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Re: [redhat] Re: Total newbie & Redhat 6.0

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  • Davey Brain
    ... Hi, Redhat 6 is a pretty stable version to run on older systems but security could be a problem. I would suggest if possible you upgrade to 6.1 or 6.2
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 6, 2003
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      nagendra_pratap_singh wrote thusly:
      > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "auwg" <auwg@h...> wrote:
      >
      >>Big question: What first-timer problems am I likely to run into by
      >>installing Linux on that box?
      >>Modem/video/mouse/CD/other drivers?
      >>Just all the usual stuff or all the usual stuff plus six levels of
      >>unique frustrations when I try to visit today's websites with java
      >>and all that stuff?
      >
      > mouse, cd, video shld be OK with new redhats. in older versions viedo
      > may not work but command line will work anyway. Pentium cannot be
      > recommended with X windows anyway. The real problems may come with
      > modems.
      > Still you can come here as long as you like. New Redhats are a lot
      > easier
      >
      > Nagendra Pratap Singh

      Hi,
      Redhat 6 is a pretty stable version to run on older systems but security
      could be a problem. I would suggest if possible you upgrade to 6.1 or
      6.2 though, or if you have the bandwidth DL the 7.3 version. I am far
      from an expert and am really just a newbie outside of using a mostly
      stock install as a simple file server, I'm really an OS/2 guy. But I ran
      RH 5.2 (Netscape 4.04 anyone?) for many years and finally upgraded to
      6.1 for a year. My most recent install was a jump to RH 9.0 but that is
      on newer hardware. Redhat versions past about 7.X would most likely not
      run on an older system usably. My experiments have shown me that
      anything less than about a 300mhz CPU with 128M RAM will not run RH 9.0
      in a usable manner. For lower-powered systems I was using a highly
      modified RH 6.1 install with FVWM95 (even ran OK on a 486DX4-120 with
      only 24M RAM). Recently I've begun experimenting with basic Vector Linux
      and am trying various simple X-Managers on them just for fun.
      --
      Davey Brain
      dsbrain@NOSPAM!neosplice.com or
      dsbrain2001@...!com

      "Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth" - John F.
      Kennedy

      Gigabyte 7VKML AMD Athlon 1700XP+ Savage 4 AGP 4X 32M
      This eCS-OS/2 system uptime is 8 days 02 hrs 28 mins and 07 secs
    • auwg
      ... Well, for the moment, I have the book and CD on 6.0 and I can always wipe the hard drive for a newer version. I m just plinking at an eventual target,
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 6, 2003
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        --- James Drabb <jdrabb@t...> wrote:
        > Red Hat 6.0 is a VERY old version. You should look into a newer
        > version. Though on hardware that old, maybe you should try Red Hat
        > 7.3. If you have a newer PC, you should look at Red Hat 9, or the
        > newest version which is now called Fedora Core 1. You can find out
        > about Fedora at http://fedora.redhat.com/

        Well, for the moment, I have the book and CD on 6.0 and I can always
        wipe the hard drive for a newer version.
        I'm just plinking at an eventual target, which is "No more M$
        products on my computers".
        I don't want to toss Linux on one of the new boxes until I've seen it
        do what I need done -- on the net and off -- and I know I can handle
        it reasonably effectively at the common-user level.

        The only thing that's held Linux back is the public perception that
        only computer/programmer geeks can use it. (or should :)
        It used to be that way with CPM, OS/2, Unix, Xenix, and even DOS.
        I know; I was there for Kaypro and Osborne CPM, DOS 2.0, early
        Windows, and so on. Those of us who could make anything happen on a
        computer were considered Wizards.

        But I no longer have the time or inclination to kick-start my
        computers, fight with sound, video, or other peripherals, or write
        adjustment codes by hand.
        I want something -- YES, as easy as Windows! -- that will work right
        out of the box and let me get on with my businesses.
        If some version of Linux is like that NOW, I'll just go get it and
        get on with things.
        All of my computers are about 2 years old or older, so finding
        drivers and such shouldn't be a problem, right?
        1 Toshiba 1555CDS lappie, two generic desktop boxes.
        Tell me this will be as easy as installing Windows? :)
        Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
        Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
        http://abintrapress.tripod.com
        http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
      • auwg
        ... security ... or ... Others seem to agree with your 7.3 recommendation, but I m on a dialup. Maybe I can find it on a CD. ... Ha. Highly modified is what
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 6, 2003
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          ---Davey Brain <dsbrain@n...> wrote:
          > Redhat 6 is a pretty stable version to run on older systems but
          security
          > could be a problem. I would suggest if possible you upgrade to 6.1
          or
          > 6.2 though, or if you have the bandwidth DL the 7.3 version.

          Others seem to agree with your 7.3 recommendation, but I'm on a
          dialup. Maybe I can find it on a CD.

          > For lower-powered systems I was using a highly
          > modified RH 6.1 install with FVWM95 (even ran OK on a 486DX4-120
          > with only 24M RAM).

          Ha. "Highly modified" is what I'm trying to avoid. Three people here
          use the computers.
          While any of them can reinstall a program or drivers from a CD or
          floppy, I'm the only one who can work from a DOS prompt.
          Forget major modifications or having to punt the damned things into
          gear. That just won't happen.
          They'll call it a 'snow day' and go home. :)
          Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
          Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
          http://abintrapress.tripod.com
          http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
        • James Drabb
          ... The problem with using such an old version is that you will have older version of all applications and most importanly, an older kernel. An older kernel
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 6, 2003
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            On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 18:42, auwg wrote:
            > --- James Drabb <jdrabb@t...> wrote:
            > > Red Hat 6.0 is a VERY old version. You should look into a newer
            > > version. Though on hardware that old, maybe you should try Red Hat
            > > 7.3. If you have a newer PC, you should look at Red Hat 9, or the
            > > newest version which is now called Fedora Core 1. You can find out
            > > about Fedora at http://fedora.redhat.com/
            >
            > Well, for the moment, I have the book and CD on 6.0 and I can always
            > wipe the hard drive for a newer version.
            > I'm just plinking at an eventual target, which is "No more M$
            > products on my computers".
            > I don't want to toss Linux on one of the new boxes until I've seen it
            > do what I need done -- on the net and off -- and I know I can handle
            > it reasonably effectively at the common-user level.
            >
            > The only thing that's held Linux back is the public perception that
            > only computer/programmer geeks can use it. (or should :)
            > It used to be that way with CPM, OS/2, Unix, Xenix, and even DOS.
            > I know; I was there for Kaypro and Osborne CPM, DOS 2.0, early
            > Windows, and so on. Those of us who could make anything happen on a
            > computer were considered Wizards.
            >
            > But I no longer have the time or inclination to kick-start my
            > computers, fight with sound, video, or other peripherals, or write
            > adjustment codes by hand.
            > I want something -- YES, as easy as Windows! -- that will work right
            > out of the box and let me get on with my businesses.
            > If some version of Linux is like that NOW, I'll just go get it and
            > get on with things.
            > All of my computers are about 2 years old or older, so finding
            > drivers and such shouldn't be a problem, right?
            > 1 Toshiba 1555CDS lappie, two generic desktop boxes.
            > Tell me this will be as easy as installing Windows? :)
            > Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press

            The problem with using such an old version is that you will have older
            version of all applications and most importanly, an older kernel. An
            older kernel means older drivers and less support for hardware. Also,
            the install for newer versions such as Red Hat 9.0 and Fedora Core 1,
            are sooo much nicer and incredibly easy on the end user. I have never
            installed RH 6, so I cannot comment on it.

            Another point, is you may run into problems/frustrations with such an
            old version and think that is how more current versions of Linux are,
            when it most likely would not be the case.

            You said you only have a dial-up connection? What type of modem do you
            have? If it is a "Winmodem" and not a real modem, you may not be able
            to get it to work under Linux. Winmodems are cheap modems that have had
            hardware removed and the functionality of that removed hardware is
            emulated in a driver. Most of the time those needed drives are only
            available under MS Windows. The best modem to use under Linux is a
            real, hardware modem. Basically, any eternal serial modem will work.

            Best,

            Jim Drabb
            --
            James Drabb
            Senior Programmer Analyst
            Davenport, FL USA
          • nagendra_pratap_singh
            ... If you can give us the specs of the machine ( video/modem) then most of us can give a few suggestions. Also if you need to remove windows altogether then
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 6, 2003
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              --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com
              If you can give us the specs of the machine ( video/modem) then most
              of us can give a few suggestions. Also if you need to remove windows
              altogether then you need a later version like redhat or mandrake 9.2.
              It has apps which can replace office and internet explorer.
              redhat 6.0 was not upto that level anyway ( though many linux types
              will not admit it). redhat 9.0 / mandrake 9.2 have come a long way.
              redhat 5.2 and 6.1 will not make it

              Nagendra Pratap Singh
            • Godwin Stewart
              ... Agreed. RH 6.0 shipped with a 2.2.25 kernel and, for the more daring who wanted to dabble with experimental stuff, a 2.3.9 kernel. ... I have. The
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                Sat, 06 Dec 2003 21:18:52 -0500 scripsit James Drabb:

                > The problem with using such an old version is that you will have older
                > version of all applications and most importanly, an older kernel.

                Agreed.

                RH 6.0 shipped with a 2.2.25 kernel and, for the more daring who wanted to
                dabble with experimental stuff, a 2.3.9 kernel.

                > An older kernel means older drivers and less support for hardware. Also,
                > the install for newer versions such as Red Hat 9.0 and Fedora Core 1,
                > are sooo much nicer and incredibly easy on the end user. I have never
                > installed RH 6, so I cannot comment on it.

                I have.

                The graphical mode installation never worked, I had to stick with text mode,
                which is what I preferred anyway but I always tried to think in terms of a
                newbie. And RH 6.0 (released over 4 years ago) definitely is *not* as newbie
                friendly as a more recent distro. If you want to stick with Red Hat, RH9 or
                Fedora Core 1 are probably good choices. If you can't download them
                yourself, do you know someone who can?

                > The best modem to use under Linux is a real, hardware modem. Basically,
                > any eternal serial modem will work.
                ~~~~~~~
                You won't have to replace it very often :o)

                --
                G. Stewart -- gstewart@... -- gstewart@...
                Registered Linux user #284683 (Slackware 9.0)
                ---------------------------------------------------------------
                If a listener nods his head when you're explaining your program, wake
                him up.
              • nagendra_pratap_singh
                ... Hat, RH9 or ... In most cases you can buy CDs on the net India http://www.baazee.com/jsp/BidForm.jsp?Trade_TradeId=24015470 NZ www.trademe.co.nz other
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                  --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <gstewart@s...> wrote:
                  > friendly as a more recent distro. If you want to stick with Red
                  Hat, RH9 or
                  > Fedora Core 1 are probably good choices. If you can't download them
                  > yourself, do you know someone who can?
                  In most cases you can buy CDs on the net
                  India http://www.baazee.com/jsp/BidForm.jsp?Trade_TradeId=24015470
                  NZ www.trademe.co.nz
                  other www.ebay.com
                  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                  ViewItem&item=3643713753&category=41881

                  www.cheapbytes.com

                  Its not worth struggling to download for 3 days for a single CD. Also
                  some magazines come with full version of download editions + lots of
                  hints etc.

                  http://www.linuxshop.co.nz/catalog/product_info.php?
                  cPath=3_13&products_id=139

                  Hope it helps

                  Nagendra Pratap Singh
                • Davey Brain
                  ... Hey, Magazines are an excellent idea and I don t know why I didn t suggest it, I m glad you did! I m in the US and I buy a magazine from the UK called
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                    nagendra_pratap_singh wrote thusly:
                    > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <gstewart@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    >>friendly as a more recent distro. If you want to stick with Red
                    >
                    > Hat, RH9 or
                    >
                    >>Fedora Core 1 are probably good choices. If you can't download them
                    >>yourself, do you know someone who can?
                    >
                    > In most cases you can buy CDs on the net
                    > India http://www.baazee.com/jsp/BidForm.jsp?Trade_TradeId=24015470
                    > NZ www.trademe.co.nz
                    > other www.ebay.com
                    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                    > ViewItem&item=3643713753&category=41881
                    >
                    > www.cheapbytes.com
                    >
                    > Its not worth struggling to download for 3 days for a single CD. Also
                    > some magazines come with full version of download editions + lots of
                    > hints etc.
                    >
                    > http://www.linuxshop.co.nz/catalog/product_info.php?
                    > cPath=3_13&products_id=139
                    >
                    > Hope it helps
                    >
                    > Nagendra Pratap Singh

                    Hey,
                    Magazines are an excellent idea and I don't know why I didn't suggest
                    it, I'm glad you did! I'm in the US and I buy a magazine from the UK
                    called "Linux Format" (website at <http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/>).
                    Since I'm on a slow dialup that rarely exceeds 32Kbps on initial connect
                    and has a real throughput of about 10M/hr (~24Kbps) then it is about the
                    only method I have for updating my Linux apps. The mag costs me $13.95US
                    and comes with 2 CDs (DVD version is not available here) that usually
                    contain one or more distros, multiple apps and many updated essentials.
                    The last issue I bought included GenToo Linux 1.4 complete (would take
                    me days to get online), updated GnuCash, Gimp, PHP, kernel 2.4.22,
                    BZFlag, Jahshaka, Kroupware and a full commercial version (worth some
                    $$) of Seapine Surround SCM <http://www.seapine.com/surroundscm.html>.
                    The DVD version seems to have almost 3 times as much as the CD version
                    (but my bookstore doesn't get it in). Plus it comes with the best (IMHO)
                    Linux print mag in the world. Linux Format has articles for anyone from
                    newbie to expert and cites many available online resources. Great idea!
                    --
                    Davey Brain
                    dsbrain@NOSPAM!neosplice.com or
                    dsbrain2001@...!com

                    "Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth" - John F.
                    Kennedy

                    Gigabyte 7VKML AMD Athlon 1700XP+ Savage 4 AGP 4X 32M
                    This eCS-OS/2 system uptime is 8 days 22 hrs 50 mins and 51 secs
                  • auwg
                    ... you ... able ... Yeah, I ve been reading groups and noticed that elsewhere. The old box has a hardware-based US Robotics modem. Should work fine. I hear
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                      --- James Drabb <jdrabb@t...> wrote:
                      > You said you only have a dial-up connection? What type of modem do
                      you
                      > have? If it is a "Winmodem" and not a real modem, you may not be
                      able
                      > to get it to work under Linux.

                      Yeah, I've been reading groups and noticed that elsewhere.
                      The old box has a hardware-based US Robotics modem.
                      Should work fine.
                      I hear what you're saying about later versions, but like I said, for
                      experimental purposes, I have 6.0 with a book.

                      Someone suggested 7.1 for older machines.
                      If someone has it on CD's and would make me a copy, I'd give it a try.
                      Thanks,
                      Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                      Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                      http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                      http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                    • Sriram Rajan
                      ... Hey !! That s not true. ... right ... hmm, I guess you must try Knoppix or SUSE live-evalution s . These DO NOT NEED any installation (Can Windows beat
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                        --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "auwg" <auwg@h...> wrote:
                        > The only thing that's held Linux back is the public perception that
                        > only computer/programmer geeks can use it. (or should :)

                        Hey !! That's not true.

                        > It used to be that way with CPM, OS/2, Unix, Xenix, and even DOS.
                        > I know; I was there for Kaypro and Osborne CPM, DOS 2.0, early
                        > Windows, and so on. Those of us who could make anything happen on a
                        > computer were considered Wizards.
                        >
                        > But I no longer have the time or inclination to kick-start my
                        > computers, fight with sound, video, or other peripherals, or write
                        > adjustment codes by hand.
                        > I want something -- YES, as easy as Windows! -- that will work
                        right
                        > out of the box and let me get on with my businesses.
                        > If some version of Linux is like that NOW, I'll just go get it and
                        > get on with things.

                        hmm, I guess you must try Knoppix or SUSE live-evalution's . These DO
                        NOT NEED any installation (Can Windows beat that, I wonder!!) . First
                        Get the CD from
                        http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html

                        You can either download the image and burn the CD or order it (only
                        shipping charges apply).

                        Once you have the CD ready, just re-start your computer and make sure
                        the BIOS has CD-ROM as the first boot option.

                        In less than a couple of minutes you should have a linux desktop on
                        your machine and yes all Applications installed.

                        If you change your mind simply, shutdown the machine ( the menu is
                        similar to Windows) and remove the CD. You are back to your Windows
                        Environment again.

                        Check it out before going Redhat.

                        - Sriram

                        Unix and Windows System Administrator
                      • auwg
                        ... most ... windows ... 9.2. ... Hm. More to consider and a good idea for a good place to start. Okay, I ll put RH6.0 back on the shelf and see about putting
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                          --- "nagendra_pratap_singh" <mandrake@p...> wrote:
                          > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com
                          > If you can give us the specs of the machine ( video/modem) then
                          most
                          > of us can give a few suggestions. Also if you need to remove
                          windows
                          > altogether then you need a later version like redhat or mandrake
                          9.2.
                          > It has apps which can replace office and internet explorer.
                          > redhat 6.0 was not upto that level anyway ( though many linux types
                          > will not admit it). redhat 9.0 / mandrake 9.2 have come a long way.
                          > redhat 5.2 and 6.1 will not make it

                          Hm. More to consider and a good idea for a good place to start.

                          Okay, I'll put RH6.0 back on the shelf and see about putting together
                          a spec sheet on the old box.

                          I'm not in a big hurry, but once I start this project, I'd like to
                          end up with best possible results after as little fiddling as
                          possible.
                          The system will have to be something I can adjust or fix as easily as
                          I can fix my Win98 stuff, and the other two here will have to be able
                          to click through it as easily as with the current system.
                          Thanks,
                          Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                          Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                          http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                          http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                        • auwg
                          ... Not at the moment. I m in one of those TinyTown retirement places, and except for promoting my books at SF conventions and flying my hang glider an hour s
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                            --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <gstewart@s...> wrote:
                            > If you want to stick with Red Hat, RH9 or
                            > Fedora Core 1 are probably good choices. If you can't download them
                            > yourself, do you know someone who can?

                            Not at the moment. I'm in one of those TinyTown retirement places,
                            and except for promoting my books at SF conventions and flying my
                            hang glider an hour's drive away, I don't get out much or bother with
                            the neighbors.
                            One possibility is the DJ at a friend's bar; he has cable, but he's
                            pretty hard to reach when he isn't in a DJ booth.
                            I'd be better off asking someone to send me a copy on CD.
                            Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                            Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                            http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                            http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                          • auwg
                            ... Also ... of ... Okay, then, the source problem is solved. Now to try to decide for certain which version will work best with a 1998 box and periphs. I ll
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                              --- "nagendra_pratap_singh" <mandrake@p...> wrote:
                              > > Fedora Core 1 are probably good choices. If you can't download
                              > > them yourself, do you know someone who can?
                              > In most cases you can buy CDs on the net
                              > India http://www.baazee.com/jsp/BidForm.jsp?Trade_TradeId=24015470
                              > NZ www.trademe.co.nz
                              > www.cheapbytes.com
                              >
                              > Its not worth struggling to download for 3 days for a single CD.
                              Also
                              > some magazines come with full version of download editions + lots
                              of
                              > hints etc.
                              > http://www.linuxshop.co.nz/catalog/product_info.php?
                              > cPath=3_13&products_id=139
                              > Hope it helps
                              > Nagendra Pratap Singh

                              Okay, then, the source problem is solved.
                              Now to try to decide for certain which version will work best with a
                              1998 box and periphs.
                              I'll post back about that when I have a parts list.
                              Thanks,
                              Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                              Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                              http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                              http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                            • auwg
                              ... suggest ... UK ... connect ... about the ... $13.95US ... usually ... essentials. Welllll..... I may sound like a real Luddite, here, but I don t want to
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                                --- Davey Brain <dsbrain@n...> wrote:
                                > nagendra_pratap_singh wrote thusly:
                                > > some magazines come with full version of download editions + lots
                                > > of hints etc.
                                > Magazines are an excellent idea and I don't know why I didn't
                                suggest
                                > it, I'm glad you did! I'm in the US and I buy a magazine from the
                                UK
                                > called "Linux Format" (website at <http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/>).
                                > Since I'm on a slow dialup that rarely exceeds 32Kbps on initial
                                connect
                                > and has a real throughput of about 10M/hr (~24Kbps) then it is
                                about the
                                > only method I have for updating my Linux apps. The mag costs me
                                $13.95US
                                > and comes with 2 CDs (DVD version is not available here) that
                                usually
                                > contain one or more distros, multiple apps and many updated
                                essentials.

                                Welllll..... I may sound like a real Luddite, here, but I don't want
                                to subscribe to a magazine for updates. I don't want updates.
                                I don't want to tinker, tweak, tighten, tease, or diddle with the
                                system. I just want it to work immediately and replace W98 and the
                                other stuff I use for general bookkeeping, the internet, and writing.
                                (I use Wordpad and save in .rtf, then convert those to whatever's
                                required. No fancy wordprocessors.)

                                In fact, since I've heard of not even one LIT/PDF/Rocket ebook
                                conversion prog that runs under Linux, I guess I won't be doing that
                                on the Linux box.

                                I write books and run a couple of small businesses.
                                I got W98 about the same time XP appeared and haven't updated
                                anything but the security patches and IE, and I wouldn't have
                                bothered with those if my ebook distributors hadn't forced me to it
                                via web security measures at their end.

                                In short, like a typical consumer, I just want to put the CD in,
                                hit 'Enter' on the setup file, and end up with a working system that
                                I can USE within an hour or so. No steep learning curve, please, I'd
                                rather use that time writing books or flying.
                                Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                                Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                                http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                                http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                              • auwg
                                ... Of course it s true. If it weren t, half or more of all computer users would be running Linux and far fewer people would make faces or look altogether
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                                  --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "Sriram Rajan" <sriram_mnm@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "auwg" <auwg@h...> wrote:
                                  > > The only thing that's held Linux back is the public perception
                                  > > that only computer/programmer geeks can use it. (or should :)
                                  >
                                  > Hey !! That's not true.

                                  Of course it's true. If it weren't, half or more of all computer
                                  users would be running Linux and far fewer people would make faces or
                                  look altogether baffled when Linux is mentioned.

                                  > hmm, I guess you must try Knoppix or SUSE live-evalution's . These
                                  DO
                                  > NOT NEED any installation (Can Windows beat that, I wonder!!) .
                                  First
                                  > Get the CD from
                                  > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html
                                  > In less than a couple of minutes you should have a linux desktop on
                                  > your machine and yes all Applications installed.
                                  > If you change your mind simply, shutdown the machine ( the menu is
                                  > similar to Windows) and remove the CD. You are back to your Windows
                                  > Environment again.
                                  > Check it out before going Redhat.

                                  Sounds great. I'll go there/see that.
                                  Thanks,
                                  Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                                  Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                                  http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                                  http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                                • Godwin Stewart
                                  ... Half of the problem behind this sorry state of affairs is Microsoft themselves forbidding OEM s from selling computers without Microstupid software
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                                    Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:51:16 -0000 scripsit auwg:

                                    > Of course it's true. If it weren't, half or more of all computer
                                    > users would be running Linux and far fewer people would make faces or
                                    > look altogether baffled when Linux is mentioned.

                                    Half of the problem behind this sorry state of affairs is Microsoft
                                    themselves forbidding OEM's from selling computers without Microstupid
                                    software preinstalled. Some OEM's over here in France even took to billing
                                    customers who wanted machines without M$ idiotsware the princely sum of 700€
                                    (that's about 850 US$) to remove the preinstalled crapware. How do you fight
                                    that?

                                    This has led to the M$ market domination we now know, which in turn has led
                                    to component/peripheral manufacturers writing drivers only for Windows. No
                                    hardware support in Linux means less equipment able to run Linux, although
                                    more and more companies (NVidia for example) have started distributing Linux
                                    drivers for their hardware.

                                    Another part of the problem is the "rough and ready" appearance of earlier
                                    distros, RH 6.0 among them, in which things *DO* *NOT* "just work" how you'd
                                    like them to. More recent distros are getting there, RH9 is one of them.
                                    Others will argue that Mandrake 9.1 and 9.2 are almost there (but I have
                                    other reasons not to want to touch a Mandrake distribution with a barge
                                    pole).

                                    Linux is beginning to catch up on M$ in that respect and has made its
                                    presence felt in mainstream media - even if only through SCO's idiotic
                                    claims, so someone who "makes faces or looks altogether baffled when Linux
                                    is mentioned" really should wake up and smell the coffee.

                                    --
                                    G. Stewart -- gstewart@... -- gstewart@...
                                    Registered Linux user #284683 (Slackware 9.0)
                                    ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                    There's no place like ~
                                  • Scott
                                    ... Heh, and this is a RedHat list, so let me add that the Slackware live CD is also quite good. Gentoo and ArchLinux also have them now. :) (Don t know how
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 7, 2003
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                                      On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 09:17:46PM +0000, Sriram Rajan wrote:
                                      > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "auwg" <auwg@h...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > hmm, I guess you must try Knoppix or SUSE live-evalution's . These DO
                                      > NOT NEED any installation (Can Windows beat that, I wonder!!) . First
                                      > Get the CD from
                                      > http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html

                                      >
                                      > If you change your mind simply, shutdown the machine ( the menu is
                                      > similar to Windows) and remove the CD. You are back to your Windows
                                      > Environment again.
                                      >
                                      > Check it out before going Redhat.

                                      Heh, and this is a RedHat list, so let me add that the Slackware live CD
                                      is also quite good. Gentoo and ArchLinux also have them now. :)
                                      (Don't know how good the last two are on hardware detection. Knoppix is
                                      excellent, but on one Toshiba laptop had trouble--on that one, the Slack
                                      live CD worked, however.)

                                      --

                                      Scott Robbins

                                      PGP keyID EB3467D6
                                      ( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 D575 EB34 67D6 )
                                      gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6



                                      Willow: It's horrible. That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil, and
                                      skanky. And I think I'm kind of gay.
                                      Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing
                                      to do with the person it was.
                                      Angel: Well, actually... That's a good point.
                                    • auwg
                                      ... faces or ... Nope. M$ hasn t quite become THAT powerful. Wal-Mart s been selling ready to go units with a Linux off-thing called Lindows . See their
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                        --- Godwin Stewart <gstewart@s...> wrote:
                                        > Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:51:16 -0000 scripsit auwg:
                                        > > Of course it's true. If it weren't, half or more of all computer
                                        > > users would be running Linux and far fewer people would make
                                        faces or
                                        > > look altogether baffled when Linux is mentioned.
                                        >
                                        > Half of the problem behind this sorry state of affairs is Microsoft
                                        > themselves forbidding OEM's from selling computers without
                                        > Microstupid software preinstalled.

                                        Nope. M$ hasn't quite become THAT powerful.
                                        Wal-Mart's been selling ready to go units with a Linux off-thing
                                        called "Lindows". See their website.

                                        > Some OEM's over here in France even took to billing
                                        > customers who wanted machines without M$ idiotsware the princely
                                        sum of 700€
                                        > (that's about 850 US$) to remove the preinstalled crapware. How do
                                        you fight
                                        > that?

                                        Ah. Well. France. Hm. That's different, of course.
                                        Well, no it isn't, actually.
                                        What they're doing is charging the customer about four times their
                                        licensing fee for WinWares and probably charging for installing Linux
                                        or whatever else.
                                        I'd say it's simple greed at street level, not necessarily something
                                        that M$ cooked up.
                                        Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                                        Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                                        http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                                        http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                                      • auwg
                                        ... live CD ... Knoppix is ... Slack ... ...And it just so happens that my lappie is a Tosh 1555CDS. Thanks for the timely info, Scott. Ed Howdershelt -
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                          --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@d...> wrote:
                                          > Heh, and this is a RedHat list, so let me add that the Slackware
                                          live CD
                                          > is also quite good. Gentoo and ArchLinux also have them now. :)
                                          > (Don't know how good the last two are on hardware detection.
                                          Knoppix is
                                          > excellent, but on one Toshiba laptop had trouble--on that one, the
                                          Slack
                                          > live CD worked, however.)

                                          ...And it just so happens that my lappie is a Tosh 1555CDS.
                                          Thanks for the timely info, Scott.
                                          Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                                          Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                                          http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                                          http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                                        • Mike Pepper
                                          ... With the latest Redhat debacle over Fedora and all, I took a long hard look at SuSE... I like 8.1 Personal so well that I just ordered 9.0 Pro for work
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                            On Monday 08 December 2003 4:19 pm, auwg wrote:
                                            > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Scott <scottro@d...> wrote:
                                            > > Heh, and this is a RedHat list, so let me add that the Slackware
                                            >
                                            > live CD
                                            >
                                            > > is also quite good.

                                            With the latest Redhat debacle over Fedora and all, I took a long hard look at
                                            SuSE... I like 8.1 Personal so well that I just ordered 9.0 Pro for work
                                            today. It's worth a look.
                                            I have a Gateway laptop that seems to have some hard ware that does not get
                                            along with Linux, I always had a difficult time with Redhat on it.
                                            SuSE might be worth a look

                                            My 2 cents

                                            Mike
                                          • Godwin Stewart
                                            ... http://lists.essential.org/1998/info-policy-notes/msg00026.html ... No thanks. A distro in which absolutely everything is run as root is no safer than
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                              Mon, 08 Dec 2003 22:17:15 -0000 scripsit auwg:

                                              > > Half of the problem behind this sorry state of affairs is Microsoft
                                              > > themselves forbidding OEM's from selling computers without
                                              > > Microstupid software preinstalled.
                                              >
                                              > Nope. M$ hasn't quite become THAT powerful.

                                              http://lists.essential.org/1998/info-policy-notes/msg00026.html

                                              > Wal-Mart's been selling ready to go units with a Linux off-thing
                                              > called "Lindows". See their website.

                                              No thanks.

                                              A distro in which absolutely everything is run as root is no safer than
                                              Windows.

                                              > I'd say it's simple greed at street level, not necessarily something
                                              > that M$ cooked up.

                                              I didn't say it was, I was emphasizing the fact that OEM's also make it
                                              difficult for the consumer to exercize free choice.

                                              --
                                              G. Stewart -- gstewart@... -- gstewart@...
                                              Registered Linux user #284683 (Slackware 9.0)
                                              ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                              A lot of money is tainted. 'Taint yours and 'taint mine.
                                            • auwg
                                              ... Microsoft ... Hm. Some of those guys sounded as if they didn t want to be bothered. Don t you have computer stores that make generic boxes in France? If
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                                --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, Godwin Stewart <gstewart@s...> wrote:
                                                > > > Half of the problem behind this sorry state of affairs is
                                                Microsoft
                                                > > > themselves forbidding OEM's from selling computers without
                                                > > > Microstupid software preinstalled.
                                                > http://lists.essential.org/1998/info-policy-notes/msg00026.html

                                                Hm. Some of those guys sounded as if they didn't want to be bothered.

                                                Don't you have computer stores that make generic boxes in France?
                                                If you're going to run Linux, does it have to be a brand-name box?

                                                > > I'd say it's simple greed at street level, not necessarily
                                                > > something that M$ cooked up.
                                                >
                                                > I didn't say it was, I was emphasizing the fact that OEM's also
                                                > make it difficult for the consumer to exercize free choice.

                                                OEM's are pushing "product". Their attitude is 'one size fits all or
                                                go somewhere else, etc...'
                                                Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                                                Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                                                http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                                                http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920
                                              • nagendra_pratap_singh
                                                ... or ... Well linux is hard and to be frank linux heads want it to remain that way. Its nothing to do with microsoft s monopoly. In many parts of world legal
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Dec 8, 2003
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                                                  --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "auwg" <auwg@h...> wrote:
                                                  > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "Sriram Rajan" <sriram_mnm@y...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > > --- In redhat@yahoogroups.com, "auwg" <auwg@h...> wrote:
                                                  > > > The only thing that's held Linux back is the public perception
                                                  > > > that only computer/programmer geeks can use it. (or should :)
                                                  > > Hey !! That's not true.
                                                  > Of course it's true. If it weren't, half or more of all computer
                                                  > users would be running Linux and far fewer people would make faces
                                                  or
                                                  > look altogether baffled when Linux is mentioned.

                                                  Well linux is hard and to be frank linux heads want it to remain that
                                                  way. Its nothing to do with microsoft's monopoly. In many parts of
                                                  world legal software is hard to find even if you try. Brands like
                                                  compaqs are rarely used.
                                                  Still the people who buy or build computers prefer to use pirated
                                                  windows than use linux. I have a cd set ( staroffice + mandrake)
                                                  which came with a AZZA motherboard. The customer went on to install
                                                  pirated windows than load theis star office

                                                  Staroffice is a big sham. Sun did not allow it to be put on magazine
                                                  CDs and most of are not willing to download it and try.

                                                  Nagendra Pratap Singh
                                                • Godwin Stewart
                                                  ... I would say that the mere existence of this list is proof of the contrary... ... ...which is why most people use OpenOffice instead. -- G. Stewart --
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                                    Tue, 09 Dec 2003 06:44:07 -0000 scripsit nagendra_pratap_singh:

                                                    > Well linux is hard and to be frank linux heads want it to remain that
                                                    > way.

                                                    I would say that the mere existence of this list is proof of the contrary...

                                                    > Staroffice is a big sham. Sun did not allow it to be put on magazine
                                                    > CDs and most of are not willing to download it and try.

                                                    ...which is why most people use OpenOffice instead.

                                                    --
                                                    G. Stewart -- gstewart@... -- gstewart@...
                                                    Registered Linux user #284683 (Slackware 9.0)
                                                    ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    A computer without Windows is like a chocolate cake
                                                    without mustard
                                                  • Godwin Stewart
                                                    ... Some of them also openly claimed that their agreements with M$ forbade them from selling machines without M$-ware. ... Of course, yes. Most assemblers will
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Dec 9, 2003
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                                                      Tue, 09 Dec 2003 05:12:32 -0000 scripsit auwg:

                                                      > Hm. Some of those guys sounded as if they didn't want to be bothered.

                                                      Some of them also openly claimed that their agreements with M$ forbade them
                                                      from selling machines without M$-ware.

                                                      > Don't you have computer stores that make generic boxes in France?

                                                      Of course, yes. Most assemblers will build you a machine with no O/S or sell
                                                      you the parts to build it yourself, but be careful who you buy the stuff
                                                      from. I can't find any links off-hand but I do have distinct memories of M$
                                                      (maybe it was just in France but I doubt it) encourageing retailers who sold
                                                      a machine with no O/S to someone to report the name and address of the
                                                      customer to M$ so they could bombard them with anti-piracy junk.

                                                      > If you're going to run Linux, does it have to be a brand-name box?

                                                      No, of course not. My own machines are a mixture of parts bought at various
                                                      places.

                                                      The behaviour exhibited by OEM's, however, is pretty much precluding the use
                                                      of Linux on brand machines, and that is not really what "we" want, is it?

                                                      > OEM's are pushing "product". Their attitude is 'one size fits all or
                                                      > go somewhere else, etc...'

                                                      Which is why more and more people are going somewhere else.

                                                      --
                                                      G. Stewart -- gstewart@... -- gstewart@...
                                                      Registered Linux user #284683 (Slackware 9.0)
                                                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                                      Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him
                                                      how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer
                                                      all day.
                                                    • Davey Brain
                                                      ... Maybe M$ isn t that powerful now (although I have my doubts) but it definately was involved in this practice in the 1990s. If you read the testimony at the
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Dec 9, 2003
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        auwg wrote thusly:
                                                        > --- Godwin Stewart <gstewart@s...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >>Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:51:16 -0000 scripsit auwg:
                                                        >>
                                                        >>>Of course it's true. If it weren't, half or more of all computer
                                                        >>>users would be running Linux and far fewer people would make
                                                        >
                                                        > faces or
                                                        >
                                                        >>>look altogether baffled when Linux is mentioned.
                                                        >>
                                                        >>Half of the problem behind this sorry state of affairs is Microsoft
                                                        >>themselves forbidding OEM's from selling computers without
                                                        >>Microstupid software preinstalled.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Nope. M$ hasn't quite become THAT powerful.
                                                        > Wal-Mart's been selling ready to go units with a Linux off-thing
                                                        > called "Lindows". See their website.

                                                        Maybe M$ isn't that powerful now (although I have my doubts) but it
                                                        definately was involved in this practice in the 1990s. If you read the
                                                        testimony at the antitrust trial many venders testified to this
                                                        practice. IBM was told that in order to be able to sell Windows at all
                                                        they had to "not sell" OS/2 Warp. They could no longer advertise it on
                                                        TV or in magazines. They could sell an OS/2 solution, but must first
                                                        push for a Windows solution and only bring up OS/2 as an alternative.
                                                        Many venders (Compaq, Dell, etc) were told that if they wanted to sell
                                                        Windows on 90% of their computers they must buy a license for 100% of
                                                        the systems sold, whether or not they installed it or not. BeOS, which
                                                        eventually billed itself as a multimedia addon for Windows was
                                                        blacklisted to venders. M$ literally banned any OEM from installing BeOS
                                                        on a system with Windows as they had banned a dual op sys install of
                                                        Windows and OS/2 earlier. The remains of Be Inc. have been in court for
                                                        quite some time over this.

                                                        >>Some OEM's over here in France even took to billing
                                                        >>customers who wanted machines without M$ idiotsware the princely
                                                        >
                                                        > sum of 700€
                                                        >
                                                        >>(that's about 850 US$) to remove the preinstalled crapware. How do
                                                        >
                                                        > you fight
                                                        >
                                                        >>that?
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Ah. Well. France. Hm. That's different, of course.
                                                        > Well, no it isn't, actually.
                                                        > What they're doing is charging the customer about four times their
                                                        > licensing fee for WinWares and probably charging for installing Linux
                                                        > or whatever else.
                                                        > I'd say it's simple greed at street level, not necessarily something
                                                        > that M$ cooked up.
                                                        > Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
                                                        > Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
                                                        > http://abintrapress.tripod.com
                                                        > http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=10823&id=95920

                                                        Most consumers in the USA don't know this, but due to the (fumbled)
                                                        antitrust action a vender is required to sell a system without Windows
                                                        and delete the M$ Win tax if you so request. But most consumers take
                                                        Windows as they don't even realize anything else is available. In my
                                                        business I used to ask a customer "What operating system do you use?"
                                                        but got tired of the blank stares. Now I just ask "What version of
                                                        Windows do you use?". If I get a job for an alternative op sys then the
                                                        customer usually mentions it up front without having to be asked as in
                                                        "I use Redhat Linux 8.0 and...". It's kind of like an open gay man
                                                        usually says "I'm so-and-so and I'm gay", but a straight person doesn't
                                                        say "I'm so-and-so and I'm straight" as that is assumed. Using Windows
                                                        is assumed unless it's stated otherwise just like a person's preference
                                                        is assumed to be heterosexual unless stated otherwise. In the case of
                                                        Windows it's definately a direct result of the anticompetitive actions
                                                        of M$ in the 90s. Get it on 100% of the computers and 90% or more won't
                                                        bother to switch to something else. Oh, and before I get flamed I'm not
                                                        saying Linux users are like gay people in some way other than being a
                                                        minority, but as Dilbert's pointy-haired boss says, it is a Eunuchs-like
                                                        op sys ;)

                                                        Incidentally, in my business I do a lot of hardware repairs and design
                                                        of websites, but over 90% of my software work involves repairing Windows
                                                        systems that have been damaged from viruses and trojans. The other small
                                                        percent is speeding a slow system up (remove junk, spyware, etc) and
                                                        total system reinstalls.
                                                        --
                                                        Davey Brain
                                                        dsbrain@NOSPAM!neosplice.com or
                                                        dsbrain2001@...!com

                                                        "Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth" - John F.
                                                        Kennedy

                                                        Gigabyte 7VKML AMD Athlon 1700XP+ Savage 4 AGP 4X 32M
                                                        This eCS-OS/2 system uptime is 10 days 21 hrs 50 mins and 43 secs
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