I had to use the web Yahoo mail version
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 11, 2009
                                    Jeff Lane wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Dan <hyattdj@...
                                    > <mailto:hyattdj%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                                    > > the other ongoing issue:
                                    > > "We are not hired by your school to answer stupid and inane questions
                                    > > posed by your teacher, my rate for tutoring in Linux is $100 an hour in
                                    > > full hour increments payable in advance. Google is your friend, he is
                                    > > free, get to know him! man page is another good resource, visit him
                                    > first"
                                    >
                                    > Ummm... I am that teacher, thank you very much... and I'd like to
                                    > think I don't ask inane questions...
                                    >
                                    > When I first joined this list so long ago, it was because I could ask
                                    > weird esoteric questions and get a reply by someone else who had
                                    > experience or a different perspective... but also because there were
                                    > newbies who needed help. This wasn't the advanced-redhat group, nor
                                    > the redhat-system-administrators group, it was simply redhat and at
                                    > the time at least, everyone was welcome, regardless of skill level or
                                    > experience to ask questions and get some help in addition to learning.
                                    >
                                    > NOW, as a counter point, I also spend a good bit of time with my
                                    > students telling them what the F/OSS community expects of them when
                                    > they start posting to places like this asking for help. I explained a
                                    > lot about how they will get far better responses and help if they try
                                    > to find the answer first, then come to the group asking detailed
                                    > specific questions, as opposed to "my internet doesn't work, u fix
                                    > it."
                                    >
                                    > Anyway... calm down Dan :-) It's all good...
                                    >
                                    > __._,
























                                    OK Jeff,
                                    There are times and ways for it to be appropriate for students to ask.

                                    I was referring to the period where I had to use the web Yahoo mail
                                    version that sucks....
                                    And we had some guys who were obviously from a class in India, who
                                    neither had a UNIX or a RedHat book and were asking questions that were
                                    really out in left field. And there were 10 emails on the request each
                                    time before we figured that out. It would take me 2 minutes per email
                                    WHILE I WAS at work...
                                    Several senior members dropped off the list, and I howled and almost
                                    dropped off the list.

                                    I think there is a definite need for this mid level general list . I run
                                    into the problem myself when I go on the specific lists and ask what
                                    turns out to be an entry level question, and nobody will answer because
                                    it is not advanced enough. But here I can ask, "can someone tell me
                                    about high availability in RedHat" "How does RedHat compare to the
                                    other distributions" "whats all this about virtualization" and start a
                                    good discussion.....

                                    There are times and ways for it to be appropriate for students to ask.

                                    Sending 10 students on an assignment to ask up some stupid question on
                                    this list and come back with the answer is wrong and unfair to us. I
                                    think that is what an India school was doing. If they need to learn
                                    about the list they can easily do that by reading in the archives.

                                    It is fair to tell the student to read some list archives, google it,
                                    read the man page...and if they still have not found the answer say:
                                    Hello, I am in a class and the question is blah
                                    I have googled it and learned yaya, but still need to know more information
                                    The man page gave me information, but I still couldn't find my answer there.

                                    And yes, if I start teaching RedHat I will send them to this list...but
                                    I will tell them to listen, and if they want to ask a question, lead it
                                    off with
                                    " I am a student"










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                                  • Jeff Lane
                                    ... Heh... no worries, Dan... none at all. I wasn t really offended or anything like that, it s damn near impossible to offend me :-) I generally only
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 11, 2009
                                      On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Dan <hyattdj@...> wrote:

                                      > OK Jeff,
                                      > There are times and ways for it to be appropriate for students to ask.

                                      Heh... no worries, Dan... none at all. I wasn't really offended or
                                      anything like that, it's damn near impossible to offend me :-)

                                      I generally only read/respond on this list at work too, and I know
                                      what you mean. Most of the reason I don't post more than I do is
                                      because I usually just skim the list while in between setting up
                                      systems or doing something "work related" though I could argue that
                                      reading a list like this IS a productive use of some of my time...
                                      heh...

                                      I do so remember the days... I kinda wondered what happened to all the:

                                      how 2 make partition n UR disk?

                                      type questions... good moderating... or maybe they just got the
                                      hint... heh... I didn't think to tell my students to actually specify
                                      that they are students, though.. that's a really good idea, and I
                                      should have thought of that myself when I was giving the "how to find
                                      and get help in the OSS community" lecture... I'll pass that along to
                                      them though.

                                      I only do the class once a year, in the Spring semester. It's never a
                                      big class, 7 - 10 students max, but it's a fun class. I get to help
                                      create the next generation of *nix people, and in the process I get to
                                      find out what I really do know, and what I need to brush up on myself.

                                      It's really humbling sometimes, like when I had to try to explain
                                      exactly what mv and cp do, going beyond mv moves files, cp copies
                                      files... heh...

                                      hrmm... that's a good discussion topic too... basic, but I'm looking
                                      for more technical... new thread coming soon!

                                      Cheers
                                      Jeff

                                      --
                                      ------------------> Jeffrey Lane - W4KDH <-------------------
                                      www.jefflane.org
                                      Another cog in the great
                                      Corporate Wheel

                                      The internet has no government, no constitution, no laws, no
                                      rights, no police, no courts. Don't talk about fairness or
                                      innocence, and don't talk about what should be done. Instead,
                                      talk about what is being done and what will be done by the
                                      amorphous unreachable undefinable blob called "the internet
                                      user base." -Paul Vixie
                                    • Dan
                                      When someone is in computer school, I always have some computers they can fix, take apart and put back together. I am alway willing to give them some
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 11, 2009
                                        When someone is in computer school, I always have some computers they
                                        can fix, take apart and put back together. I am alway willing to give
                                        them some suggestions and technical help...

                                        I will never forget the two Oracle administrators who had the patience
                                        to grow my administration skills without much complaint.
                                        That it served them because they were not allowed to have root and I
                                        made myself always available to them was immaterial.
                                        Sometimes I would log in and step back and let them work when they were
                                        in a time crunch. Hey I was "supervising" so I had control.

                                        It would be nice to grow some entry level administrators into a team and
                                        be able to go around and do projects with people who do it well instead
                                        of their own way.

                                        I had thought of a couple of business ventures....One someone else
                                        started as Geek Squad.
                                        Others the big boys started, which was offering Linux servers on the web
                                        to small companies and geeks for low cost.

                                        I mean, how expensive is it to put older servers costing $500 apiece,
                                        running 2-4 linux servers on each, with fractal TIV line or whatever it
                                        is called for $600 a month. Some electricity and cooling. 99% uptime.

                                        Figure the servers last another two years so that is $25 a month, 1000
                                        software servers is $.60 a month for internet, Electricity and cooling
                                        another $10 a month each hardware server max.

                                        Charge extra for additional system administration. Saving them a bundle
                                        on hiring a system admin they could never afford.
                                        On site system administration is additional business..

                                        I tried to do this with working system admins, particularly with the
                                        windows guys. They would get $100 bill for 2 hours after work..even if
                                        they finished it in 45 minutes. No more then 5 miles out of their way.
                                        Setting up desktops, in office networks, etc etc. These guys were
                                        making $35 an hour salary.
                                        They all said yes, but then were too busy when the jobs came up.


                                        But I digress.
                                      • Jeff Lane
                                        A friend of mine had a similar idea, which was basically getting Sm-Med businesses who may have computers and systems but can t afford an IT dept full time to
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 11, 2009
                                          A friend of mine had a similar idea, which was basically getting
                                          Sm-Med businesses who may have computers and systems but can't afford
                                          an IT dept full time to outsource to him...

                                          They'd pay a retainer of $X per month or $Y per year an that would
                                          entitle them to so many hours per month on-site for 24/7 service, and
                                          remote administration when needed otherwise... plus offering them
                                          deals on complete solutions as well, like providing built systems +
                                          software...

                                          Never got off the ground, but given what he was targeting, typically
                                          the businesses that the ISVs and OEMs tend to ignore, there was/is a
                                          market.

                                          The basic idea though was that a small company doesn't really need a
                                          full time IT staff, so outsourcing that to a company that would handle
                                          it for them on an as-needed basis would be more cost-effective over
                                          all.

                                          J
                                        • Thad Floryan
                                          ... Teaching something is the best way to learn something, as I found out running the AT&T Silicon Valley UNIX Users Group for the extirety of its existence
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 12, 2009
                                            --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Lane <sundowner225@...> wrote:
                                            > [...]
                                            > I only do the class once a year, in the Spring semester. It's never a
                                            > big class, 7 - 10 students max, but it's a fun class. I get to help
                                            > create the next generation of *nix people, and in the process I get to
                                            > find out what I really do know, and what I need to brush up on myself.
                                            > [...]

                                            Teaching something is the best way to learn something, as I found out
                                            running the AT&T Silicon Valley UNIX Users Group for the extirety of
                                            its existence ('til the '90s, when AT&T abandoned (sold) its UNIX
                                            franchise to Novell).
                                          • Thad Floryan
                                            ... There is definitely a market for that -- it s what I was doing for decades until I made the misteak (sic) of becoming an employee of two companies that
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 13, 2009
                                              --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Lane <sundowner225@...> wrote:
                                              > [...]
                                              > Never got off the ground, but given what he was targeting, typically
                                              > the businesses that the ISVs and OEMs tend to ignore, there was/is a
                                              > market.
                                              >
                                              > The basic idea though was that a small company doesn't really need a
                                              > full time IT staff, so outsourcing that to a company that would handle
                                              > it for them on an as-needed basis would be more cost-effective over
                                              > all.

                                              There is definitely a market for that -- it's what I was doing for
                                              decades until I made the "misteak" (sic) of becoming an employee of
                                              two companies that went belly-up, Sigaba and Levanta (Linuxcare). The
                                              demise of Levanta last year was a real surprise given all the contracts
                                              and future prospects; the short story is here:

                                              <http://www.linux.com/feature/135838>
                                            • Jeff Lane
                                              ... Oh yeah... I forgot about that. I followed Linuxcare off and on from the time they started becoming known publically and was really disheartened when that
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Mar 13, 2009
                                                On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:10 AM, Thad Floryan <thad@...> wrote:
                                                > There is definitely a market for that -- it's what I was doing for
                                                > decades until I made the "misteak" (sic) of becoming an employee of
                                                > two companies that went belly-up, Sigaba and Levanta (Linuxcare). The
                                                > demise of Levanta last year was a real surprise given all the contracts
                                                > and future prospects; the short story is here:
                                                >
                                                > <http://www.linux.com/feature/135838>

                                                Oh yeah... I forgot about that. I followed Linuxcare off and on from
                                                the time they started becoming known publically and was really
                                                disheartened when that happened. That, of most of the linux
                                                businesses outside of distros, was the one thing I was sure would
                                                succeed.
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