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RE: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

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  • Glenn Ferrell
    Bob: I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God s judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being such. But,
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 19 11:51 AM
      Bob:

      I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being such. 

      But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law. This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the advancement of Christ's kingdom.

      Glenn


      J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
      Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
      http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc


      To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
      From: ebrianhanley@...
      Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
      Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

       

      Hi Bob,
       
      I see the family, church, and nation as different governments.  Each government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think there is a needful order.   King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to reform - but acted.   While we are part of a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a petition is one way to have a voice.
       
      In Christ,
      Brian
       

      From: bob_suden <bsuden@...>
      To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
      Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
       

      --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" <ebrianhanley@...> wrote:
      >
      > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
      > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
      >

      Brian,
      Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
      calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because the
      church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
      the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
      where we are at now?

      thanks,


    • bob_suden
      Hello Glen and Brian, Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1 Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 20 10:06 PM
        Hello Glen and Brian,

        Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
        Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
        the moment.

        Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
        lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
        magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
        National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)

        Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
        celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
        Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
        Worship tells us that:

        <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
        people, or
        apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
        the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
        </i>

        It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
        one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
        the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
        normally associated with this coming Thursday.

        Thank you.

        cordially yrs.

        Bob S.

        (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
        figured out.)



        --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
        >
        > Bob:
        >
        > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
        judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
        such.
        >
        > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
        civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
        consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
        This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
        magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
        advancement of Christ's kingdom.
        >
        > Glenn
        >
        >
        > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
        Francisco.
        > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
        SF.
        >
        >
        http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
        .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
        >
        > http://sfopc.org
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
        > From: ebrianhanley@...
        > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
        > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
        repent!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Bob,
        >
        > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
        government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
        there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
        reform - but acted. While we are part of
        > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
        that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
        22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
        petition is one way to have a voice.
        >
        > In Christ,
        > Brian
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: bob_suden bsuden@...
        > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
        > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
        repent!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
        wrote:
        > >
        > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
        > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
        > >
        >
        > Brian,
        > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
        > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
        the
        > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
        > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
        > where we are at now?
        >
        > thanks,
        >
      • Glenn Ferrell
        Bob: Certainly, the nation takes God s name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places In God We Trust
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 21 8:45 AM
          Bob:

          Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.'  The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son.  Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.

          However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.

          Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream. 

          Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.

          Glenn

          J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
          Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
          http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc


          To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
          From: bsuden@...
          Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
          Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

           
          Hello Glen and Brian,

          Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
          Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
          the moment.

          Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
          lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
          magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
          National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)

          Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
          celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
          Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
          Worship tells us that:

          <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
          people, or
          apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
          the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
          </i>

          It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
          one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
          the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
          normally associated with this coming Thursday.

          Thank you.

          cordially yrs.

          Bob S.

          (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
          figured out.)

          --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
          >
          > Bob:
          >
          > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
          judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
          such.
          >
          > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
          civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
          consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
          This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
          magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
          advancement of Christ's kingdom.
          >
          > Glenn
          >
          >
          > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
          Francisco.
          > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
          SF.
          >
          >
          http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
          .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245

          >
          > http://sfopc.org
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
          > From: ebrianhanley@...
          > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
          > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
          repent!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Bob,
          >
          > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
          government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
          there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
          reform - but acted. While we are part of
          > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
          that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
          22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
          petition is one way to have a voice.
          >
          > In Christ,
          > Brian
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: bob_suden bsuden@...
          > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
          > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
          repent!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
          wrote:
          > >
          > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
          > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
          > >
          >
          > Brian,
          > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
          > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
          the
          > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
          > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
          > where we are at now?
          >
          > thanks,
          >


        • Rev. Dawson
          Glen, You mentioned Thanksgiving as a close to a national day of rest. It is interesting, isn t it, that the Christian Sabbath is still a Federal and State
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 21 11:22 AM

            Glen,

             

            You mentioned Thanksgiving as a close to a national day of rest. It is interesting, isn't it, that the Christian Sabbath is still a Federal and State holiday?

             

            Yours in Christ,

             

            Reverend Martin L. Dawson, Sr.

            Stratford Presbyterian Church

            www.stratfordpres.org

             

             

            From: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com [mailto:r-f-w@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Ferrell
            Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:45 AM
            To: r-f-w
            Subject: RE: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

             

             

            Bob:

            Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.'  The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son.  Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.

            However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.

            Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream. 

            Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.

             

            Glenn

            J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
            Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
            http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc

             


            To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
            From: bsuden@...
            Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
            Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

             

            Hello Glen and Brian,

            Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
            Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
            the moment.

            Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
            lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
            magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
            National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)

            Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
            celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
            Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
            Worship tells us that:

            <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
            people, or
            apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
            the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
            </i>

            It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
            one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
            the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
            normally associated with this coming Thursday.

            Thank you.

            cordially yrs.

            Bob S.

            (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
            figured out.)

            --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bob:
            >
            > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
            judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
            such.
            >
            > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
            civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
            consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
            This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
            magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
            advancement of Christ's kingdom.
            >
            > Glenn
            >
            >
            > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
            Francisco.
            > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
            SF.
            >
            >
            http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
            .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245

            >
            > http://sfopc.org
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
            > From: ebrianhanley@...
            > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
            > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
            repent!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Bob,
            >
            > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
            government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
            there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
            reform - but acted. While we are part of
            > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
            that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
            22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
            petition is one way to have a voice.
            >
            > In Christ,
            > Brian
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: bob_suden bsuden@...
            > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
            > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
            repent!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
            wrote:
            > >
            > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
            > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
            > >
            >
            > Brian,
            > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
            > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
            the
            > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
            > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
            > where we are at now?
            >
            > thanks,
            >

          • bob_suden
            Glen, I m sorry, I didn t make myself perfectly clear. In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 21 1:29 PM
              Glen,

              I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.

              In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.

              And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.

              IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)

              Thank you,
              Bob S.




              --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bob:
              >
              > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
              >
              > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
              >
              > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
              >
              > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
              > Glenn
              >
              > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
              > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
              >
              > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
              >
              > http://sfopc.org
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              > From: bsuden@...
              > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
              > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello Glen and Brian,
              >
              >
              >
              > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
              >
              > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
              >
              > the moment.
              >
              >
              >
              > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
              >
              > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
              >
              > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
              >
              > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
              >
              >
              >
              > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
              >
              > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
              >
              > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
              >
              > Worship tells us that:
              >
              >
              >
              > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
              >
              > people, or
              >
              > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
              >
              > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
              >
              > </i>
              >
              >
              >
              > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
              >
              > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
              >
              > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
              >
              > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
              >
              >
              >
              > Thank you.
              >
              >
              >
              > cordially yrs.
              >
              >
              >
              > Bob S.
              >
              >
              >
              > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
              >
              > figured out.)
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Bob:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
              >
              > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
              >
              > such.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
              >
              > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
              >
              > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
              >
              > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
              >
              > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
              >
              > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Glenn
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
              >
              > Francisco.
              >
              > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
              >
              > SF.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
              >
              > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
              >
              > >
              >
              > > http://sfopc.org
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > From: ebrianhanley@
              >
              > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
              >
              > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
              >
              > repent!
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Hi Bob,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
              >
              > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
              >
              > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
              >
              > reform - but acted. While we are part of
              >
              > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
              >
              > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
              >
              > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
              >
              > petition is one way to have a voice.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > In Christ,
              >
              > > Brian
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
              >
              > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
              >
              > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
              >
              > repent!
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
              >
              > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Brian,
              >
              > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
              >
              > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
              >
              > the
              >
              > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
              >
              > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
              >
              > > where we are at now?
              >
              > >
              >
              > > thanks,
              >
              > >
              >
            • Glenn Ferrell
              Bob: Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too. Glenn J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 21 2:08 PM
                Bob:

                Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too. 

                Glenn

                J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc


                To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                From: bsuden@...
                Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
                Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

                 
                Glen,

                I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.

                In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.

                And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.

                IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)

                Thank you,
                Bob S.

                --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                >
                > Bob:
                >
                > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
                >
                > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
                >
                > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
                >
                > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
                > Glenn
                >
                > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                >
                > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                >
                > http://sfopc.org
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                > From: bsuden@...
                > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
                > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Glen and Brian,
                >
                >
                >
                > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
                >
                > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
                >
                > the moment.
                >
                >
                >
                > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
                >
                > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
                >
                > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
                >
                > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
                >
                >
                >
                > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
                >
                > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
                >
                > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
                >
                > Worship tells us that:
                >
                >
                >
                > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
                >
                > people, or
                >
                > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
                >
                > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
                >
                > </i>
                >
                >
                >
                > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
                >
                > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
                >
                > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
                >
                > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
                >
                >
                >
                > Thank you.
                >
                >
                >
                > cordially yrs.
                >
                >
                >
                > Bob S.
                >
                >
                >
                > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
                >
                > figured out.)
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Bob:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
                >
                > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
                >
                > such.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
                >
                > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
                >
                > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
                >
                > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
                >
                > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
                >
                > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Glenn
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
                >
                > Francisco.
                >
                > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
                >
                > SF.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
                >
                > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                >
                > >
                >
                > > http://sfopc.org
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > From: ebrianhanley@
                >
                > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
                >
                > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                >
                > repent!
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Hi Bob,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
                >
                > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
                >
                > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
                >
                > reform - but acted. While we are part of
                >
                > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
                >
                > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
                >
                > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
                >
                > petition is one way to have a voice.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > In Christ,
                >
                > > Brian
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
                >
                > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
                >
                > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                >
                > repent!
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
                >
                > wrote:
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
                >
                > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Brian,
                >
                > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
                >
                > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
                >
                > the
                >
                > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
                >
                > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
                >
                > > where we are at now?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > thanks,
                >
                > >
                >


              • bob_suden
                Glen, Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 21 5:16 PM
                  Glen,

                  Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American church just because it's American and it's that time of year.

                  If the civil magistrate is in gross, habitual and continued disobedience to God and calls for a day of thanksgiving, the church ought not to go along with it, publicly or FTM privately.

                  After all, do we forbear to observe Christmas in public worship, but observe it at home privately? Isn't that what one, is called hypocrisy and two, leads to the reintroduction of the feastday into public worship sooner or later?

                  Bob

                  (You need to take Chris W. to Memphis Minnie's next time he is in town.)








                  --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bob:
                  >
                  > Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too.
                  >
                  > Glenn
                  >
                  > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                  > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                  >
                  > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                  >
                  > http://sfopc.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: bsuden@...
                  > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
                  > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Glen,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you,
                  >
                  > Bob S.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Bob:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
                  >
                  > > Glenn
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                  >
                  > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > http://sfopc.org
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > > From: bsuden@
                  >
                  > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
                  >
                  > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Hello Glen and Brian,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > the moment.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Worship tells us that:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > people, or
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > </i>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Thank you.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > cordially yrs.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Bob S.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > figured out.)
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Bob:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > such.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Glenn
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Francisco.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > SF.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > http://sfopc.org
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > From: ebrianhanley@
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > repent!
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Hi Bob,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > reform - but acted. While we are part of
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > petition is one way to have a voice.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > In Christ,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Brian
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > repent!
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Brian,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > the
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > where we are at now?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > thanks,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                • Glenn Ferrell
                  Bob: I entirely agree Christians need to avoid any semblance of endorsement or participation in the American National Religion, publicly or privately; as well
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 22 10:22 AM
                    Bob:

                    I entirely agree Christians need to avoid any semblance of endorsement or participation in the American National Religion, publicly or privately; as well as avoid public and private worship acknowledging man made feast days.

                    However, there is a difference in acknowledging or taking advantage of a cultural or seasonal celebration in one's home for the enjoyment of rest, food, family, hospitality, and prayer to the glory of God, as a believer should do on any providential opportunity. 

                    I'm happy this is a peaceful day, with families getting together, showing hospitality toward those without family nearby, remembering and thanking God for the blessings of the past year, taking advantage of time off from work or school, enjoying the bounty of the fall harvest.

                    None of that necessitates a Christian's endorsement of a blasphemous proclamation of a God defying government asking people to acknowledge a generic god, an idolatrous national cult, or any worship not appropriate to to believers on any day of the week. And, thankfully, Thanksgiving Day never falls on the Lord's Day, as the 25th of December periodically does.

                    Glenn

                    J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                    Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                    http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopc


                    To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                    From: bsuden@...
                    Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:16:40 +0000
                    Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!

                     
                    Glen,

                    Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American church just because it's American and it's that time of year.

                    If the civil magistrate is in gross, habitual and continued disobedience to God and calls for a day of thanksgiving, the church ought not to go along with it, publicly or FTM privately.

                    After all, do we forbear to observe Christmas in public worship, but observe it at home privately? Isn't that what one, is called hypocrisy and two, leads to the reintroduction of the feastday into public worship sooner or later?

                    Bob

                    (You need to take Chris W. to Memphis Minnie's next time he is in town.)

                    --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Bob:
                    >
                    > Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too.
                    >
                    > Glenn
                    >
                    > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                    > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                    >
                    > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                    >
                    > http://sfopc.org
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: bsuden@...
                    > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
                    > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Glen,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you,
                    >
                    > Bob S.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Bob:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
                    >
                    > > Glenn
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                    >
                    > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > http://sfopc.org
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > From: bsuden@
                    >
                    > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
                    >
                    > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Hello Glen and Brian,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > the moment.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Worship tells us that:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > people, or
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > </i>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Thank you.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > cordially yrs.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Bob S.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > figured out.)
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Bob:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > such.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Glenn
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Francisco.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > SF.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > http://sfopc.org
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > From: ebrianhanley@
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > repent!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Hi Bob,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > reform - but acted. While we are part of
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > petition is one way to have a voice.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > In Christ,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Brian
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > repent!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Brian,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > the
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > where we are at now?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > thanks,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >


                  • bob_suden
                    Glen, IOW the opening line to the West.Directory on Days of Prayer has nothing to say to us today? While I am more inclined to go with the 1788 WCF revisions
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 24 1:08 PM
                      Glen,

                      IOW the opening line to the West.Directory on Days of Prayer has nothing to say to us today?

                      While I am more inclined to go with the 1788 WCF revisions and the 2K view of things, I don't think that gets the church off the hook as we watch, what looks like a slow moving political, economical and moral train wreck.

                      thanks,
                      Bob S.


                      --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Bob:
                      >
                      > I entirely agree Christians need to avoid any semblance of endorsement or participation in the American National Religion, publicly or privately; as well as avoid public and private worship acknowledging man made feast days.
                      >
                      > However, there is a difference in acknowledging or taking advantage of a cultural or seasonal celebration in one's home for the enjoyment of rest, food, family, hospitality, and prayer to the glory of God, as a believer should do on any providential opportunity.
                      >
                      > I'm happy this is a peaceful day, with families getting together, showing hospitality toward those without family nearby, remembering and thanking God for the blessings of the past year, taking advantage of time off from work or school, enjoying the bounty of the fall harvest.
                      >
                      > None of that necessitates a Christian's endorsement of a blasphemous proclamation of a God defying government asking people to acknowledge a generic god, an idolatrous national cult, or any worship not appropriate to to believers on any day of the week. And, thankfully, Thanksgiving Day never falls on the Lord's Day, as the 25th of December periodically does.
                      > Glenn
                      >
                      > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                      > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                      >
                      > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                      >
                      > http://sfopc.org
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: bsuden@...
                      > Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:16:40 +0000
                      > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Glen,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Well, yeah, in that public worship is the tip of the iceberg of the mentality that God can and will bless America either as a nation or the American church just because it's American and it's that time of year.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If the civil magistrate is in gross, habitual and continued disobedience to God and calls for a day of thanksgiving, the church ought not to go along with it, publicly or FTM privately.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > After all, do we forbear to observe Christmas in public worship, but observe it at home privately? Isn't that what one, is called hypocrisy and two, leads to the reintroduction of the feastday into public worship sooner or later?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Bob
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > (You need to take Chris W. to Memphis Minnie's next time he is in town.)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Bob:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Is it public worship on Thanksgiving to which you object?. If so, I do too.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Glenn
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                      >
                      > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > http://sfopc.org
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > From: bsuden@
                      >
                      > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:29:30 +0000
                      >
                      > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
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                      > >
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                      > >
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                      > >
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                      > >
                      >
                      > > Glen,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I'm sorry, I didn't make myself perfectly clear.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > In our national circumstances - political, economic, moral - the church of Jesus Christ has no business whatsoever observing a national day of thanksgiving. Rather it is a farce, if not worse before God.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > And if the church isn't going to have a day of prayer instead like she ought to, she could at least ignore it.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > IOW if the foundations are being destroyed, the righteous can do more than acquiesce in the same (cf. Ps.11:3)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Thank you,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Bob S.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Bob:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Certainly, the nation takes God's name in vain in calling for a day of thanksgiving to an unknown generic god; as it does when it places "In God We Trust" on its coins and calls this "One Nation Under God.' The church needs to stand firmly against national religion, and call nation and people to acknowledgement of the true and living God, and the obligation of covenant with Him through His Son. Actually, this seems what the petition in question does in part.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > However, Thanksgiving Day is among the least offensive of our national holidays. Yes, the civil proclamations are a sham. But, it does not necessarily involve bringing a man made festival into public worship, or the church endorsing their pretense. Are we to object to a couple days off from work, time with family and friends, enjoyment of good food, opportunity to be reminded to be thankful for an abundance of God's blessings to our families, and the closest thing we have in America to a national day of rest? I enjoy Thanksgiving Day for the minimal commercial activity, unnecessary travel, and usual frenzy of life. Indeed, I am thankful for it.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Recognizing it is not really a national day of thanksgiving to the living God; one does not sin in enjoying the time, as one might the fourth of July, fireworks and ice cream.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Lets call the church to fasting and repentance, to purging itself of the vestiges of man made festivals, to purity of worship, to bold proclamation of the gospel of grace. Recognize the limits of this weeks national day of thanksgiving, and of our petitions to civil magistrates to recognize their covenant obligations. Certainly, there will be no genuine national repentance nor thanksgiving until the church of Jesus Christ is broken, humbled, repentant and reformed. But, faithful individuals and churches can express their thanksgiving to God, and their desire and prayer that the civil magistrate might restrain and punish evil, and praise that which is good, to the glory of God and advancement of His kingdom.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Glenn
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San Francisco.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street, SF.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > http://sfopc.org
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > From: bsuden@
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:06:07 +0000
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to repent!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
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                      > >
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                      > > >
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                      > > >
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                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Hello Glen and Brian,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Again, while I have nothing against signing a petition per se, if 1
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Pet. 4:17 is the bottom line, imo our focus should be on the church at
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > the moment.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Particularly when the modern P&R church, whether as sheep, turkeys or
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > lemmings, without questioning at all, dutifully obeys the civil
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > magistrate's call for an automatic/by rote/knee jerk observance of a
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > National Day of Thanksgiving (To Whom For What?)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Not only did Geo. Gillespie reprobate the annual anniversary
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > celebrations of the Anglican feastdays in his Dispute Against English
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Popish Ceremonies, the Westminster Assembly's Directory for Public
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Worship tells us that:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > <i>when some great and notable judgments are either inflicted upon a
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > people, or
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > apparently imminent . . . publick solemn fasting (which is to continue
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > the whole day) is a duty that God expecteth from that nation or people.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > </i>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > It would seem to me then, if the Assembly is correct, that regardless if
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > one holds theocratic or 2k views, something else is called for from
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > the church of Christ than the typical 'eat, drink and be merry' attitude
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > normally associated with this coming Thursday.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Thank you.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > cordially yrs.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Bob S.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > (Didn't know this forum was still active. Took awhile to get my password
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > figured out.)
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > --- In r-f-w@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Bob:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > I agree repentance needs to come to the church; as that is where God's
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > judgment starts. We need to be salt and light; and repent of not being
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > such.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > But, the church, and Christians, may also pray for and call upon their
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > civil magistrates to repent. After all, we may suffer some of the
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > consequences for their rebellious and sinful acts contrary to God's law.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > This petition has value in reminding those who sign and the civil
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > magistrate also that God's purpose for them includes His glory and the
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > advancement of Christ's kingdom.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Glenn
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, First Orthodox Presbyterian Church of San
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Francisco.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Worship each Lord's Day (Sunday) at 11 AM & 5 PM; 1350 Lawton Street,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > SF.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=sfopchttp://itunes\
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > .apple.com/us/podcast/san-francisco-first-opc/id420188245
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > http://sfopc.org
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
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                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
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                      > > > >
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                      > >
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                      > > >
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                      > >
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                      > > > >
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                      > >
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                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > From: ebrianhanley@
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:38:02 -0800
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Subject: Re: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > repent!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
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                      > > > > Hi Bob,
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                      > > > > I see the family, church, and nation as different governments. Each
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                      > > > government is called to repentance in the scriptures and I don't think
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                      > > > there is a needful order. King Hezekiah did not wait for the church to
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                      > > > reform - but acted. While we are part of
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                      > > > > a heavenly kingdom we also have an earthy kingdom. Paul understood
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                      > > > that he had the right to use his earthly citizenship for good (Acts
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                      > > > 22:25ff). As citizen we have rights to be heard by our leaders and a
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                      > > > petition is one way to have a voice.
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                      > > > >
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                      > > > > In Christ,
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                      > > > > Brian
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                      > > > > From: bob_suden bsuden@
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                      > > > > To: r-f-w@yahoogroups.com
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                      > > > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:32 PM
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                      > > > > Subject: [r-f-w] Re: White House petition/Call for the nation to
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                      > > > repent!
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                      > > > > --- In mailto:r-f-w%40yahoogroups.com, "ebrianhanley" ebrianhanley@
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                      > > > wrote:
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                      > > > > >
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                      > > > > > I just started a petition on the White House petitions site, We the
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                      > > > > > People. Will you sign it? http://wh.gov/XQsi
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                      > > > > Brian,
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                      > > > > Theocracy or 2K notwithstanding, doesn't something like this start by
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                      > > > > calling the church to repentance first? Much more that it is because
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                      > > > the
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                      > > > > church has wrapped itself in the flag and uncritically acquiesced with
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                      > > > > the Natl. Day of Thanksgiving in the first place that has got us to
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                      > > > > where we are at now?
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                      > > > >
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                      > > > > thanks,
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