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[Q] 'baptism' (Re: Lamb, Shepherd etc)

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  • Petri Tikka
    ... Well, Finnish has no special word for baptize , just _kasta-_ the same word as for moisten , water and wetten , but it still feels quite somber
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 15, 2003
      Tom Killingbeck wrote:

      > _linquitanyel essessë Ataro, ar Yondo, ar Ainasúleo. Násië!_
      > (Lit: "I moisten you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and
      > the Holy Spirit. Amen!") It seems to be lacking the somber and
      > lofty notion of baptism, with its mystique... maybe ?

      Well, Finnish has no special word for "baptize", just _kasta-_ the
      same word as for "moisten", "water" and "wetten", but it still feels
      quite somber enough: _Kasta-n sinu-t Isä-n ja Poja-n ja Pyhä-n Henge-
      n nime-en._ "Moisten-I thou-(acc.) Father-s and Son-s and Holy-s
      Breath-s name-to._ The loftiness comes from the context.

      I would rather prase the Quenya as _Linquitanyel essenen Atarwa ar
      Yondova ar Airefeava_, although yours might be as good, except for
      the unattested **_Ainasúle_. It has been obsoleted by the attested
      _Airefea_ in _airefean_ "to the Holy Spirit" (VT43:37).

      > _allinquítala_ "high-moistening" from _ar "high, lofty" +
      > *_linquita_ "?to cause to be moisten, to
      > dunk" + _la_ (and vowel lengthening it causes) "the active
      > participle suffix", or something, but then we move from the
      > sublime to the ridiculous!

      You said it! ;)

      - P.S. Tikka
    • Petri Tikka
      ... is LINKWI- ... the ... would ... has ... of ... feel ... (Lit: I ... of ... moistening ... participle
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 15, 2003
        --- In quenya@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Killingbeck"
        <tntkillingbeck@a...> wrote:
        > Petri Tikka wrote:
        > 'The closest stem I could find with something like these
        is 'LINKWI-
        > Q _linque_ wet. N _lhimp_; _lhimmid_ moisten (pa.t. _lhimmint)'
        > (LR:369). The stem has both 'wetten' and 'moisten' covered. From
        the
        > stem, *_linkwita-_would be the PE causal verb formation, whence
        would
        > regularly come the attested S/N _lhimmid-_, and an unattested Q
        > *_linquita-_. Thence *_linquitale_ would be a verbal noun.'
        >
        > Thomas Ferencz wrote:
        > 'The ritual of baptism I think derives ultimately from anointing,
        > doesn't it? So maybe LIB- _laiwe_ "ointment" *liv- "anoint"
        > *líve "baptism"??'
        >
        > Now I write:
        > I am not sure about the anointing business! (_lámatyávë_, you
        > understand) And here is why: anointing in the Christian religion
        has
        > a very different meaning. It is more used in connection with acts
        of
        > _envinyátala_ "healing" and that aspect. I (personal opinion)
        feel
        > that the _linquita-_ form would be more "spiritually" correct,
        > although the English translation leaves a lot to be desired...
        > _linquitanyel essessë Ataro, ar Yondo, ar Ainasúleo. Násië!_
        (Lit: "I
        > moisten you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy
        > Spirit. Amen!") It seems to be lacking the somber and lofty notion
        of
        > baptism, with its mystique... maybe ?_allinquítala_ "high-
        moistening"
        > from _ar "high, lofty" + *_linquita_ "?to cause to be moisten, to
        > dunk" + _la_ (and vowel lengthening it causes) "the active
        participle
        > suffix", or something, but then we move from the sublime to the
        > ridiculous!
        >
        > Any other thoughts?
        >
        > Onóno Cilionellë
        >
        > "Áva hehta cálë, Fírima,
        > An harnas firyar hendi, envinyatas!
        > Cálessë - Estellondë,
        > Cálessë - Estellondë!"
      • kcdubois
        Aiya ilyë- Mabey you could use somethign like: ennosta the verb to be born again Just a thought, got the idea from a friend at LEAF. It seems like it covers
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 16, 2003
          Aiya ilyë-
          Mabey you could use somethign like:
          ennosta the verb "to be born again"
          Just a thought, got the idea from a friend at LEAF. It seems like it covers spiritually what being baptized is about.
          Warmest Regards,
          Rayariel
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: briyo2289
          Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 2:08 PM
          Subject: [quenya] [Q] 'baptism' (Re: Lamb, Shepherd etc)

          --- In quenya@yahoogroups.com, "Petri Tikka" <kari.j.tikka@w...>
          wrote:
          > Patrick H. Wynne wrote:
          >
          > > Tom Killingbeck wrote:
          > > [...]
          > > > Mana quettar 'faith'en ar 'mercy'n? Hirnen 'voronwe'
          ar 'estel',
          > > > nan 'estel' naa 'hope', ar 'voronwe' naa 'faithfulness'? Yando,
          > > > mana quettar 'baptism'en?
          > > [...]
          > > There is, to my knowledge, no attested Q. word for 'baptism'.
          >
          > Neither to mine. The concept is quite important, as both Tolkien
          > himself and his works are inherently Christian (at _least_ if you
          > take his word for it). So it might very well be hidden deep
          > somewhere in his papers. But perhaps one could be coined, for
          > *Vinquenya purposes?. Let's see what we can come up with.
          >
          > The English word _baptize_ comes (via Latin) from the Greek
          > _baptizo_ 'immerse', which itself comes from _bapto_ 'dip'.
          > Similarly, the Finnish word for the concept, _kaste_, comes from
          > _kasta-_ 'dip, immerse, moisten'. Finnish also has another word for
          > 'baptize': _risti-_ 'cross'. In a like manner, Hungarian
          > _kerezstség_ 'baptism' is derived (?) from _kereszt_ 'cross'. So we
          > have at least these synonyms for 'baptize': 'cross', 'dip',
          > 'immerse' and 'moisten'. Addiotionally, there might be 'submerge'
          > and 'wetten'.
          >
          > The closest stem I could find with something like these is
          > 'LINKWI- Q _linque_ wet. N _lhimp_; _lhimmid_ moisten
          > (pa.t. _lhimmint)' (LR:369). The stem has both 'wetten' and
          > 'moisten' covered. From the stem, *_linkwita-_would be the PE
          > causal verb formation, whence would regularly come the attested
          > S/N _lhimmid-_, and an unattested Q *_linquita-_. Thence
          > *_linquitale_ would be a verbal noun.
          >
          > This is the best *Vinquenya word I could think for 'baptism'.
          > Any other suggestions?
          >
          > - P.S. Tikka


          another translation of baptisim is to be "clenased spiritually" by
          God.  my translation of that would be  Poyfea or Poifea - to clean
          or cleanse the spirit
          any comments?



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