Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Help, please !

Expand Messages
  • morfiwen
    I ve a big problem : For the present, I don t know what are the verbs who take an accent ! I know for sil-, sila (with an accent on the i) but I don t know for
    Message 1 of 8 , May 31, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      I've a big problem : For the present, I don't know what are the verbs
      who take an accent ! I know for sil-, sila (with an accent on the i)
      but I don't know for the other. Please, help me !I'm a beginner in
      Quenya, so I want help !
      Morfiwen
    • Kai MacTane
      ... I think what you re looking for is this: When conjugated in the present (continuative, not aorist) tense, primary verbs (those which don t end in -a) have
      Message 2 of 8 , May 31, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        At 5/31/02 12:41 AM , morfiwen wrote:
        >I've a big problem : For the present, I don't know what are the verbs
        >who take an accent ! I know for sil-, sila (with an accent on the i)
        >but I don't know for the other. Please, help me !I'm a beginner in
        >Quenya, so I want help !

        I think what you're looking for is this:

        When conjugated in the present (continuative, not aorist) tense, primary
        verbs (those which don't end in -a) have their stem-vowels lengthened
        (i.e., they become accented). For example:

        sil- > síla ("is/am shining")
        tec- > téca ("am/is writing")

        When conjugating derived verbs (ones that end in -a, -ya, -ta or -na) the
        rule gets a teensy bit more complex. You affix -ea to the verb, and you
        lengthen (accent) the vowel, *unless* the vowel is followed by a "consonant
        cluster" (two or more consonants, including y). So:

        cenda- > cendea ("are/is reading")
        harya- > haryea ("has, is having")
        lilta- > liltea ("are/is dancing")

        but:

        cala- > cálea ("are/is shining")
        mapa- > mápea ("are/is seizing")

        I hope that helps.

        --Kai MacTane
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        "I looked Death in the face last night,/I saw him in a mirror,
        And he simply smiled,/He told me not to worry:
        He told me just to take my time."
        --Oingo Boingo,
        "We Close Our Eyes"
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... All of this is pure conjecture on Helge s part, based on a single, unglossed (by Tolkien) example (_órea_) of (as yet) uncertain status (even to me). It
        Message 3 of 8 , May 31, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          On 5/31/02 1:59 PM, "Kai MacTane" <kmactane@...> wrote:

          > When conjugating derived verbs (ones that end in -a, -ya, -ta or -na) the
          > rule gets a teensy bit more complex. You affix -ea to the verb, and you
          > lengthen (accent) the vowel, *unless* the vowel is followed by a "consonant
          > cluster" (two or more consonants, including y). So:

          All of this is pure conjecture on Helge's part, based on a single, unglossed
          (by Tolkien) example (_órea_) of (as yet) uncertain status (even to me). It
          is misleading to present this as factual, and the "examples" you provide as
          anything other than unattested fabrications.

          > cenda- > cendea ("are/is reading")

          *Unattested.

          > harya- > haryea ("has, is having")

          *Unattested.

          > lilta- > liltea ("are/is dancing")

          *Unattested.

          > cala- > cálea ("are/is shining")

          *Unattested.

          > mapa- > mápea ("are/is seizing")

          *Unattested.

          From the list guidelines:

          "2) When you make arguments, please do your best to base your arguments on
          facts (either documentary evidence, or well-argued inductive or deductive
          proof). Argument from authority is not usually good here, and broad
          assertions will elicit a request for supporting evidence."


          |======================================================================|
          | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
          | |
          | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
          | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
          | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
          | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
          | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
          |======================================================================|
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... Oops, my bad in one respect: this isn t Elfling, it s the Quenya list! (But then, you knew that.) Still, the principle applies.
          Message 4 of 8 , May 31, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            On 5/31/02 2:34 PM, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:

            > From the list guidelines:
            >
            > "2) When you make arguments, please do your best to base your arguments on
            > facts (either documentary evidence, or well-argued inductive or deductive
            > proof). Argument from authority is not usually good here, and broad
            > assertions will elicit a request for supporting evidence."

            Oops, my bad in one respect: this isn't Elfling, it's the Quenya list! (But
            then, you knew that.) Still, the principle applies.


            |======================================================================|
            | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
            | |
            | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
            | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
            | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
            | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
            | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
            |======================================================================|
          • Kai MacTane
            ... The principle does indeed still apply. I felt the question being asked, and the setting, were fairly informal, and so gave an informal answer. However,
            Message 5 of 8 , May 31, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              At 5/31/02 11:42 AM , Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
              >On 5/31/02 2:34 PM, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
              >
              > > From the list guidelines:
              > >
              > > "2) When you make arguments, please do your best to base your arguments on
              > > facts (either documentary evidence, or well-argued inductive or deductive
              > > proof). Argument from authority is not usually good here, and broad
              > > assertions will elicit a request for supporting evidence."
              >
              >Oops, my bad in one respect: this isn't Elfling, it's the Quenya list! (But
              >then, you knew that.) Still, the principle applies.

              The principle does indeed still apply. I felt the question being asked, and
              the setting, were fairly informal, and so gave an informal answer. However,
              your points about the theoretical and unsupported nature of this
              conjugation are quite accurate.

              Morfiwen, please do note Carl's point: the stuff I told you is extremely
              speculative. (And I should have remembered that and said so in my post.)

              --Kai MacTane
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
              "Death and money make their point once more,
              In the shape of philosophical assassins..."
              --Shriekback,
              "Gunning for the
              Buddha"
            • Gaius Caligula
              All present tense verbs take an accent (which isn t a true accent. It just means that the vowel is pronounced long) on the stem vowel, unless that vowel comes
              Message 6 of 8 , May 31, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                All present tense verbs take an accent (which isn't a true accent. It
                just means that the vowel is pronounced long) on the stem vowel, unless
                that vowel comes right before a consonant cluster. Like sil- is s�la
                and cen- is c�na, but lanta- has the present tense lanta, not l�nta.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: morfiwen <euphrasie69@...>
                Date: Friday, May 31, 2002 5:41 pm
                Subject: [quenya] Help, please !

                > <html><body>
                >
                >
                > <tt>
                > I've a big problem : For the present, I don't know what are the
                > verbs
                >
                > who take an accent ! I know for sil-, sila (with an accent on the
                > i)
                >
                > but I don't know for the other. Please, help me !I'm a beginner in
                >
                > Quenya, so I want help !
                >
                > Morfiwen
                >
                >
                >
                > </tt>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                >
                > <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
                > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
                > <td align=center><font size="-1" color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups
                > Sponsor</b></font></td></tr>
                > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
                > <td align=center width=470><table border=0 cellpadding=0
                > cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font face=arial size=-
                > 2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><img src="http:</td></tr></table></td>
                > </tr>
                > <tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=226014.2032696.3508022.1829184/D=e
                groupmail/S=1707208988:H</td></tr></table><!-- |**|end egp html
                banner|**| -->
                >
                > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service.</tt></br>
                >
                > </body></html>
                >
                >

                ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                Would you like to receive faxes to your personal email address?
                You can with mBox. Visit http://www.mbox.com.au/fax
              • Helge K. Fauskanger
                ... rule gets a teensy bit more complex. You affix -ea to the verb, and you lengthen (accent) the vowel, *unless* the vowel is followed by a consonant
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 2, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Kai MacTane wrote:

                  > When conjugating derived verbs (ones that end in -a, -ya, -ta or -na) the
                  rule gets a teensy bit more complex. You affix -ea to the verb, and you
                  lengthen (accent) the vowel, *unless* the vowel is followed by a "consonant
                  cluster" (two or more consonants, including y).

                  Carl F. Hostetter responded:

                  > All of this is pure conjecture on Helge's part, based on a single,
                  unglossed (by Tolkien) example (_órea_) of (as yet) uncertain status (even
                  to me). It is misleading to present this as factual, and the "examples" you
                  provide as anything other than unattested fabrications.

                  (Ah, there is the F word again...one favorite of CFH's, along with
                  "counterproductive", "dishonorable" and of course "copyright".) No, this
                  info is in no way confirmed or certain, and I think I make that quite clear
                  in the relevant section of my Quenya course.

                  > mapa- > mápea ("are/is seizing")

                  [CFH:] *Unattested.

                  Unattested, yes. But then the nominative plural of (say) _norsa_ "a giant"
                  is not attested either. However, if anyone were to assert that Tolkien
                  didn't mean the plural form to be _norsar_, they should probably invest in
                  a new Ouija board.

                  If _ora-_ "to urge" appears as _órea_ in one particular tense, it seems to
                  be a VERY fair assumption that _mapa-_ "to seize" would appear as _mápea_
                  in the same tense. Of course, the suggestion that _órea_ represents a
                  "present" or continative form comes from CFH himself. If he has discovered
                  something new about this form that has made him doubt his own
                  identification, we would all be glad to hear about it.

                  As for forms like _cendea_ "is reading" from _cenda-_ "to read", it does
                  represent an extrapolation based on our general understanding of Quenya
                  phonology. Before a consonant cluster, the stem-vowel cannot be lengthened
                  and would therefore remain short (attested parallels exist for the perfect
                  tense). I do think that if _ora-_ appears as _órea_ in one tense, it is
                  entirely plausible to assume that _cenda-_ would appear as _cendea_ in the
                  same tense. The main question is what tense or form _órea_ really
                  represents. I guess this could easily remain as conjectural as the precise
                  meaning of Sindarin _aen_.

                  CFH's colleague Bill Welden recently observed that regarding details of
                  Quenya grammar, "answers will never be clear" and would often depend on the
                  interpretation of a single form. This could well be one such case. Yet I
                  would expect A-stem verbs to be able to make the same distinction between
                  aorist and continuative forms as the primary verbs can make (e.g. _quete_
                  "says" vs. _quéta_ "is saying"). Especially in a constructed language I
                  would expect considerable structural symmetry. Maybe CFH is aware of
                  _another_, more certain way of maintaining this distinction in the case of
                  A-stem verbs? We would of course be glad to hear about that as well.

                  - HF
                • Carl F. Hostetter
                  On 6/2/02 6:56 PM, Helge K. Fauskanger ... No, that is not the main question at all, which if you d curb your usual knee-jerk
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 2, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 6/2/02 6:56 PM, "Helge K. Fauskanger" <helge.fauskanger@...>
                    wrote:

                    > The main question is what tense or form _órea_ really represents.
                    >
                    No, that is not the main question at all, which if you'd curb your usual
                    knee-jerk reaction and actually read what I wrote, you'd see. The real
                    questions are: Is _órea_ just a passing fancy of Tolkien's, as the
                    contrasting forms on the very same page suggest may be the case? Is a
                    present continuative ending in _-ea_ likewise just a passing fancy, like so
                    many other grammatical devices in Tolkien's writings?

                    > Especially in a constructed language I would expect considerable structural
                    > symmetry.
                    >
                    That is a most unreasonable expectation, especially of Tolkien's languages.
                    But I expect this does explain your willingness to eschew any reasonable
                    standards of evidence, so that you can cling to this "solution" to what
                    _you_ have decided is a problem and apply it to every verb is sight.

                    > Maybe CFH is aware of _another_, more certain way of maintaining this
                    > distinction in the case of A-stem verbs?
                    >
                    Who says this distinction _has_ to be maintained across all verb classes? It
                    may well be that some verb classes simply don't have a formal aorist/present
                    continuative distinction. In other words, Quenya might behave just like real
                    languages in not having perfect parallelism across all verb classes.


                    |======================================================================|
                    | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@... http://www.elvish.org |
                    | |
                    | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. |
                    | Ars longa, vita brevis. |
                    | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. |
                    | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take |
                    | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." |
                    |======================================================================|
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.