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Re: [radio-userland] Yup (hi!)

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  • Dave Winer
    Hi Hugh, thanks for joining the list. I have a prototype application in mind that Groove might be able to help with. At UserLand everyone keeps a project
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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      Hi Hugh, thanks for joining the list.

      I have a prototype application in mind that Groove might be able to help
      with.

      At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The combination of
      all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to move the
      pieces around, yet, without making them public.

      Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to try to
      leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably the
      highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.

      Dave
    • hpyle@agora.co.uk
      ... combination of ... move the ... try to ... the ... Sounds a good story. I m assuming the outlines are OPML, which is easy to parse and can be stored
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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        > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
        combination of
        > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
        move the
        > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
        >
        > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
        try to
        > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
        the
        > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.

        Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
        easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
        degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
        files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
        tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).

        If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
        email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)

        -Hugh
        hpyle@...
      • Dave Winer
        OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around, I have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to run inside
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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          OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around, I
          have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to run
          inside Groove. This was the same kind of "opportunity" Java offered, it's
          "jump in my bathtub" story that I find uninteresting (too much work, too
          risky). Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between users? We
          can do the joining of outlines in Radio, that's something it's quite good
          at. Dave


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <hpyle@...>
          To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:11 AM
          Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


          > > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
          > combination of
          > > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
          > move the
          > > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
          > >
          > > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
          > try to
          > > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
          > the
          > > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.
          >
          > Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
          > easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
          > degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
          > files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
          > tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).
          >
          > If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
          > email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)
          >
          > -Hugh
          > hpyle@...
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Scott Loftesness
          Dave, I m just beginning (again) to try to use Groove. You can setup a shared file space into which files can be dropped by any participating user and
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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            Dave,

            I'm just beginning (again) to try to use Groove. You can setup a shared
            file "space" into which files can be dropped by any participating user and
            broadcast to the other users. Unfortunately, as I understand it, Groove
            keeps all these files in encrypted form on the Windows file system. There's
            probably a way to 'export' them from the Groove space -- but I've not
            figured out how. In other words, I believe a bit of work in Groove would be
            required to expose the files in Windows file formats to make them accessible
            to RU.

            Still digging!

            Scott

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:58 AM
            > To: radio-userland@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
            >
            >
            > OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around, I
            > have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to run
            > inside Groove. This was the same kind of "opportunity" Java offered, it's
            > "jump in my bathtub" story that I find uninteresting (too much work, too
            > risky). Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between
            > users? We
            > can do the joining of outlines in Radio, that's something it's quite good
            > at. Dave
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: <hpyle@...>
            > To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:11 AM
            > Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
            >
            >
            > > > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
            > > combination of
            > > > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
            > > move the
            > > > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
            > > >
            > > > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
            > > try to
            > > > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
            > > the
            > > > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.
            > >
            > > Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
            > > easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
            > > degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
            > > files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
            > > tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).
            > >
            > > If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
            > > email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)
            > >
            > > -Hugh
            > > hpyle@...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Julian Bond
            In article , Dave Winer writes ... Oh, Yes. Just drop the file in the Files folder of a shared
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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              In article <1aa601c09c2f$cd893090$33a1dc40@murphy2>, Dave Winer
              <dave@...> writes
              >Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between users?

              Oh, Yes. Just drop the file in the "Files" folder of a shared space.
              Some time later, the file auto-magically appears in that folder for
              everyone else in the space.

              Bear in mind, there's no file locking and anyone in the space can
              replace the shared copy. It's not a VCS. Probably.

              Think Lotus Notes meets ICQ. Current Groove tools include these with
              more coming from third parties
              - Discussion Forum
              - Shared Files
              - Mind Map brainstorming
              - Notepad
              - Outliner
              - Pictures
              - Chat
              - Voice over IP, one to one or conferenced
              - Sketchpad
              - Single or Group Browsing
              - Instant Message

              --
              Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
              HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
              WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
              WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
              M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
              ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
            • Dave Winer
              Scott, that s the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or set of folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file arrives, we can fold
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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                Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or set of
                folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file arrives, we
                can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the bridge we
                want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy, the win for
                Groove is users. Dave

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Scott Loftesness" <sjl@...>
                To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 10:13 AM
                Subject: RE: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


                > Dave,
                >
                > I'm just beginning (again) to try to use Groove. You can setup a shared
                > file "space" into which files can be dropped by any participating user and
                > broadcast to the other users. Unfortunately, as I understand it, Groove
                > keeps all these files in encrypted form on the Windows file system.
                There's
                > probably a way to 'export' them from the Groove space -- but I've not
                > figured out how. In other words, I believe a bit of work in Groove would
                be
                > required to expose the files in Windows file formats to make them
                accessible
                > to RU.
                >
                > Still digging!
                >
                > Scott
                >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
                > > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:58 AM
                > > To: radio-userland@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
                > >
                > >
                > > OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around,
                I
                > > have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to
                run
                > > inside Groove. This was the same kind of "opportunity" Java offered,
                it's
                > > "jump in my bathtub" story that I find uninteresting (too much work, too
                > > risky). Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between
                > > users? We
                > > can do the joining of outlines in Radio, that's something it's quite
                good
                > > at. Dave
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: <hpyle@...>
                > > To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:11 AM
                > > Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
                > >
                > >
                > > > > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
                > > > combination of
                > > > > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
                > > > move the
                > > > > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
                > > > >
                > > > > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
                > > > try to
                > > > > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
                > > > the
                > > > > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.
                > > >
                > > > Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
                > > > easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
                > > > degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
                > > > files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
                > > > tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).
                > > >
                > > > If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
                > > > email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)
                > > >
                > > > -Hugh
                > > > hpyle@...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • stutzbforked@hotmail.com
                ... set of ... arrives, we ... bridge we ... the win for ... Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to accomplish what you want -
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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                  > Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or
                  set of
                  > folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file
                  arrives, we
                  > can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the
                  bridge we
                  > want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy,
                  the win for
                  > Groove is users. Dave
                  >

                  Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to
                  accomplish what you want - since Groove spaces are secure,
                  you'll need to log in from your code, subscribe to change
                  notifications, and stay logged in while you are listening, if I'm not
                  mistaken.

                  (Alternatively, I suppose that you could inject a tool of your own
                  manufacture into Groove that pings Radio when changes
                  happen...depends on whether you want Radio or Groove to be on top...)
                • Dave Winer
                  Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how it must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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                    Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how it
                    must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do
                    the obvious thing. The problem with COM is that it won't work for Mac users.
                    At least through the file system, if you have a PC on your LAN somewhere,
                    you can have it run Groove and still be part of a workgroup from the Mac
                    desktop. We have a special requirement that we at least try to include the
                    Mac people in all our Rube Goldberg puzzles. ;-> Dave


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <stutzbforked@...>
                    To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:52 AM
                    Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


                    > > Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or
                    > set of
                    > > folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file
                    > arrives, we
                    > > can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the
                    > bridge we
                    > > want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy,
                    > the win for
                    > > Groove is users. Dave
                    > >
                    >
                    > Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to
                    > accomplish what you want - since Groove spaces are secure,
                    > you'll need to log in from your code, subscribe to change
                    > notifications, and stay logged in while you are listening, if I'm not
                    > mistaken.
                    >
                    > (Alternatively, I suppose that you could inject a tool of your own
                    > manufacture into Groove that pings Radio when changes
                    > happen...depends on whether you want Radio or Groove to be on top...)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Dave Winer
                    Oooops, I m having a Bad Hair Day. Obviously it would work, just put the copy of Radio on the same machine as Groove and drop the files in a folder, or
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
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                      Oooops, I'm having a Bad Hair Day. Obviously it would work, just put the
                      copy of Radio on the same machine as Groove and drop the files in a folder,
                      or transmit them via SOAP or XML-RPC (boy I'm getting tired of typing that)
                      or Apple Events or whatever. I guess I'm just grouchy because I've never
                      programmed COM in Frontier and I already know more about COM than I want to.
                      Dave


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...>
                      To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:34 PM
                      Subject: Re: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


                      > Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how
                      it
                      > must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do
                      > the obvious thing. The problem with COM is that it won't work for Mac
                      users.
                      > At least through the file system, if you have a PC on your LAN somewhere,
                      > you can have it run Groove and still be part of a workgroup from the Mac
                      > desktop. We have a special requirement that we at least try to include the
                      > Mac people in all our Rube Goldberg puzzles. ;-> Dave
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: <stutzbforked@...>
                      > To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:52 AM
                      > Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
                      >
                      >
                      > > > Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or
                      > > set of
                      > > > folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file
                      > > arrives, we
                      > > > can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the
                      > > bridge we
                      > > > want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy,
                      > > the win for
                      > > > Groove is users. Dave
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to
                      > > accomplish what you want - since Groove spaces are secure,
                      > > you'll need to log in from your code, subscribe to change
                      > > notifications, and stay logged in while you are listening, if I'm not
                      > > mistaken.
                      > >
                      > > (Alternatively, I suppose that you could inject a tool of your own
                      > > manufacture into Groove that pings Radio when changes
                      > > happen...depends on whether you want Radio or Groove to be on top...)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • rose@tele.dtu.dk
                      Has anyone considered using Magi for moving the outlines around in a controlled way? (http://www.endeavors.org/html/index.html). From their PR: Simply stated,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 22, 2001
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                        Has anyone considered using Magi for moving the outlines around in a controlled way? (http://www.endeavors.org/html/index.html). From their PR:
                        "Simply stated, MagiExpress is a personal Web server that allows users to easily store and retrieve information. A MagiExpress server restricts who has access to download and view files using a buddy list . Users can share and synchronize information on their own desktop, laptop, or palmtop using a MagiExpress server from anywhere as if it were a local directory."

                        It looks like there will be some work involved in adding SOAP/XML-RPC on the Magi end (http://www.endeavors.org/html/faq.html ), but it's open source and multiplatform - though I have to admit I haven't figured out how they've divided the open part from the commercial product yet.

                        I haven't tried it yet - I've been living a foolhardy experiment in seeing how productive I can be in a pure MacOSX environment :).

                        Michael



                        --- In radio-userland@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                        > Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how it
                        > must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do
                        > the obvious thing. The problem with COM is that it won't work for Mac users.
                        > At least through the file system, if you have a PC on your LAN somewhere,
                        > you can have it run Groove and still be part of a workgroup from the Mac
                        > desktop. We have a special requirement that we at least try to include the
                        > Mac people in all our Rube Goldberg puzzles. ;-> Dave
                        >
                        >
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