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Re: Lamb, Shepherd etc

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  • Tom Killingbeck
    Melda Gildor, Hantanye an hirin Mavar , nan laa lamb . Noali? [and is that the correct use of the partitive, as in some or any ?] Mana quettar faith en
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 1 12:29 PM
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      Melda Gildor,

      Hantanye an hirin "Mavar", nan laa "lamb". Noali? [and is that the
      correct use of the partitive, as in 'some' or 'any'?]

      Mana quettar 'faith'en ar 'mercy'n? Hirnen 'voronwe' ar 'estel',
      nan 'estel' naa 'hope', ar 'voronwe' naa 'faithfulness'? Yando, mana
      quettar 'baptism'en?

      Ata, hantanyel!

      Naamarie,
      Onoono
    • Gildor Inglorion
      tence Tom Killingbeck ... why dont look in Ardalambion s wordlist? ... unfortunately i cant help you with mercy ... for baptism you could use *essanne
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 2 6:21 AM
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        tence Tom Killingbeck

        > Hantanye an hirin "Mavar", nan laa "lamb". Noali?
        > [and is that the
        > correct use of the partitive, as in 'some' or
        > 'any'?]

        why dont look in Ardalambion's wordlist?

        > Mana quettar 'faith'en ar 'mercy'n? Hirnen 'voronwe'
        > ar 'estel',
        > nan 'estel' naa 'hope', ar 'voronwe' naa
        > 'faithfulness'? Yando, mana
        > quettar 'baptism'en?

        unfortunately i cant help you with 'mercy'...

        for 'baptism' you could use *essanne 'name-giving'

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      • Barbara Rohrer
        ... well, I can t find a word for lamb either. It looks as if you can t get around some word creation. Be creative :-) You might have to use a diminutive
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 2 7:36 AM
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          Gildor Inglorion schrieb:
          tence Tom Killingbeck
          
            
          Hantanye an hirin "Mavar", nan laa "lamb".  Noali?
          [and is that the 
          correct use of the partitive, as in 'some' or
          'any'?]
              
          why dont look in Ardalambion's wordlist?
          well, I can't find a word for lamb either. It looks as if you can't get around some word creation. Be creative :-) You might have to use a diminutive endinge like _máralle_ for the lamb. 'Mercy' you might have to compound from 'good will' -> maraníra ?

          Olorronya

        • Gildor Inglorion
          teithant Barbara Rohrer ... learn how to search :P if lamb isn t there, look for sheep ____________________________________________________________ Do You
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 2 8:39 AM
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            teithant Barbara Rohrer

            > well, I can't find a word for lamb either. It looks
            > as if you can't get
            > around some word creation. Be creative :-) You might

            learn how to search :P if 'lamb' isn't there, look
            for 'sheep'

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          • Barbara Rohrer
            Well, you obviously possess a wordlist different from the one in Ardalambion. For the entry there under sheep is simply: SHEEP ma ma (Unlike English
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 2 1:16 PM
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              Well, you obviously possess a wordlist different from the one in Ardalambion. For the entry there under sheep is simply:  ' SHEEP máma (Unlike English "sheep", this word probably has a distinct plural *mámar.) -WJ:395.' So if you have access to another one maybe you could tell me where to find it. ; -). Thanks

              Gildor Inglorion schrieb:
              teithant Barbara Rohrer
              
                
              well, I can't find a word for lamb either. It looks
              as if you can't get 
              around some word creation. Be creative :-) You might
                  
              learn how to search :P if  'lamb' isn't there, look
              for 'sheep'
                

            • Gildor Inglorion
              teithant Barbara Rohrer ... nope ... that s the entry i was referring to: sheep.. i dont understand where is the problem and why i should have another wordlist
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 2 1:44 PM
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                teithant Barbara Rohrer

                > Well, you obviously possess a wordlist different
                > from the one in
                > Ardalambion. For the entry there under sheep is

                nope

                > simply: ' SHEEP ma'ma
                > (Unlike English "sheep", this word probably has a
                > distinct plural
                > *ma'mar.) -WJ:395.' So if you have access to another
                > one maybe you could
                > tell me where to find it. ; -). Thanks

                that's the entry i was referring to: sheep.. i dont
                understand where is the problem and why i should have
                another wordlist since its already there

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              • Barbara Rohrer
                Gildor Inglorion schrieb ... we were looking for lamb and you told us to look at the wordlist. I suggested to use a diminutive for sheep _ma malle_. (the
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 3 1:03 AM
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                  Gildor Inglorion schrieb
                  that's the entry i was referring to: sheep.. i dont
                  understand where is the problem and why i should have
                  another wordlist since its already there
                  we were looking for 'lamb' and you told us to look at the wordlist. I suggested to use a diminutive for sheep _mámalle_. (the máralle was a stupid typo)
                  
                  to quote you:
                  learn how to search :P if  'lamb' isn't there, look
                  for 'sheep' -> I assumed that there would be an entry for lamb as well. I think we both found sheep without problem. That was not the question.  But thanks for your comments anyway.
                  
                  Olorronya
                  
                • Patrick H. Wynne
                  ... The Qenya Lexicon (QL) gives Q. _eule_ lamb from a root EWE of unspecified meaning. This same entry gives an untranslated form _eulitse_, which might be
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 3 5:21 AM
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                    Tom Killingbeck wrote:

                    > Hantanye an hirin "Mavar", nan laa "lamb". Noali?

                    The Qenya Lexicon (QL) gives Q. _eule_ 'lamb' from a root EWE of
                    unspecified meaning. This same entry gives an untranslated form
                    _eulitse_, which might be a diminutive, *'little lamb'.

                    _mavar_ is also from QL, and contains a form of what was then (c.
                    1915) the word for 'sheep', _moa_ (< _mawa_). Since _moa_ 'sheep' is
                    likely to have been supplanted in Tolkien's later writings by
                    _máma_ 'sheep' (from "Quendi and Eldar", c. 1959; XI:395), it is
                    possible that _mavar_ 'shepherd' also became obsolete. In the chapter
                    "Aldarion and Erendis" in _Unfinished Tales_, _Mámandil_ appears
                    (p. 209) as a pseudonym assumed by Hallacar when he wooed Ancalimë
                    in the guise of a shepherd. This name probably simply means
                    'shepherd', < _máma_ 'sheep' + _-ndil_ 'friend'.

                    > Mana quettar 'faith'en ar 'mercy'n? Hirnen 'voronwe' ar 'estel',
                    > nan 'estel' naa 'hope', ar 'voronwe' naa 'faithfulness'? Yando,
                    > mana quettar 'baptism'en?

                    The verb 'have mercy' is _órava_, appearing repeatedly in
                    Tolkien's Quenya translation of the Litany of Loreto:

                    _órava (o)messe_ 'have mercy on us'

                    The Quenya Litany, with an analysis of all the forms, appears in VT
                    44, pp. 11-20.

                    The best Q. equivalent for our 'faith' is _estel_ (both a Q. and S.
                    word). See the passage in _Morgoth's Ring_ (X:320) in which Finrod
                    and Andreth discuss the distinction between _amdir_ 'hope' (A Sind.
                    word whose full meaning is 'an expectation of good, which though
                    uncertain has some foundation in what is known') and _estel_ 'trust',
                    which is an inherent knowledge that "of all His [Eru's] designs the
                    issue must be for His Children's joy", a knowledge that abides even
                    without supporting evidence from experience.

                    There is, to my knowledge, no attested Q. word for 'baptism'.

                    -- Patrick H. Wynne
                  • Tom Killingbeck
                    Thank you all for your help. As to baptism , I really want something with a bit more meat to it than simply name-giving , which will do at a pinch.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 5 11:28 PM
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                      Thank you all for your help. As to 'baptism', I really want
                      something with a bit more meat to it than simply 'name-giving', which
                      will do at a pinch.
                      Namaarie,
                      Onoono
                    • amanibhavam
                      ... Aiya, this is interesting. I do not possess VT44. What is the roor of _órava_? And by what conception is the pronoun in locative? Thanks for the
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 6 11:41 AM
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                        --- "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > The verb 'have mercy' is _�rava_, appearing
                        > repeatedly in
                        > Tolkien's Quenya translation of the Litany of
                        > Loreto:
                        >
                        > _�rava (o)messe_ 'have mercy on us'
                        >
                        > The Quenya Litany, with an analysis of all the
                        > forms, appears in VT
                        > 44, pp. 11-20.

                        Aiya,

                        this is interesting. I do not possess VT44. What is
                        the roor of _�rava_? And by what conception is the
                        pronoun in locative?

                        Thanks for the clarification.

                        Shine on,

                        Thomas

                        =====
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                        szenderg a folyton k�sz�lő hal�l."
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                      • amanibhavam
                        ... It is nteresting that ewe means female sheep in English, right? Thomas Ferencz ... az úton nehéz napom pora száll; Thomas Ferencz lassú
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 6 11:44 AM
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                          --- "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote:
                          > Tom Killingbeck wrote:
                          >
                          > > Hantanye an hirin "Mavar", nan laa "lamb". Noali?
                          >
                          >
                          > The Qenya Lexicon (QL) gives Q. _eule_ 'lamb' from a
                          > root EWE of
                          > unspecified meaning. This same entry gives an
                          > untranslated form
                          > _eulitse_, which might be a diminutive, *'little
                          > lamb'.
                          >

                          It is nteresting that 'ewe' means female sheep in
                          English, right?

                          Thomas Ferencz

                          =====
                          ----- "Esti b�ke, t�ged k�sz�ntelek,
                          az �ton neh�z napom pora sz�ll;
                          Thomas Ferencz lass� sz�vemben ilyenkor l�gyan
                          szenderg a folyton k�sz�lő hal�l."
                          (Radn�ti M.)

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                        • Patrick H. Wynne
                          amanibhavam wrote, regarding Q. _órava (o)messe_ have mercy on ... In VT44 I theorize that the root of this form is DAB- give way, make room, permit, allow
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 6 2:06 PM
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                            amanibhavam wrote, regarding Q. _órava (o)messe_ 'have mercy on
                            us':

                            > this is interesting. I do not possess VT44. What is
                            > the roor of _órava_? And by what conception is the
                            > pronoun in locative?

                            In VT44 I theorize that the root of this form is DAB- 'give way, make
                            room, permit, allow' (V:353), with prefixion of _ó-_ 'together' (<
                            WÔ- 'together', V:399), i.e. _*wôdab-_ > _órav-_ (with
                            medial _*d_ > _r_ as usual in Q.) So the construction of this Q. word
                            appears to parallel that of Latin _compati_ 'to feel pity', < _com-_
                            'together' + _pati_ 'suffer, undergo; permit, allow'.

                            As for the use of the locative case in _(o)messe_ 'on us', the
                            locative is also translated as 'on, upon' (as opposed to 'in') in
                            such examples as _ondolisse morne_ 'on dark rocks' (MC:222) and
                            _mahalmassen_ 'upon the thrones' (in Cirion's Oath, UT:305). So its
                            use in _(o)messe_ should not be puzzling.

                            -- Patrick H. Wynne
                          • amanibhavam
                            ... Thank you! Do you think, then, that a word like *lávie could mean something like patience , and, similarly, *lávea patient ? Thomas Ferencz ... az
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 6 2:14 PM
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                              --- "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote:
                              > amanibhavam wrote, regarding Q. _�rava (o)messe_
                              > 'have mercy on
                              > us':
                              >
                              > > this is interesting. I do not possess VT44. What
                              > is
                              > > the roor of _�rava_? And by what conception is the
                              > > pronoun in locative?
                              >
                              > In VT44 I theorize that the root of this form is
                              > DAB- 'give way, make
                              > room, permit, allow' (V:353), with prefixion of _�-_
                              > 'together' (<
                              > W�- 'together', V:399), i.e. _*w�dab-_ > _�rav-_
                              > (with
                              > medial _*d_ > _r_ as usual in Q.) So the
                              > construction of this Q. word
                              > appears to parallel that of Latin _compati_ 'to feel
                              > pity', < _com-_
                              > 'together' + _pati_ 'suffer, undergo; permit,
                              > allow'.

                              Thank you! Do you think, then, that a word like *l�vie
                              could mean something like "patience", and, similarly,
                              *l�vea "patient"?

                              Thomas Ferencz

                              =====
                              ----- "Esti b�ke, t�ged k�sz�ntelek,
                              az �ton neh�z napom pora sz�ll;
                              Thomas Ferencz lass� sz�vemben ilyenkor l�gyan
                              szenderg a folyton k�sz�lő hal�l."
                              (Radn�ti M.)

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                            • Patrick H. Wynne
                              ... Indeed it does -- though in English, ewe is pronounced like the 2nd person pronoun you (a dialectal pronunciation [yô] also occurs). In QL, Tolkien
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 6 2:38 PM
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                                Thomas Ferencz wrote:

                                > --- "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@g...> wrote:
                                > > Tom Killingbeck wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Hantanye an hirin "Mavar", nan laa "lamb". Noali?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > The Qenya Lexicon (QL) gives Q. _eule_ 'lamb' from a
                                > > root EWE of
                                > > unspecified meaning. This same entry gives an
                                > > untranslated form
                                > > _eulitse_, which might be a diminutive, *'little
                                > > lamb'.
                                > >
                                >
                                > It is nteresting that 'ewe' means female sheep in
                                > English, right?

                                Indeed it does -- though in English, 'ewe' is pronounced like the 2nd
                                person pronoun 'you' (a dialectal pronunciation [yô] also occurs).
                                In QL, Tolkien perhaps meant to imply that the root EWE was the
                                ultimate source of Indo-European _*owi-_ 'sheep', whence Latin _ovis_
                                'sheep' and Eng. _ewe_ 'female sheep' (< Gmc. _*awi-). In
                                Indo-European, variation occurred between the vowels _e_ and _o_ in
                                roots ("ablaut"), for example the root _*ped-(1)_ 'foot' > Latin
                                _ped-_ but Greek _pod-_. So a root EWE in the hands of Indo-European
                                speakers might have become _*owe-_, > _*owi-_. This is utterly
                                hypothetical and ultimately unprovable, of course.

                                -- Patrick H. Wynne
                              • Gildor Inglorion
                                teithant Patrick H. Wynne ... thanks for this interesting information... i should mention maybe that this ablaut sometimes separates verb stems from noun
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 6 4:33 PM
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                                  teithant "Patrick H. Wynne"

                                  > _*awi-). In
                                  > Indo-European, variation occurred between the vowels
                                  > _e_ and _o_ in
                                  > roots ("ablaut"), for example the root _*ped-(1)_
                                  > 'foot' > Latin
                                  > _ped-_ but Greek _pod-_. So a root EWE in the hands
                                  > of Indo-European
                                  > speakers might have become _*owe-_, > _*owi-_. This

                                  thanks for this interesting information...
                                  i should mention maybe that this ablaut sometimes
                                  separates verb stems from noun stems in greek

                                  eg. trefo 'i nurish' vs trofe 'food
                                  strefo 'i turn' vs strofe 'turn'
                                  repo 'i am inclined to' vs rope 'inclination'
                                  perdomai 'i fart' vs porde 'fart' (couldnt help with
                                  not mentioning this one :PPPP)

                                  any connection with english brood/breed, food/feed, moot/meet?

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                                • DiegoSeguí
                                  ... of _órava_? And by what conception is the pronoun in locative? ... way, make room, permit, allow (V:353), with prefixion of _ó-_ together (
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 6 7:09 PM
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                                    --- "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote:

                                    > amanibhavam wrote, regarding Q. _�rava (o)messe_ 'have mercy
                                    on us':
                                    >
                                    > > this is interesting. I do not possess VT44. What is the roor
                                    of _�rava_? And by what conception is the pronoun in locative?
                                    >
                                    > In VT44 I theorize that the root of this form is DAB- 'give
                                    way, make room, permit, allow' (V:353), with prefixion of _�-_
                                    'together' (< W�- 'together', V:399), i.e. _*w�dab-_ > _�rav-_
                                    (with medial _*d_ > _r_ as usual in Q.) So the construction of
                                    this Q. word appears to parallel that of Latin _compati_ 'to
                                    feel pity', < _com-_ 'together' + _pati_ 'suffer, undergo;
                                    permit, allow'.

                                    As regards this paralelism, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that
                                    'permit, allow' as a dynamic meaning of the root of _pati_ was
                                    an extension of the basic meaning of 'suffer, undergo' (i.e. a
                                    purely 'passive' sense); and that it is this basic meaning that
                                    is still present in _compati_ (or Gr. _sympaskhein_): 'to suffer
                                    with one; to have compassion, to feel pity', without the 'allow'
                                    addition; whereas DAB in Etym. seems dynamic through and
                                    through, without a hint of the 'passive' sense.

                                    So, if DAB was incorporated, wouldn't _�rava_ mean rather "to
                                    allow with", whatever that might be? Not that I have a better
                                    suggestion for the etymology of _�rava_ (neither do I have VT44,
                                    so I've probably missed something, and all this is nonsense :D).

                                    Surely you are right that Tolkien used some kind of paralelism
                                    with _compati_ (although neither English, Latin nor Greek use
                                    similar constructions in their respective wordings of the
                                    prayer), but I still cannot see the relation with DAB. Or is it
                                    attested with the 'suffer, undergo' meaning?

                                    Diego Segui

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                                  • Angela Andrews
                                    Though the word baptism means to immerse in water, to Baptist Christians it is the public ceremony of joining a local church by identifying with the death,
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 7 12:01 PM
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                                      Though the word 'baptism' means to immerse in water, to Baptist
                                      Christians it is the public ceremony of joining a local church by
                                      identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
                                      So perhaps looking for a quenya word that means initiation, membership,
                                      belonging to, joining, etc, would serve your purposes?

                                      Ainuriel

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Tom Killingbeck [mailto:tntkillingbeck@...]
                                      Sent: April 6, 2003 3:28 AM
                                      To: quenya@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [quenya] Re: Lamb, Shepherd etc


                                      Thank you all for your help. As to 'baptism', I really want
                                      something with a bit more meat to it than simply 'name-giving', which
                                      will do at a pinch.
                                      Namaarie,
                                      Onoono



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                                    • Gildor Inglorion
                                      teithant Angela Andrews ... of course... the root of the Quenya name for Christ Elpino might do, also we have words for ointment etc
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 7 2:07 PM
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                                        teithant Angela Andrews

                                        > Though the word 'baptism' means to immerse in water,
                                        > to Baptist
                                        > Christians it is the public ceremony of joining a
                                        > local church by
                                        > identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection
                                        > of Jesus Christ.
                                        > So perhaps looking for a quenya word that means
                                        > initiation, membership,
                                        > belonging to, joining, etc, would serve your
                                        > purposes?

                                        of course... the root of the Quenya name for Christ
                                        Elpino might do, also we have words for 'ointment' etc

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                                      • Tom Killingbeck
                                        Melda ilye, Hantanyel i quettaron. [It has been very helpful!] Laitali len, Onoono
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 7 11:12 PM
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                                          Melda ilye,
                                          Hantanyel i quettaron. [It has been very helpful!]
                                          Laitali len,
                                          Onoono
                                        • Patrick H. Wynne
                                          Diego Seguí wrote, regarding my proposed parallel between ... Here s how I see it -- The root DAB- means give way, make room, permit, allow . And if someone
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 8 5:57 AM
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                                            Diego Seguí wrote, regarding my proposed parallel between
                                            Q. _órava_ 'have mercy' and Lat. _compati_ 'feel pity':

                                            > As regards this paralelism, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that
                                            > 'permit, allow' as a dynamic meaning of the root of _pati_ was
                                            > an extension of the basic meaning of 'suffer, undergo' (i.e. a
                                            > purely 'passive' sense); and that it is this basic meaning that
                                            > is still present in _compati_ (or Gr. _sympaskhein_): 'to suffer
                                            > with one; to have compassion, to feel pity', without the 'allow'
                                            > addition; whereas DAB in Etym. seems dynamic through and
                                            > through, without a hint of the 'passive' sense.
                                            >
                                            > So, if DAB was incorporated, wouldn't _órava_ mean rather "to
                                            > allow with", whatever that might be? Not that I have a better
                                            > suggestion for the etymology of _órava_ (neither do I have VT44,
                                            > so I've probably missed something, and all this is nonsense :D).

                                            Here's how I see it -- The root DAB- means 'give way, make room,
                                            permit, allow'. And if someone 'gives way', that person is 'being
                                            yielding'; if someone 'permits', that person is 'being permissive';
                                            and if someone 'allows', that person is 'making allowances'. So
                                            the root DAB-, if it is the source of _-rav-_ in _órava_, could be
                                            used in this word in the sense 'to be yielding or permissive, to
                                            make allowances'. With the addition of the prefix _ó-_, the
                                            form _órava_ might literally be 'to be permissive with, to make
                                            allowances with', hence 'have mercy' (which in the context of
                                            the Litany is a plea for God's indulgence).

                                            So the etymological parallel with Lat. _compati_ is more evocative
                                            than precise. And yes, there is a great deal of further evidence
                                            of a parallel with _compati_, based on an earlier form that
                                            preceded _órava_, one based on an entirely different root. But
                                            the issue is too involved to summarize here, and I would urge
                                            those interested to get a copy of VT 44.

                                            -- Patrick H. Wynne
                                          • DiegoSeguí
                                            ... room, permit, allow . And if someone gives way , that person is being yielding ; if someone permits , that person is being permissive ; and if someone
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 8 9:09 PM
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                                              --- "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote:

                                              > Here's how I see it -- The root DAB- means 'give way, make
                                              room, permit, allow'. And if someone 'gives way', that person is
                                              'being yielding'; if someone 'permits', that person is 'being
                                              permissive'; and if someone 'allows', that person is 'making
                                              allowances'. So the root DAB-, if it is the source of _-rav-_ in
                                              _�rava_, could be used in this word in the sense 'to be yielding
                                              or permissive, to make allowances'. With the addition of the
                                              prefix _�-_, the form _�rava_ might literally be 'to be
                                              permissive with, to make allowances with', hence 'have mercy'
                                              (which in the context of the Litany is a plea for God's
                                              indulgence).
                                              >
                                              > So the etymological parallel with Lat. _compati_ is more
                                              evocative than precise. And yes, there is a great deal of
                                              further evidence of a parallel with _compati_, based on an
                                              earlier form that preceded _�rava_, one based on an entirely
                                              different root.

                                              Well, thanks a lot; now I see your meaning clearer.

                                              However, still I cannot see what the _�_ prefix would add to the
                                              root meaning, since its function would cease to parallel the
                                              _com_ in _compati_ (which, as far as I can grasp it, means that
                                              both the object and the subject perform the same action, that
                                              is, _pati_; the same for Q _o/�_, at least in examples that I
                                              can think of, like _omentie_ or _�sanwe_, where the idea of some
                                              kind of 'togetherness' is always present): it cannot be said
                                              that the 'us' of the prayer is in any way 'yielding, making
                                              allowances, etc.' (and the 'with' in 'to be permissive with, to
                                              make allowances with' stands for something different, more
                                              similar to introducing a kind of object, doesn't it?).

                                              > But the issue is too involved to summarize here, and I would
                                              urge those interested to get a copy of VT 44.

                                              You're right, I should. Thanks again.

                                              Diego Segui


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