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Re: [quenya] Help, please !

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  • Gaius Caligula
    All present tense verbs take an accent (which isn t a true accent. It just means that the vowel is pronounced long) on the stem vowel, unless that vowel comes
    Message 1 of 8 , May 31, 2002
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      All present tense verbs take an accent (which isn't a true accent. It
      just means that the vowel is pronounced long) on the stem vowel, unless
      that vowel comes right before a consonant cluster. Like sil- is s�la
      and cen- is c�na, but lanta- has the present tense lanta, not l�nta.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: morfiwen <euphrasie69@...>
      Date: Friday, May 31, 2002 5:41 pm
      Subject: [quenya] Help, please !

      > <html><body>
      >
      >
      > <tt>
      > I've a big problem : For the present, I don't know what are the
      > verbs
      >
      > who take an accent ! I know for sil-, sila (with an accent on the
      > i)
      >
      > but I don't know for the other. Please, help me !I'm a beginner in
      >
      > Quenya, so I want help !
      >
      > Morfiwen
      >
      >
      >
      > </tt>
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Helge K. Fauskanger
      ... rule gets a teensy bit more complex. You affix -ea to the verb, and you lengthen (accent) the vowel, *unless* the vowel is followed by a consonant
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 2, 2002
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        Kai MacTane wrote:

        > When conjugating derived verbs (ones that end in -a, -ya, -ta or -na) the
        rule gets a teensy bit more complex. You affix -ea to the verb, and you
        lengthen (accent) the vowel, *unless* the vowel is followed by a "consonant
        cluster" (two or more consonants, including y).

        Carl F. Hostetter responded:

        > All of this is pure conjecture on Helge's part, based on a single,
        unglossed (by Tolkien) example (_órea_) of (as yet) uncertain status (even
        to me). It is misleading to present this as factual, and the "examples" you
        provide as anything other than unattested fabrications.

        (Ah, there is the F word again...one favorite of CFH's, along with
        "counterproductive", "dishonorable" and of course "copyright".) No, this
        info is in no way confirmed or certain, and I think I make that quite clear
        in the relevant section of my Quenya course.

        > mapa- > mápea ("are/is seizing")

        [CFH:] *Unattested.

        Unattested, yes. But then the nominative plural of (say) _norsa_ "a giant"
        is not attested either. However, if anyone were to assert that Tolkien
        didn't mean the plural form to be _norsar_, they should probably invest in
        a new Ouija board.

        If _ora-_ "to urge" appears as _órea_ in one particular tense, it seems to
        be a VERY fair assumption that _mapa-_ "to seize" would appear as _mápea_
        in the same tense. Of course, the suggestion that _órea_ represents a
        "present" or continative form comes from CFH himself. If he has discovered
        something new about this form that has made him doubt his own
        identification, we would all be glad to hear about it.

        As for forms like _cendea_ "is reading" from _cenda-_ "to read", it does
        represent an extrapolation based on our general understanding of Quenya
        phonology. Before a consonant cluster, the stem-vowel cannot be lengthened
        and would therefore remain short (attested parallels exist for the perfect
        tense). I do think that if _ora-_ appears as _órea_ in one tense, it is
        entirely plausible to assume that _cenda-_ would appear as _cendea_ in the
        same tense. The main question is what tense or form _órea_ really
        represents. I guess this could easily remain as conjectural as the precise
        meaning of Sindarin _aen_.

        CFH's colleague Bill Welden recently observed that regarding details of
        Quenya grammar, "answers will never be clear" and would often depend on the
        interpretation of a single form. This could well be one such case. Yet I
        would expect A-stem verbs to be able to make the same distinction between
        aorist and continuative forms as the primary verbs can make (e.g. _quete_
        "says" vs. _quéta_ "is saying"). Especially in a constructed language I
        would expect considerable structural symmetry. Maybe CFH is aware of
        _another_, more certain way of maintaining this distinction in the case of
        A-stem verbs? We would of course be glad to hear about that as well.

        - HF
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        On 6/2/02 6:56 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger ... No, that is not the main question at all, which if you d curb your usual knee-jerk
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 2, 2002
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          On 6/2/02 6:56 PM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
          wrote:

          > The main question is what tense or form _órea_ really represents.
          >
          No, that is not the main question at all, which if you'd curb your usual
          knee-jerk reaction and actually read what I wrote, you'd see. The real
          questions are: Is _órea_ just a passing fancy of Tolkien's, as the
          contrasting forms on the very same page suggest may be the case? Is a
          present continuative ending in _-ea_ likewise just a passing fancy, like so
          many other grammatical devices in Tolkien's writings?

          > Especially in a constructed language I would expect considerable structural
          > symmetry.
          >
          That is a most unreasonable expectation, especially of Tolkien's languages.
          But I expect this does explain your willingness to eschew any reasonable
          standards of evidence, so that you can cling to this "solution" to what
          _you_ have decided is a problem and apply it to every verb is sight.

          > Maybe CFH is aware of _another_, more certain way of maintaining this
          > distinction in the case of A-stem verbs?
          >
          Who says this distinction _has_ to be maintained across all verb classes? It
          may well be that some verb classes simply don't have a formal aorist/present
          continuative distinction. In other words, Quenya might behave just like real
          languages in not having perfect parallelism across all verb classes.


          |======================================================================|
          | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
          | |
          | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
          | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
          | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
          | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
          | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
          |======================================================================|
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