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RE: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

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  • Rev. Dawson
    Glen, You mentioned Thanksgiving as a close to a national day of rest. It is interesting, isn t it, that the Christian Sabbath is still a Federal and State
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 21 11:22 AM

      Glen,

       

      You mentioned Thanksgiving as a close to a national day of rest. It is interesting, isn't it, that the Christian Sabbath is still a Federal and State holiday?

       

      Yours in Christ,

       

      Reverend Martin L. Dawson, Sr.

      Stratford Presbyterian Church

      www.stratfordpres.org

       

       

      From: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com [mailto:r-f-w@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Ferrell
      Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:45 AM
      To: r-f-w
      Subject: RE: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

       

       

      Bob:

      Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.'  The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son.  Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.

      However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.

      Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream. 

      Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.

       

      Glenn

      J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
      Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
      http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc

       


      To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
      From: bsuden@...
      Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
      Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

       

      Hello Glen and Brian,

      Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
      Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
      the moment.

      Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
      lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
      magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
      National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)

      Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
      celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
      Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
      Worship tells us that:

      <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
      people, or
      apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
      the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
      </i>

      It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
      one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
      the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
      normally associated with this coming Thursday.

      Thank you.

      cordially yrs.

      Bob S.

      (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
      figured out.)

      --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
      >
      > Bob:
      >
      > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
      judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
      such.
      >
      > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
      civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
      consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
      This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
      magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
      advancement of Christ's kingdom.
      >
      > Glenn
      >
      >
      > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
      Francisco.
      > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
      SF.
      >
      >
      http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
      .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245

      >
      > http://sfopc.org
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
      > From: ebrianhanley@...
      > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
      > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
      repent!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Bob,
      >
      > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
      government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
      there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
      reform - but acted. While we are part of
      > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
      that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
      22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
      petition is one way to have a voice.
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Brian
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: bob_suden bsuden@...
      > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
      > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
      repent!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
      wrote:
      > >
      > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
      > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
      > >
      >
      > Brian,
      > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
      > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
      the
      > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
      > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
      > where we are at now?
      >
      > thanks,
      >

    • bob_suden
      Glen, I m sorry, I didn t make myself perfectly clear. In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 21 1:29 PM
        Glen,

        I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.

        In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.

        And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.

        IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)

        Thank you,
        Bob S.




        --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
        >
        > Bob:
        >
        > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
        >
        > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
        >
        > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
        >
        > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
        > Glenn
        >
        > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
        > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
        >
        > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
        >
        > http://sfopc.org
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
        > From: bsuden@...
        > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
        > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello Glen and Brian,
        >
        >
        >
        > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
        >
        > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
        >
        > the moment.
        >
        >
        >
        > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
        >
        > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
        >
        > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
        >
        > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
        >
        >
        >
        > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
        >
        > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
        >
        > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
        >
        > Worship tells us that:
        >
        >
        >
        > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
        >
        > people, or
        >
        > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
        >
        > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
        >
        > </i>
        >
        >
        >
        > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
        >
        > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
        >
        > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
        >
        > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
        >
        >
        >
        > Thank you.
        >
        >
        >
        > cordially yrs.
        >
        >
        >
        > Bob S.
        >
        >
        >
        > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
        >
        > figured out.)
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Bob:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
        >
        > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
        >
        > such.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
        >
        > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
        >
        > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
        >
        > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
        >
        > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
        >
        > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Glenn
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
        >
        > Francisco.
        >
        > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
        >
        > SF.
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
        >
        > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
        >
        > >
        >
        > > http://sfopc.org
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > > From: ebrianhanley@
        >
        > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
        >
        > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
        >
        > repent!
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Hi Bob,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
        >
        > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
        >
        > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
        >
        > reform - but acted. While we are part of
        >
        > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
        >
        > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
        >
        > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
        >
        > petition is one way to have a voice.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > In Christ,
        >
        > > Brian
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
        >
        > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
        >
        > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
        >
        > repent!
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
        >
        > wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
        >
        > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Brian,
        >
        > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
        >
        > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
        >
        > the
        >
        > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
        >
        > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
        >
        > > where we are at now?
        >
        > >
        >
        > > thanks,
        >
        > >
        >
      • Glenn Ferrell
        Bob: Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too. Glenn J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 21 2:08 PM
          Bob:

          Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too. 

          Glenn

          J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
          Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
          http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc


          To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
          From: bsuden@...
          Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
          Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

           
          Glen,

          I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.

          In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.

          And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.

          IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)

          Thank you,
          Bob S.

          --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
          >
          > Bob:
          >
          > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
          >
          > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
          >
          > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
          >
          > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
          > Glenn
          >
          > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
          > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
          >
          > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
          >
          > http://sfopc.org
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
          > From: bsuden@...
          > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
          > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello Glen and Brian,
          >
          >
          >
          > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
          >
          > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
          >
          > the moment.
          >
          >
          >
          > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
          >
          > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
          >
          > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
          >
          > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
          >
          >
          >
          > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
          >
          > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
          >
          > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
          >
          > Worship tells us that:
          >
          >
          >
          > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
          >
          > people, or
          >
          > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
          >
          > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
          >
          > </i>
          >
          >
          >
          > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
          >
          > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
          >
          > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
          >
          > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
          >
          >
          >
          > Thank you.
          >
          >
          >
          > cordially yrs.
          >
          >
          >
          > Bob S.
          >
          >
          >
          > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
          >
          > figured out.)
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Bob:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
          >
          > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
          >
          > such.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
          >
          > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
          >
          > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
          >
          > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
          >
          > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
          >
          > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Glenn
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
          >
          > Francisco.
          >
          > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
          >
          > SF.
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
          >
          > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
          >
          > >
          >
          > > http://sfopc.org
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > > From: ebrianhanley@
          >
          > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
          >
          > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
          >
          > repent!
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Hi Bob,
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
          >
          > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
          >
          > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
          >
          > reform - but acted. While we are part of
          >
          > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
          >
          > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
          >
          > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
          >
          > petition is one way to have a voice.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > In Christ,
          >
          > > Brian
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
          >
          > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
          >
          > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
          >
          > repent!
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
          >
          > wrote:
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
          >
          > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
          >
          > > >
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Brian,
          >
          > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
          >
          > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
          >
          > the
          >
          > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
          >
          > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
          >
          > > where we are at now?
          >
          > >
          >
          > > thanks,
          >
          > >
          >


        • bob_suden
          Glen, Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 21 5:16 PM
            Glen,

            Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American church just because it's American and it's that time of year.

            If the civil magistrate is in gross, habitual and continued disobedience to God and calls for a day of thanksgiving, the church ought not to go along with it, publicly or FTM privately.

            After all, do we forbear to observe Christmas in public worship, but observe it at home privately? Isn't that what one, is called hypocrisy and two, leads to the reintroduction of the feastday into public worship sooner or later?

            Bob

            (You need to take Chris W. to Memphis Minnie's next time he is in town.)








            --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bob:
            >
            > Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too.
            >
            > Glenn
            >
            > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
            > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
            >
            > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
            >
            > http://sfopc.org
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
            > From: bsuden@...
            > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
            > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Glen,
            >
            >
            >
            > I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.
            >
            >
            >
            > In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.
            >
            >
            >
            > And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.
            >
            >
            >
            > IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank you,
            >
            > Bob S.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Bob:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
            >
            > > Glenn
            >
            > >
            >
            > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
            >
            > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
            >
            > >
            >
            > > http://sfopc.org
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > From: bsuden@
            >
            > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
            >
            > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Hello Glen and Brian,
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
            >
            > >
            >
            > > the moment.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
            >
            > >
            >
            > > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
            >
            > >
            >
            > > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
            >
            > >
            >
            > > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
            >
            > >
            >
            > > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Worship tells us that:
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
            >
            > >
            >
            > > people, or
            >
            > >
            >
            > > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
            >
            > >
            >
            > > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > </i>
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
            >
            > >
            >
            > > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
            >
            > >
            >
            > > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
            >
            > >
            >
            > > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Thank you.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > cordially yrs.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Bob S.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
            >
            > >
            >
            > > figured out.)
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Bob:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
            >
            > >
            >
            > > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
            >
            > >
            >
            > > such.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
            >
            > >
            >
            > > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
            >
            > >
            >
            > > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
            >
            > >
            >
            > > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
            >
            > >
            >
            > > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Glenn
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Francisco.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > SF.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
            >
            > >
            >
            > > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > http://sfopc.org
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > From: ebrianhanley@
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
            >
            > >
            >
            > > repent!
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Hi Bob,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
            >
            > >
            >
            > > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
            >
            > >
            >
            > > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
            >
            > >
            >
            > > reform - but acted. While we are part of
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
            >
            > >
            >
            > > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
            >
            > >
            >
            > > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
            >
            > >
            >
            > > petition is one way to have a voice.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > In Christ,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Brian
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
            >
            > >
            >
            > > repent!
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
            >
            > >
            >
            > > wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Brian,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
            >
            > >
            >
            > > the
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > where we are at now?
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > thanks,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
          • Glenn Ferrell
            Bob: I entirely agree Christians need to avoid any semblance of endorsement or participation in the American National Religion, publicly or privately; as well
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 22 10:22 AM
              Bob:

              I entirely agree Christians need to avoid any semblance of endorsement or participation in the American National Religion, publicly or privately; as well as avoid public and private worship acknowledging man made feast days.

              However, there is a difference in acknowledging or taking advantage of a cultural or seasonal celebration in one's home for the enjoyment of rest, food, family, hospitality, and prayer to the glory of God, as a believer should do on any providential opportunity. 

              I'm happy this is a peaceful day, with families getting together, showing hospitality toward those without family nearby, remembering and thanking God for the blessings of the past year, taking advantage of time off from work or school, enjoying the bounty of the fall harvest.

              None of that necessitates a Christian's endorsement of a blasphemous proclamation of a God defying government asking people to acknowledge a generic god, an idolatrous national cult, or any worship not appropriate to to believers on any day of the week. And, thankfully, Thanksgiving Day never falls on the Lord's Day, as the 25th of December periodically does.

              Glenn

              J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
              Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
              http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc


              To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              From: bsuden@...
              Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:16:40 +0000
              Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

               
              Glen,

              Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American church just because it's American and it's that time of year.

              If the civil magistrate is in gross, habitual and continued disobedience to God and calls for a day of thanksgiving, the church ought not to go along with it, publicly or FTM privately.

              After all, do we forbear to observe Christmas in public worship, but observe it at home privately? Isn't that what one, is called hypocrisy and two, leads to the reintroduction of the feastday into public worship sooner or later?

              Bob

              (You need to take Chris W. to Memphis Minnie's next time he is in town.)

              --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bob:
              >
              > Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too.
              >
              > Glenn
              >
              > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
              > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
              >
              > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
              >
              > http://sfopc.org
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              > From: bsuden@...
              > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
              > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Glen,
              >
              >
              >
              > I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.
              >
              >
              >
              > In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.
              >
              >
              >
              > And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.
              >
              >
              >
              > IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)
              >
              >
              >
              > Thank you,
              >
              > Bob S.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Bob:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
              >
              > > Glenn
              >
              > >
              >
              > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
              >
              > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
              >
              > >
              >
              > > http://sfopc.org
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > From: bsuden@
              >
              > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
              >
              > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
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              > >
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              > >
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              > >
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              > >
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              > >
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              > >
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              > >
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              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Hello Glen and Brian,
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
              >
              > >
              >
              > > the moment.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
              >
              > >
              >
              > > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
              >
              > >
              >
              > > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
              >
              > >
              >
              > > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
              >
              > >
              >
              > > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Worship tells us that:
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
              >
              > >
              >
              > > people, or
              >
              > >
              >
              > > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
              >
              > >
              >
              > > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > </i>
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
              >
              > >
              >
              > > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
              >
              > >
              >
              > > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
              >
              > >
              >
              > > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Thank you.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > cordially yrs.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Bob S.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
              >
              > >
              >
              > > figured out.)
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Bob:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
              >
              > >
              >
              > > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
              >
              > >
              >
              > > such.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
              >
              > >
              >
              > > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
              >
              > >
              >
              > > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
              >
              > >
              >
              > > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
              >
              > >
              >
              > > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Glenn
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Francisco.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > SF.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
              >
              > >
              >
              > > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > http://sfopc.org
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > From: ebrianhanley@
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
              >
              > >
              >
              > > repent!
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Hi Bob,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
              >
              > >
              >
              > > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
              >
              > >
              >
              > > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
              >
              > >
              >
              > > reform - but acted. While we are part of
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
              >
              > >
              >
              > > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
              >
              > >
              >
              > > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
              >
              > >
              >
              > > petition is one way to have a voice.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > In Christ,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Brian
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
              >
              > >
              >
              > > repent!
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
              >
              > >
              >
              > > wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Brian,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
              >
              > >
              >
              > > the
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > where we are at now?
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > thanks,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >


            • bob_suden
              Glen, IOW the opening line to the West.Directory on Days of Prayer has nothing to say to us today? While I am more inclined to go with the 1788 WCF revisions
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 24 1:08 PM
                Glen,

                IOW the opening line to the West.Directory on Days of Prayer has nothing to say to us today?

                While I am more inclined to go with the 1788 WCF revisions and the 2K view of things, I don't think that gets the church off the hook as we watch, what looks like a slow moving political, economical and moral train wreck.

                thanks,
                Bob S.


                --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                >
                > Bob:
                >
                > I entirely agree Christians need to avoid any semblance of endorsement or participation in the American National Religion, publicly or privately; as well as avoid public and private worship acknowledging man made feast days.
                >
                > However, there is a difference in acknowledging or taking advantage of a cultural or seasonal celebration in one's home for the enjoyment of rest, food, family, hospitality, and prayer to the glory of God, as a believer should do on any providential opportunity.
                >
                > I'm happy this is a peaceful day, with families getting together, showing hospitality toward those without family nearby, remembering and thanking God for the blessings of the past year, taking advantage of time off from work or school, enjoying the bounty of the fall harvest.
                >
                > None of that necessitates a Christian's endorsement of a blasphemous proclamation of a God defying government asking people to acknowledge a generic god, an idolatrous national cult, or any worship not appropriate to to believers on any day of the week. And, thankfully, Thanksgiving Day never falls on the Lord's Day, as the 25th of December periodically does.
                > Glenn
                >
                > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                >
                > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                >
                > http://sfopc.org
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                > From: bsuden@...
                > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:16:40 +0000
                > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Glen,
                >
                >
                >
                > Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American church just because it's American and it's that time of year.
                >
                >
                >
                > If the civil magistrate is in gross, habitual and continued disobedience to God and calls for a day of thanksgiving, the church ought not to go along with it, publicly or FTM privately.
                >
                >
                >
                > After all, do we forbear to observe Christmas in public worship, but observe it at home privately? Isn't that what one, is called hypocrisy and two, leads to the reintroduction of the feastday into public worship sooner or later?
                >
                >
                >
                > Bob
                >
                >
                >
                > (You need to take Chris W. to Memphis Minnie's next time he is in town.)
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Bob:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Glenn
                >
                > >
                >
                > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                >
                > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                >
                > >
                >
                > > http://sfopc.org
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > From: bsuden@
                >
                > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
                >
                > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
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                > >
                >
                > >
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                > >
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                > >
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                > >
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                > >
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                > >
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                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
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                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Glen,
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Thank you,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Bob S.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Bob:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Glenn
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > http://sfopc.org
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > From: bsuden@
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
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                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
                >
                > >
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                > > >
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                > > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Hello Glen and Brian,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > the moment.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
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                > > > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
                >
                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > > > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > Worship tells us that:
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > people, or
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > </i>
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > > > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
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                > >
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                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > Thank you.
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > cordially yrs.
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > Bob S.
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > figured out.)
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > > Bob:
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > such.
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
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                > > > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > > Glenn
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > Francisco.
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > SF.
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > > http://sfopc.org
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > From: ebrianhanley@
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > repent!
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
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                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
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                > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Hi Bob,
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > reform - but acted. While we are part of
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > petition is one way to have a voice.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > In Christ,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Brian
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > repent!
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
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                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Brian,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > the
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > where we are at now?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > thanks,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
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