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  • hpyle@agora.co.uk
    (I just arrived here, btw). Radar ears; thanks for the link Julian. At agora we think p2p (and groove in particular) is very important, and as a solution
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
      (I just arrived here, btw). Radar ears; thanks for the link Julian.

      At agora we think p2p (and groove in particular) is very important,
      and as a solution provider we're building some neat applications for
      corporate and B2B use. We also think that it can revolutionise
      consumer-brand activities. Some context:

      "In a highly networked world, doing business well means more than
      adopting online promotion, viral marketing or any of the conventional
      wisdom about selling the same thing in a different way. It means
      designing media whose primary value lies in its ability to connect
      people." -
      http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,22187,00.html

      That paragraph is basically the entire content of my presentation at
      the European p2p summit earlier this week.

      Personally - although I don't have very much budget to build this
      sort of stuff speculatively - I'm very very interested in bridging
      the gap between "public areas" (web, 2-way-web, mail lists, usenet,
      weblogs, syndicated news, freenet storage etc) and "private areas"
      (groove spaces, for example). That's one of the motivations behind
      groovelog, and we have a bunch of prototype applications coming down
      the pike which are designed around using public media for rendezvous
      of private groups.

      -Hugh
      hpyle@...
    • Dave Winer
      Hi Hugh, thanks for joining the list. I have a prototype application in mind that Groove might be able to help with. At UserLand everyone keeps a project
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
        Hi Hugh, thanks for joining the list.

        I have a prototype application in mind that Groove might be able to help
        with.

        At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The combination of
        all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to move the
        pieces around, yet, without making them public.

        Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to try to
        leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably the
        highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.

        Dave
      • hpyle@agora.co.uk
        ... combination of ... move the ... try to ... the ... Sounds a good story. I m assuming the outlines are OPML, which is easy to parse and can be stored
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
          > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
          combination of
          > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
          move the
          > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
          >
          > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
          try to
          > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
          the
          > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.

          Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
          easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
          degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
          files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
          tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).

          If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
          email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)

          -Hugh
          hpyle@...
        • Dave Winer
          OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around, I have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to run inside
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
            OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around, I
            have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to run
            inside Groove. This was the same kind of "opportunity" Java offered, it's
            "jump in my bathtub" story that I find uninteresting (too much work, too
            risky). Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between users? We
            can do the joining of outlines in Radio, that's something it's quite good
            at. Dave


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <hpyle@...>
            To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:11 AM
            Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


            > > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
            > combination of
            > > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
            > move the
            > > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
            > >
            > > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
            > try to
            > > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
            > the
            > > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.
            >
            > Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
            > easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
            > degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
            > files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
            > tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).
            >
            > If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
            > email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)
            >
            > -Hugh
            > hpyle@...
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Scott Loftesness
            Dave, I m just beginning (again) to try to use Groove. You can setup a shared file space into which files can be dropped by any participating user and
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
              Dave,

              I'm just beginning (again) to try to use Groove. You can setup a shared
              file "space" into which files can be dropped by any participating user and
              broadcast to the other users. Unfortunately, as I understand it, Groove
              keeps all these files in encrypted form on the Windows file system. There's
              probably a way to 'export' them from the Groove space -- but I've not
              figured out how. In other words, I believe a bit of work in Groove would be
              required to expose the files in Windows file formats to make them accessible
              to RU.

              Still digging!

              Scott

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:58 AM
              > To: radio-userland@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
              >
              >
              > OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around, I
              > have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to run
              > inside Groove. This was the same kind of "opportunity" Java offered, it's
              > "jump in my bathtub" story that I find uninteresting (too much work, too
              > risky). Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between
              > users? We
              > can do the joining of outlines in Radio, that's something it's quite good
              > at. Dave
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <hpyle@...>
              > To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:11 AM
              > Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
              >
              >
              > > > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
              > > combination of
              > > > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
              > > move the
              > > > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
              > > >
              > > > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
              > > try to
              > > > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
              > > the
              > > > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.
              > >
              > > Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
              > > easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
              > > degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
              > > files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
              > > tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).
              > >
              > > If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
              > > email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)
              > >
              > > -Hugh
              > > hpyle@...
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Julian Bond
              In article , Dave Winer writes ... Oh, Yes. Just drop the file in the Files folder of a shared
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
                In article <1aa601c09c2f$cd893090$33a1dc40@murphy2>, Dave Winer
                <dave@...> writes
                >Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between users?

                Oh, Yes. Just drop the file in the "Files" folder of a shared space.
                Some time later, the file auto-magically appears in that folder for
                everyone else in the space.

                Bear in mind, there's no file locking and anyone in the space can
                replace the shared copy. It's not a VCS. Probably.

                Think Lotus Notes meets ICQ. Current Groove tools include these with
                more coming from third parties
                - Discussion Forum
                - Shared Files
                - Mind Map brainstorming
                - Notepad
                - Outliner
                - Pictures
                - Chat
                - Voice over IP, one to one or conferenced
                - Sketchpad
                - Single or Group Browsing
                - Instant Message

                --
                Julian Bond eMail: julian@...
                HomeURL: http://www.shockwav.demon.co.uk/
                WorkURL: http://www.netmarketseurope.com/
                WebLog: http://roguemoon.manilasites.com/
                M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173 T: +44 (0)20 7420 4363
                ICQ:33679668 tag:So many words, so little time
              • Dave Winer
                Scott, that s the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or set of folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file arrives, we can fold
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
                  Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or set of
                  folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file arrives, we
                  can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the bridge we
                  want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy, the win for
                  Groove is users. Dave

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Scott Loftesness" <sjl@...>
                  To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 10:13 AM
                  Subject: RE: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


                  > Dave,
                  >
                  > I'm just beginning (again) to try to use Groove. You can setup a shared
                  > file "space" into which files can be dropped by any participating user and
                  > broadcast to the other users. Unfortunately, as I understand it, Groove
                  > keeps all these files in encrypted form on the Windows file system.
                  There's
                  > probably a way to 'export' them from the Groove space -- but I've not
                  > figured out how. In other words, I believe a bit of work in Groove would
                  be
                  > required to expose the files in Windows file formats to make them
                  accessible
                  > to RU.
                  >
                  > Still digging!
                  >
                  > Scott
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@...]
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:58 AM
                  > > To: radio-userland@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > OK, to be clear, I just want to use Groove to move the outlines around,
                  I
                  > > have no interest in using their outliner, or in porting my outliner to
                  run
                  > > inside Groove. This was the same kind of "opportunity" Java offered,
                  it's
                  > > "jump in my bathtub" story that I find uninteresting (too much work, too
                  > > risky). Is there no way to get Groove to distribute files between
                  > > users? We
                  > > can do the joining of outlines in Radio, that's something it's quite
                  good
                  > > at. Dave
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: <hpyle@...>
                  > > To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 9:11 AM
                  > > Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > > At UserLand everyone keeps a project outline in Radio. The
                  > > > combination of
                  > > > > all the outlines is also a document. But we don't have a way to
                  > > > move the
                  > > > > pieces around, yet, without making them public.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Is this something that Groove can help with? In principle I want to
                  > > > try to
                  > > > > leverage their work before reinventing the wheel. This is probably
                  > > > the
                  > > > > highest value intersection point betw what we do and what they do.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sounds a good story. I'm assuming the outlines are OPML, which is
                  > > > easy to parse and can be stored natively inside a Groove app. The
                  > > > degree of integration would vary from easy-but-clunky (share OPML
                  > > > files in the groove files tool) through seamless (a custom groove
                  > > > tool which understands OPML and becomes a meta-outliner).
                  > > >
                  > > > If you have any more pointers to how this should work, feel free to
                  > > > email them straight to me for bedtime reading...:)
                  > > >
                  > > > -Hugh
                  > > > hpyle@...
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • stutzbforked@hotmail.com
                  ... set of ... arrives, we ... bridge we ... the win for ... Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to accomplish what you want -
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
                    > Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or
                    set of
                    > folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file
                    arrives, we
                    > can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the
                    bridge we
                    > want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy,
                    the win for
                    > Groove is users. Dave
                    >

                    Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to
                    accomplish what you want - since Groove spaces are secure,
                    you'll need to log in from your code, subscribe to change
                    notifications, and stay logged in while you are listening, if I'm not
                    mistaken.

                    (Alternatively, I suppose that you could inject a tool of your own
                    manufacture into Groove that pings Radio when changes
                    happen...depends on whether you want Radio or Groove to be on top...)
                  • Dave Winer
                    Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how it must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
                      Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how it
                      must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do
                      the obvious thing. The problem with COM is that it won't work for Mac users.
                      At least through the file system, if you have a PC on your LAN somewhere,
                      you can have it run Groove and still be part of a workgroup from the Mac
                      desktop. We have a special requirement that we at least try to include the
                      Mac people in all our Rube Goldberg puzzles. ;-> Dave


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <stutzbforked@...>
                      To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:52 AM
                      Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


                      > > Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or
                      > set of
                      > > folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file
                      > arrives, we
                      > > can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the
                      > bridge we
                      > > want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy,
                      > the win for
                      > > Groove is users. Dave
                      > >
                      >
                      > Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to
                      > accomplish what you want - since Groove spaces are secure,
                      > you'll need to log in from your code, subscribe to change
                      > notifications, and stay logged in while you are listening, if I'm not
                      > mistaken.
                      >
                      > (Alternatively, I suppose that you could inject a tool of your own
                      > manufacture into Groove that pings Radio when changes
                      > happen...depends on whether you want Radio or Groove to be on top...)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Dave Winer
                      Oooops, I m having a Bad Hair Day. Obviously it would work, just put the copy of Radio on the same machine as Groove and drop the files in a folder, or
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 21, 2001
                        Oooops, I'm having a Bad Hair Day. Obviously it would work, just put the
                        copy of Radio on the same machine as Groove and drop the files in a folder,
                        or transmit them via SOAP or XML-RPC (boy I'm getting tired of typing that)
                        or Apple Events or whatever. I guess I'm just grouchy because I've never
                        programmed COM in Frontier and I already know more about COM than I want to.
                        Dave


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dave Winer" <dave@...>
                        To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:34 PM
                        Subject: Re: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around


                        > Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how
                        it
                        > must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do
                        > the obvious thing. The problem with COM is that it won't work for Mac
                        users.
                        > At least through the file system, if you have a PC on your LAN somewhere,
                        > you can have it run Groove and still be part of a workgroup from the Mac
                        > desktop. We have a special requirement that we at least try to include the
                        > Mac people in all our Rube Goldberg puzzles. ;-> Dave
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: <stutzbforked@...>
                        > To: <radio-userland@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:52 AM
                        > Subject: [radio-userland] Re: Groove to move outlines around
                        >
                        >
                        > > > Scott, that's the key. If we can get Groove to maintain a folder or
                        > > set of
                        > > > folders that Radio can watch, then when a new or updated file
                        > > arrives, we
                        > > > can fold it into any Radio data structure we want. This is the
                        > > bridge we
                        > > > want between the two worlds. The win for Radio users is privacy,
                        > > the win for
                        > > > Groove is users. Dave
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > Dave, I believe that you should be able to use the Groove COM APIs to
                        > > accomplish what you want - since Groove spaces are secure,
                        > > you'll need to log in from your code, subscribe to change
                        > > notifications, and stay logged in while you are listening, if I'm not
                        > > mistaken.
                        > >
                        > > (Alternatively, I suppose that you could inject a tool of your own
                        > > manufacture into Groove that pings Radio when changes
                        > > happen...depends on whether you want Radio or Groove to be on top...)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > radio-userland-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • rose@tele.dtu.dk
                        Has anyone considered using Magi for moving the outlines around in a controlled way? (http://www.endeavors.org/html/index.html). From their PR: Simply stated,
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 22, 2001
                          Has anyone considered using Magi for moving the outlines around in a controlled way? (http://www.endeavors.org/html/index.html). From their PR:
                          "Simply stated, MagiExpress is a personal Web server that allows users to easily store and retrieve information. A MagiExpress server restricts who has access to download and view files using a buddy list . Users can share and synchronize information on their own desktop, laptop, or palmtop using a MagiExpress server from anywhere as if it were a local directory."

                          It looks like there will be some work involved in adding SOAP/XML-RPC on the Magi end (http://www.endeavors.org/html/faq.html ), but it's open source and multiplatform - though I have to admit I haven't figured out how they've divided the open part from the commercial product yet.

                          I haven't tried it yet - I've been living a foolhardy experiment in seeing how productive I can be in a pure MacOSX environment :).

                          Michael



                          --- In radio-userland@y..., "Dave Winer" <dave@u...> wrote:
                          > Boy that sounds too complicated by an order of magnitude. Now I know how it
                          > must feel to be a user of one of our products waiting waiting for us to do
                          > the obvious thing. The problem with COM is that it won't work for Mac users.
                          > At least through the file system, if you have a PC on your LAN somewhere,
                          > you can have it run Groove and still be part of a workgroup from the Mac
                          > desktop. We have a special requirement that we at least try to include the
                          > Mac people in all our Rube Goldberg puzzles. ;-> Dave
                          >
                          >
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