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Re: [quenya] Quenta hiinain

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  • Ales Bican
    ... ** Golden-? and Silver-tree ? - I do not know what you mean. ... ** [There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel - Use _ea_ rather copula _naa_; there
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 4, 2000
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      Shihali Ramichu wrote:

      > I wrote a simple children's story in Quenya, and I'd like to have your
      > opinion of it.
      >
      > Lauraarel ar Telpaldon

      **"Golden-? and Silver-tree"? - I do not know what you mean.

      >
      > Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.

      **"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
      copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".

      > Naa Lauraarellen meldo estana Telpegaldon.

      **[There] is for/to Lauraarellen friend named Telpegaldon" - Rather
      _ea_; I would use the possessive _Lauraarelwa_ "of Lauraarel,
      Lauraaral's"; By _Telpegaldon_ you mean an older form of _Telpaldon_?

      > Lauraarel esta son Telpaldon.

      **"Lauraarel names to/for him Telpaldon" - I would use the accusative
      _esta so_ rather than the dative.

      > Telpegaldon esta sen Lauraasel.

      **"Telpagaldon names for/to her Lauraasel" - same problems as above;
      _Lauraasel_ as an ancestor of _Lauraarel_?

      > Tyalinte coronnen.

      **"They play with/by a ball" - I would say _yo coron_.

      > Lauraarel hata i coron ar Telpegaldon mapa ta.

      **"Lauraarel throws the ball and Telpegaldon grasps it" - _haata_ resp.
      _maapa_ or aorist _hate_ resp. _mape_.

      > Sin Telpegaldon hata ar Lauraarel mapa.

      **"Now Telpegaldon throws and Lauraarel grasps" - same problems as
      above.

      > Anduunesse yuuyo entuler maarenna.

      **"In [the] evening both re-come/return to home" - either aorist
      _entulir_ or normal present _entuular_.

      >
      > Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.

      **"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
      craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
      in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
      valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
      personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
      wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.

      > Caruvaare vanye cormar ar miirie firingar.

      **"She will made fair rings and jeweled necklaces"

      > Iire Telpegaldon nuva veaner, meriro na ciryamo.

      **"When Telpegaldon will be[come] adult-man, he wants to be a mariner"
      - as above.

      > Lelyuvaaro Alqualondello Umbarenna. Lauraarel ar Telpegaldon vestuvar.

      **"He will go from Alqualonde to Umbar. Lauraarel and Telpegaldon
      will wed."


      Alda

      --
      **I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)
    • Shihali Ramichu
      ... Lauraarel is supposed to mean maiden of golden sunshine (laure-aare-el(le)), and Telpegaldon is supposed to mean silver tree . The name is Telerin. ...
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 4, 2000
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        Ales Bican wrote:

        > **"Golden-? and Silver-tree"? - I do not know what you mean.
        >
        >

        Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
        (laure-aare-el(le)), and Telpegaldon is supposed to mean "silver tree". The
        name is Telerin.

        > > Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.
        >
        > **"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
        > copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".
        >
        >

        Thanks. I missed _finda_. As for _ea_, that sounds good but _naa_ seems
        safer.

        > > Naa Lauraarellen meldo estana Telpegaldon.
        >
        > **[There] is for/to Lauraarellen friend named Telpegaldon" - Rather
        > _ea_; I would use the possessive _Lauraarelwa_ "of Lauraarel,
        > Lauraaral's"; By _Telpegaldon_ you mean an older form of _Telpaldon_?
        >

        Since "no Elf would speak of possessing children...." (Morgoth's Ring, pg.
        228) I doubt that they would "possess" friends either.

        >
        > > Lauraarel esta son Telpaldon.
        >
        > **"Lauraarel names to/for him Telpaldon" - I would use the accusative
        > _esta so_ rather than the dative.
        >

        I used the Spanish construction, which as I understand it uses the dative.
        Two direct objects don't seem right.

        >
        > > Telpegaldon esta sen Lauraasel.
        >
        > **"Telpagaldon names for/to her Lauraasel" - same problems as above;
        > _Lauraasel_ as an ancestor of _Lauraarel_?
        >

        The same explanation. _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
        Telerin.

        >
        > > Tyalinte coronnen.
        >
        > **"They play with/by a ball" - I would say _yo coron_.
        >

        I think the instrumental _coronnen_ conveys the idea that they play "by means
        of" the ball, while _yo coron_ would imply that they play some game along
        with a living ball.

        >
        > > Lauraarel hata i coron ar Telpegaldon mapa ta.
        >
        > **"Lauraarel throws the ball and Telpegaldon grasps it" - _haata_ resp.
        > _maapa_ or aorist _hate_ resp. _mape_.
        >

        I messed up my tenses there. I meant _hate_ and _mape_.

        >
        > > Sin Telpegaldon hata ar Lauraarel mapa.
        >
        > **"Now Telpegaldon throws and Lauraarel grasps" - same problems as
        > above.
        >

        Again, _hate_ and _mape_.

        >
        > > Anduunesse yuuyo entuler maarenna.
        >
        > **"In [the] evening both re-come/return to home" - either aorist
        > _entulir_ or normal present _entuular_.
        >
        >

        Yet another messup with the aorist. I meant _entulir_.

        > >
        > > Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.
        >
        > **"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
        > craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
        > in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
        > valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
        > personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
        > wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.
        >

        _Nuva_ is doubtful, but Quenya uses the future in a construction like that
        and _yeeva_ is pretty clearly obsolete. You're also right about the extreme
        dubiousness of _na_.

        >
        > > Caruvaare vanye cormar ar miirie firingar.
        >
        > **"She will made fair rings and jeweled necklaces"
        >
        > > Iire Telpegaldon nuva veaner, meriro na ciryamo.
        >
        > **"When Telpegaldon will be[come] adult-man, he wants to be a mariner"
        > - as above.
        >
        > > Lelyuvaaro Alqualondello Umbarenna. Lauraarel ar Telpegaldon vestuvar.
        >
        > **"He will go from Alqualonde to Umbar. Lauraarel and Telpegaldon
        > will wed."
        >
        > Alda

        Thank you for the help. Feel free to criticize my emendations.

        Melde
      • Ales Bican
        ... **I had guessed _laure_ and _aare_. And if the last part (_el_) has something to do with elf s maiden, then I would say _-el_, _-elde_. ... **_Telpe_ is
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 5, 2000
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          Shihali Ramichu wrote:

          > Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
          > (laure-aare-el(le))

          **I had guessed _laure_ and _aare_. And if the last part
          (_el_) has something to do with elf's maiden, then I would
          say _-el_, _-elde_.

          > , and Telpegaldon is supposed to mean "silver tree". The
          > name is Telerin.

          **_Telpe_ is syncoped form of _telepe_, that's ok, but T
          word for "tree" is _galla_. Tolkien first thought about _galda_,
          but immediately he changed it.
          If the masculine ending _-on_ is employed in T, I don't know,
          but surely _-o_ is.

          > > > Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.
          > >
          > > **"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
          > > copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".
          > >
          > >
          >
          > Thanks. I missed _finda_. As for _ea_, that sounds good but _naa_ seems
          > safer.

          **Hm, safer? _Ea_ seems to mean "exist, be", so "there is, there exist",
          while _naa_ seems to mean "it is".
          _Anar ea_ "the sun exists / there is the sun"
          _Anar naa laurea_ "the sun is golden"
          This is the way I would use these two words.

          > The same explanation. _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
          > Telerin.

          **Since _aara_ is derived from the stem AR, I see no reason why T
          form should be _aasa_.

          > > >
          > > > Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.
          > >
          > > **"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
          > > craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
          > > in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
          > > valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
          > > personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
          > > wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.
          > >
          >
          > _Nuva_ is doubtful, but Quenya uses the future in a construction like that

          **But _naa_ is not as others. It may behave otherwise. But use what
          you want. It always is a dilemma whether use purely our constructed
          and unattested form or Tolkien's genuine but likely invalid one. I
          incline to the second way as long as I do not have anything better.

          > and _yeeva_ is pretty clearly obsolete.

          **We do not know, we must wait (how long?), it may still happen
          that forms of _ye_ are variants.
          I don't think it should be clearly obsolete. It simply doesn't
          occur in a later published manuscript as well as e.g. _firinga_
          you used, but we do not have another better word.
          Don't be afraid I don't want to discourage you wholly, I would just
          simply use an attested word.
          There could be a couple of possibilities. It could be your _nuva_
          - the future affix remove the present affix. Or _nuuva_ - when
          _yeeva_ contains long vowel and _naa_ as well. Or _naava_ - _u_
          of _-uva_ is simply omitted. Or _nauva_ - one of a's of _naa_ is
          replaced and the future suffix added. Or it could be something else.


          Last time I forget:
          Pl. of _hiina_ is _hiini_ according to WJ not _hiinar_, so
          dat. pl. should be _[quenta] hiinin_.

          "To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
          And I would like to ask whether it was a pun: _lelyuvaaro
          Alqualondello Umbar[t]enna_ "he will go from A. to Umbar"
          and also "he will go from A. towards [his] doom". Well, I hope
          that the life of the mariner and the craftswoman will/did not
          end as of Aldarion and Erendis...


          Alda / Galla / Galadh

          --
          **I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)
        • Shihali Ramichu
          ... Galadriel s Telerin name Alataariel(le) is supposed to mean maiden crowned with a radiant garland. I was trying to emphasize the idea of maiden
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 6, 2000
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            Ales Bican wrote:

            > > Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
            > > (laure-aare-el(le))
            >
            > **I had guessed _laure_ and _aare_. And if the last part
            > (_el_) has something to do with elf's maiden, then I would
            > say _-el_, _-elde_.
            >

            Galadriel's Telerin name Alataariel(le) is supposed to mean "maiden crowned with
            a radiant garland." I was trying to emphasize the idea of "maiden" instead of
            "elf".

            >
            > > , and Telpegaldon is supposed to mean "silver tree". The
            > > name is Telerin.
            >
            > **_Telpe_ is syncoped form of _telepe_, that's ok, but T
            > word for "tree" is _galla_. Tolkien first thought about _galda_,
            > but immediately he changed it.
            > If the masculine ending _-on_ is employed in T, I don't know,
            > but surely _-o_ is.
            >

            Correct on both counts. Even if "tree" is _galada_, when contracted it would
            become _galla_.

            >
            > > > > Naa laurefindea hiina estana Lauraarel.
            > > >
            > > > **"[There] is golden-haired child named Lauraarel" - Use _ea_ rather
            > > > copula _naa_; there is a word _finda_ "haired".
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > Thanks. I missed _finda_. As for _ea_, that sounds good but _naa_ seems
            > > safer.
            >
            > **Hm, safer? _Ea_ seems to mean "exist, be", so "there is, there exist",
            > while _naa_ seems to mean "it is".
            > _Anar ea_ "the sun exists / there is the sun"
            > _Anar naa laurea_ "the sun is golden"
            > This is the way I would use these two words.
            >

            I take _ea_ to mean "exist" in a very permanent sense--existing _eternally_, so
            I'm hesitant to use it.

            >
            > > The same explanation. _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
            > > Telerin.
            >
            > **Since _aara_ is derived from the stem AR, I see no reason why T
            > form should be _aasa_.
            >

            Yes, but in LoTR the name of the 30th tengwa is _aaze_ "sunlight", which became
            _aare_ in NQ. So _aare_ must have come from PQ _aasee_ or something similar,
            unless there was a general r>z change in Vanyarin we don't know about.

            >
            > > > >
            > > > > Iire Lauraarel nuva veanis, merire na tane.
            > > >
            > > > **"When Lauraarel will be[come] adult-woman, she wants to be a
            > > > craftswoman" - we do not know how the future tense of "be" looks like
            > > > in mature Q, so it's douptful. Someone uses attested (but likely not
            > > > valid) _yeeva_; and we also do not know the infinitive of "be" - I
            > > > personally in such cases omit it and I would write _merire tane_ "she
            > > > wants [to be] craftswoman" or maybe _merire naa tane_.
            > > >
            > >
            > > _Nuva_ is doubtful, but Quenya uses the future in a construction like that
            >
            > **But _naa_ is not as others. It may behave otherwise. But use what
            > you want. It always is a dilemma whether use purely our constructed
            > and unattested form or Tolkien's genuine but likely invalid one. I
            > incline to the second way as long as I do not have anything better.
            >
            > > and _yeeva_ is pretty clearly obsolete.
            >
            > **We do not know, we must wait (how long?), it may still happen
            > that forms of _ye_ are variants.
            > I don't think it should be clearly obsolete. It simply doesn't
            > occur in a later published manuscript as well as e.g. _firinga_
            > you used, but we do not have another better word.
            > Don't be afraid I don't want to discourage you wholly, I would just
            > simply use an attested word.
            > There could be a couple of possibilities. It could be your _nuva_
            > - the future affix remove the present affix. Or _nuuva_ - when
            > _yeeva_ contains long vowel and _naa_ as well. Or _naava_ - _u_
            > of _-uva_ is simply omitted. Or _nauva_ - one of a's of _naa_ is
            > replaced and the future suffix added. Or it could be something else.
            >

            *Ye was displaced in favor of _naa_ in Namaarie. This could be a variant, but
            three words for "to be", with two of them having the same meaning? It's
            possible, but it doesn't seem likely.

            >
            > Last time I forget:
            > Pl. of _hiina_ is _hiini_ according to WJ not _hiinar_, so
            > dat. pl. should be _[quenta] hiinin_.
            >

            Also right. I forgot that.

            >
            > "To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
            >

            Where'd you get the _t_? I've never seen "Umbar" (the city) with the extra _t_
            in endings.

            > And I would like to ask whether it was a pun: _lelyuvaaro
            > Alqualondello Umbar[t]enna_ "he will go from A. to Umbar"
            > and also "he will go from A. towards [his] doom". Well, I hope
            > that the life of the mariner and the craftswoman will/did not
            > end as of Aldarion and Erendis...
            >

            Well, no, Umbar was just the most distant port from Alqualonde I could think
            of. Without the _t_, the joke doesn't exist.

            Melde
          • Ales Bican
            ... **You re right. ... **Well, that s my mistake, sorry. According to Etym, _aare_ was derived from the stem AR, but there are some evidences that Tolkien
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 7, 2000
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              Shihali Ramichu wrote:

              > > > Lauraarel is supposed to mean "maiden of golden sunshine"
              > > > (laure-aare-el(le))
              > >
              > > **I had guessed _laure_ and _aare_. And if the last part
              > > (_el_) has something to do with elf's maiden, then I would
              > > say _-el_, _-elde_.
              > >
              >
              > Galadriel's Telerin name Alataariel(le) is supposed to mean "maiden crowned with
              > a radiant garland." I was trying to emphasize the idea of "maiden" instead of
              > "elf".

              **You're right.

              > > > The same explanation. _Lauraasel_ is how I think her name would appear in
              > > > Telerin.
              > >
              > > **Since _aara_ is derived from the stem AR, I see no reason why T
              > > form should be _aasa_.
              > >
              >
              > Yes, but in LoTR the name of the 30th tengwa is _aaze_ "sunlight", which became
              > _aare_ in NQ. So _aare_ must have come from PQ _aasee_ or something similar,
              > unless there was a general r>z change in Vanyarin we don't know about.

              **Well, that's my mistake, sorry. According to Etym, _aare_ was derived
              from the stem AR, but there are some evidences that Tolkien later
              decided for the stem AS. _Aare_ then arose by common change from
              PQ _aasee_. It became _aaze_ in Q of Valinor and remained in Vanyarin
              Q, but in Noldorin Q it became _aare_.
              But still I think the T form would be _aare_, for it seems that the mentioned
              change was employed in T as well. We have _cavaria_ "house of him",
              evidently containg 3rd person possessive ending _-ria_. Its Q cognate
              is _-rya_. This ending is retated to 3rd person endings _-re_ (_-rye_?)
              and _-ro_ (_-ryo_?) derived from the stem S-, see LR:385.

              > > "To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
              > >
              >
              > Where'd you get the _t_? I've never seen "Umbar" (the city) with the extra _t_
              > in endings.

              **We do not know what _Umbar_ should have meant, but it looks
              exactly like non-capitalized _umbar_, thus *I* would write it as
              _Umbart-_. But if you do not want it like this, it is up to you. Until
              we have Tolkien's solution, we can't say what is right and what's not
              for sure.


              Alda

              --
              **I'm just the Messenger.. (Milla Jovovich as Joan of Arc)
            • Shihali Ramichu
              ... You re right. I forgot about those. ... You ve got a point. Even though _Umbar_ isn t a Quenya name, the -t would probably be attached because of the
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 7, 2000
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                Ales Bican wrote:

                > **Well, that's my mistake, sorry. According to Etym, _aare_ was derived
                > from the stem AR, but there are some evidences that Tolkien later
                > decided for the stem AS. _Aare_ then arose by common change from
                > PQ _aasee_. It became _aaze_ in Q of Valinor and remained in Vanyarin
                > Q, but in Noldorin Q it became _aare_.
                > But still I think the T form would be _aare_, for it seems that the mentioned
                > change was employed in T as well. We have _cavaria_ "house of him",
                > evidently containg 3rd person possessive ending _-ria_. Its Q cognate
                > is _-rya_. This ending is retated to 3rd person endings _-re_ (_-rye_?)
                > and _-ro_ (_-ryo_?) derived from the stem S-, see LR:385.

                You're right. I forgot about those.

                >
                >
                > > > "To Umbar" should be _Umbartenna_ rather than _Umbarenna_.
                > > >
                > >
                > > Where'd you get the _t_? I've never seen "Umbar" (the city) with the extra _t_
                > > in endings.
                >
                > **We do not know what _Umbar_ should have meant, but it looks
                > exactly like non-capitalized _umbar_, thus *I* would write it as
                > _Umbart-_. But if you do not want it like this, it is up to you. Until
                > we have Tolkien's solution, we can't say what is right and what's not
                > for sure.
                >

                You've got a point. Even though _Umbar_ isn't a Quenya name, the -t would probably be
                attached because of the resemblance. It *does* greatly increase the possibilities for
                punning.

                Melde
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