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Re: [qiresearch] Digest Number 160

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  • YMAA Dublin
    Re: Nostradamus foresees the role of Qigong Isn t this a research group? How did this post get on here? I thought this group was moderated. This kind of thing
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 28, 2002
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      Re: Nostradamus foresees the role of Qigong

      Isn't this a research group? How did this post get on here? I thought this group was moderated.

      This kind of thing gives us all a bad name - rambling, subjective, self congratulatory and
      pseudo-philosophical - and not a bit of science anywhere in its contents.

      Carol Stephenson

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
      To: <qiresearch@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:13 PM
      Subject: [qiresearch] Digest Number 160


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      There are 5 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Biophoton emission
      From: "louise28201" <silke.blume@...>
      2. Nostradamus foresees the role of Qigong
      From: "hanlin_academy" <hanlin_academy@...>
      3. Re: Biophoton emission
      From: "Kenneth M. Sancier" <matsu@...>
      4. Re: Biophoton emission
      From: savva@...
      5. Re: Biophoton emission
      From: rjahnke <rjahnke@...>


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:47:29 -0000
      From: "louise28201" <silke.blume@...>
      Subject: Biophoton emission

      Dear Friends,
      some of you might know, I am in the research phase for a tv
      documentary on scientific qigong research.
      During my research I came across the Biophoton research by Professor
      Popp in Germany. But I am stuck , confused and wonder if somebody can
      help. The question is : is Biophotons and qi the same?
      Prof Popp thinks so, but some of his collaborateurs do see it
      differently. They say that the measured "biophoton emission from the
      hand of a qigong master" is not qi itself but the effect that the
      masters qi has on the (the masters and the environmental )biophoton
      field.
      Here we are coming back to the same question as usual : is qi
      measurable by hard science?


      With big interest I have read (in this forum)a summary of Dr E
      Wallace dissertation entitled: Alteration of Biophotonemission by
      Intention. Dr Wallace suggests that biophoton emission measurement
      could "be the first direct reproducible laboratory evidence of qi".

      I would be very glad to discuss this and if anybody suggests further
      reading.

      best regards Silke Blume
      silke.blume@...



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 2
      Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:58:02 -0000
      From: "hanlin_academy" <hanlin_academy@...>
      Subject: Nostradamus foresees the role of Qigong

      NOSTRADAMUS FORESEES THE ROLE OF QIGONG

      The humankind for a long has lived through a dreadful anxiety and
      horror, in its pursuit to explain Nostradamus' quatrain about July,
      1999 [X - 72].

      At last, this date has passed, the new millennium has come and the
      people have drew a sigh of relief. For a short. The events from the
      last autumn on again set up the humankind on alert...

      Whether Nostradamus wanted to frighten the people with his
      prophecies? Or, he just wanted to have a joke? Or, as some interpret,
      he has made a mistake in the calculations, and the "end of world" has
      been postponed? Neither the one, nor the other, nor the third. The
      great scientist had a profound understanding on the objective laws of
      Universe and their impact on people. With a unprejudiced exposition
      and love to humanity, he has strived to forewarn it, to
      awaken it, so that the people do all what is in the frames of their
      abilities to avoid the disasters. Because, the movements in Universe
      follow their objective laws and cyclic recurrence, and the Earth
      (including everything on her) is subordinate to their influence:
      every part and every detail naturally comply to the general movement
      of the Cosmic whole!

      For Nostradamus, the year of 1999 represents a partitioning line, in
      which the principles of the old and the new epoch collide. He knows
      that the change of one big cycle with another, what are, for example,
      two millenniums, is made uneasily. The cataclysms in Nature and
      society continue before and after the boundary of two cycles, until a
      new equilibrium is achieved. That is why, after the beginning of the
      new millennium, there occur many unhealthy phenomena.

      Our present day still has not drift far from the restless transition
      period toward the New epoch. The people should be wakeful: they
      should search for the true path toward their own liberation from the
      circle of negative influences, so that to make their life better and
      continue the advancement of humanity. The heaven does not
      exterminate the humans, neither it takes up with their salvation, but
      instead grants them the opportunity to attain their freedom and
      advancement on their own. Nostradamus has clearly understood this
      truth.

      Thus, along with the objective analysis on the cyclic changes in
      Universe and their reflection on humankind, he has also looked for
      the reverse tendency, which can give a hope to the people. Because,
      within Yin there is also Yang, therefore, such a tendency always
      exists in reality in Nature.

      When Nostradamus recounts to Katherine de Medici, the then queen of
      France, about the future hardships of humanity, the queen asks him
      whether he knows a way that will help the people to evade the
      terrible events - whether aliens, or a new race, or something else,
      some kind of thing, for example, would not help them? Or, the
      dreadful calamities inevitably must happen? Nostradamus replies
      to her that there is only one way to avoid the misfortunes, but this
      does not pertain to the assumptions listed by her: neither aliens,
      nor any kind of thing could rescue the humankind. The terrible events
      might not happen only if in the future, near before the time of the
      great tumult, there occur a new phenomenon. What is it, he cannot
      clearly name it, but he feels that only if this phenomenon manifest
      itself in advance, the humanity for sure would change its previous
      way of living, avoid its self-destruction, revive and start to
      build a completely different human world.

      Although he fails to give it a name, Nostradamus has felt this
      phenomenon as really existing in Nature, he has sensed that it flows
      both in Universe and throughout the human world. Moreover, in several
      quatrains he precisely describes the characteristics of this
      phenomenon, which, according to him, will save the world.

      Now we live in the time, which Nostradamus had in mind. Let's think
      about: what did before the end of last century manifest itself as a
      new phenomenon in society, which actually possesses the power and the
      potentiality to completely transform the humans, their health,
      understandings and behavior. The unknown phenomenon, according to
      Nostradamus, should had happened before 1999.

      During the 50s, in the middle of 20th century, there really occurred
      one phenomenon of this type: qigong, an ancient teaching on the
      objective connections between Man and Universe, which also comprises
      practices for physical and spiritual development of the people,
      overcame the limits of the separate schools. In the end of the 70s
      and the beginning of the 80s, qigong started to spread quickly and
      extensively throughout all over the Earth. For less than 10 years,
      the interest toward qigong around the world increased to such an
      extend that it indeed became a large-scale phenomenon and now,
      according to the statistics, the people practicing qigong are more
      than those practicing all types of sport, martial arts and other
      methods brought together.

      Why namely qigong is the phenomenon, about which Nostradamus speaks
      during his meeting with Katherine de Medici? Because qigong is a
      natural product and is not made up by the humans. It contains
      objective knowledge and natural techniques for increasing qi. And, qi
      (the vital energy), which is accumulated and cultivated in the human
      body through qigong, represents the power capable to regulate and
      balance the human being, to help his attain healthy body and
      mind, expand his knowledge on the objective world, modify his
      behavior, change his fate and equibalance his connections with
      Nature. Qi - the energy - by and large exists objectively not only
      within the human, but also in environment. It is everywhere in the
      great cosmic space, a fundamental constructive unit for all things
      and occurrences. Qi has the most omnipresent nature. All things in
      Universe are connected through it in a invisible net. That is why, it
      is an expression of the greatest whole and unity in Nature. Not a
      living being could exist without it. The physical and spiritual
      health of man is based on, regulated and developed thanks to qi. The
      harmony in Universe also is maintained and relies on this fine
      substance.

      And, because qigong views these subjects scientifically, from the
      point of the objective truth, without doubt, it is the very
      phenomenon, which Nostradamus refers to. Not accidentally, many of
      the qigong practitioners after a time confide that the positive
      changes in their personality are so significant that, as if they have
      become other people, as if they live a new live.

      Among the quatrains of the great scientist, there are at least three,
      in which are described specific issues, related to the training and
      nature of this teaching:

      [III-2] Le diuin verbe pourra à la substance,
      Comprins ciel, terre, or occult au fait mystique
      Corps, ame, esprit ayant toute puissance,
      Tant soubs ses pieds comme au siege Celique.

      The divine word will give to the sustenance
      Including heaven, earth, gold hidden in the mystic milk:
      Body, soul, spirit having all power
      As much under its feet as the Heavenly see.

      The gold of the knowledge about qi has been hidden till now in mystic
      attires. Yet, only thanks to qi, "body, soul and spirit" could be
      genuinely powerful. There comes a time, when the people learn about
      the objective truth about the substance - the invisible, but material
      energy, intrinsic to all things, to the humans and the whole
      Universe, in order to overcome their problems. Indeed,
      only qi - the most profound original substance, of which are
      construct all things in Nature, has the power to transform their
      quality, and thus, the direction of their development.

      [IV-25] Corps sublimes sans fin à l'oil visibles,
      Obnubiler viendra par ses raisons,
      Corps, front comprins, sens, chef & inuisibles,
      Diminuant les sacrees oraisons.

      Lofty bodies endlessly visible to the eye,
      Through these reasons they will come to obscure;
      Body, forehead included, sense and head invisible,
      Diminishing the sacred prayers.

      In the process of qi cultivation, the fine matter of energy becomes
      visible for the human eyes. The obscurity in the understanding is due
      to one's insufficient knowledge on the natural truths. When one
      practices qigong, however, in the state of profound meditation one
      stops to feel the body, mind and the senses ("forehead included"),
      which as if become intangible, while the consciousness at the same
      time attains extraordinary clarity and unison with Universe. Then,
      one realizes that one should not rely only on prayers and like
      the children always to beg for something from his Father, but one
      should also rely on his own work and endeavors in order to achieve
      his health and enlightenment.

      [V-96] Sur le milieu du grand monde la rose,
      Pour nouueaux faits sang public espandu,
      A dire vray on aura bouche close,
      Lors au besoin viendra tard l'attendu.

      The rose upon the middle of the great world,
      For new deeds public shedding of blood:
      To speak the truth, one will have a closed mouth,
      Then at the time of need the awaited one will come late.

      There should not always understand the words in their direct literal
      meaning. Here, the word is not about shedding of blood. The new
      deeds, which are able to transform the people and the Path of
      humanity, demand to "give blood", i.e. to exert great endeavors.
      Efforts and work are required.

      In order to change one's life and behavior, one first will have to
      realize this necessity and change his way of thinking. To understand
      the Truth of life, to understand the Human and the natural Way toward
      the further evolution, and the interconnections between humanity and
      the Cosmos. However, in order to cognize the Truth and then to
      "speak" correctly for it, one first will have to master and utilize
      the right method for its achievement: to relax "with a closed mouth"
      and eyes, so that to let one's inner matter restore qi (energy),
      which will help him to attain health, mental harmony and
      enlightenment. In other words, one has to practice meditation. Yet,
      namely this quiet exercise is the most important in the system of
      qigong.

      Nostradamus points out that the knowledge on this method ("the rose")
      will come (it will blossom) from "the middle of the great world",
      i.e. from the Middle Country, what in translation from Chinese means
      the name of China.

      In other places he again repeats: the knowledge would be brought "from
      Tataria", as by that time in Europe often have called China, and what
      all of Nostradamus interpreters have noticed.

      Thus, in his quatrains Nostradamus shows us that only qi (the energy)
      is that huge invisible power in Universe, on Earth and in the human
      nature, which transforms the people, their values and fate. Only
      through its increase and cultivation within the human beings, it
      becomes possible in a natural way to balance and regulate the
      interconnections between the peoples, so that they be
      able to limit and even evade the "terrible disasters". And only qi is
      in a position to change the humanity's path toward light and peace,
      in a harmony with Nature.

      Wang Jianjun
      Hanlin Academy
      hanlin_academy@...

      February 2nd, 2002, Sofia

      PS: D-r Wang Jianjun is a prominent qigong scientist, president of
      Hanlin Academy. Member of the Chinese Scientific Institute for Human
      Research, the Chinese Qigong Scientific Research Association, the
      Chinese Medicine Association of China and member of the Governing
      Board of Ecoforum for Peace World Movement to the United Nations. He
      is author of several books, including on "Natural Qigong" ("Wuwei
      Qigong") and numerous scientific articles. Many times before July,
      1999, d-r Wang Jianjun repeatedly explained in his lectures that "the
      end of world" will not come and that the meaning, put by Nostradamus
      in this phrase is another: an end of the old time and a beginning of
      the new; however the transition period between them is not easily
      accomplished and it is accompanied by many phenomena of struggle
      between the positive and negative trends in Nature and society.






      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:07:48 -0800
      From: "Kenneth M. Sancier" <matsu@...>
      Subject: Re: Biophoton emission

      Dear Silke:

      I have no evidence, nor have I seen any that shows that biophotons
      are qi. Rather I believe that biophotons result from the conversion
      of biochemical energy (perhaps qi) into light quanta.

      I suggest that you consult with Dr. Mikio Yamamoto and his colleagues
      who recently have done research in this area. They may have a
      valuable point of view.

      Email: m_yamamo@...

      The International Society of Life Information Science publishes a
      journal reporting some of this research. Incidentally, abstracts in
      English and Japanese of articles published over the past several
      years are accessible at their website.

      website: <wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/islis/index.htm>

      Best qi,

      Kenneth M. Sancier, PhD
      Founder & Chairman of Board, Qigong Institute

      The Qigong Institute aims to serve the public through educational and
      research programs. The information we provide is supported by
      memberships, sale of materials, and donations. Please visit our
      website <http://www.qigonginstitute.org>




      >Dear Friends,
      >some of you might know, I am in the research phase for a tv
      >documentary on scientific qigong research.
      >During my research I came across the Biophoton research by Professor
      >Popp in Germany. But I am stuck , confused and wonder if somebody can
      >help. The question is : is Biophotons and qi the same?
      >Prof Popp thinks so, but some of his collaborateurs do see it
      >differently. They say that the measured "biophoton emission from the
      >hand of a qigong master" is not qi itself but the effect that the
      >masters qi has on the (the masters and the environmental )biophoton
      >field.
      >Here we are coming back to the same question as usual : is qi
      >measurable by hard science?
      >
      >
      >With big interest I have read (in this forum)a summary of Dr E
      >Wallace dissertation entitled: Alteration of Biophotonemission by
      >Intention. Dr Wallace suggests that biophoton emission measurement
      >could "be the first direct reproducible laboratory evidence of qi".
      >
      >I would be very glad to discuss this and if anybody suggests further
      >reading.
      >
      >best regards Silke Blume
      >silke.blume@...
      >
      >
      >
      >To Post a message, send it to: qiresearch@...
      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      >qiresearch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

      Kenneth M. Sancier, PhD
      Founder & Chairman of Board, Qigong Institute

      The Qigong Institute aims to serve the public through educational and
      research programs. The information we provide is supported by
      memberships, sale of materials, and donations. Please visit our
      website <http://www.qigonginstitute.org>


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 4
      Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:16:21 EST
      From: savva@...
      Subject: Re: Biophoton emission

      Dear Silke, see my comments in your text below.

      Savely Savva
      MISAHA
      Carmel, California
      831-622-7975
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Friends,
      > some of you might know, I am in the research phase for a tv
      > documentary on scientific qigong research.
      > During my research I came across the Biophoton research by Professor
      > Popp in Germany. But I am stuck , confused and wonder if somebody can
      > help. The question is : is Biophotons and qi the same?
      > Prof Popp thinks so, but some of his collaborateurs do see it
      > differently. They say that the measured "biophoton emission from the
      > hand of a qigong master" is not qi itself but the effect that the
      > masters qi has on the (the masters and the environmental )biophoton
      > field.
      > Here we are coming back to the same question as usual : is qi
      >

      Not currently and not by means of electromagnetic instrumentation. Simple
      biological systems -- bacteria, cell cultures -- were used to observe Qi
      effects but quantitative reproducibility cannot be achieved in principle
      because the conditions of experiments -- a part of which is the master's mind
      and physiology -- cannot be controlled and/or reproduced. This requires a
      different methodology that is based on a broad (not Heisenberg's) principle
      of uncertainty. See my articles in MISAHA Newsletters at www.whps.com/misahs

      >
      >
      > With big interest I have read (in this forum)a summary of Dr E
      > Wallace dissertation entitled: Alteration of Biophotonemission by
      > Intention. Dr Wallace suggests that biophoton emission measurement
      > could "be the first direct reproducible laboratory evidence of qi".
      >
      > I would be very glad to discuss this and if anybody suggests further
      >

      Biophotons can be considered as carriers of information in one of the
      organisms' control subsystems. The general control system (GCS) of the
      organism that holds all four fundamental programs of life (development,
      maintenance, reproduction and death) is carried by the biofield, in my
      hypothesis, that can be identified as Qi. Qi communication influences the GCS
      that reacts in many ways including emission of biophotons.

      Good luck.





      [This message contained attachments]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 5
      Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:37:23 -0800
      From: rjahnke <rjahnke@...>
      Subject: Re: Biophoton emission

      Glad you are working on this.

      I have just finished a writing project wherein we discuss the 4
      equivalents of Qi in human systems: biological (function),
      bioenergetic (ion conductance), biofield (magnetic and
      bioluminescence) and quantum (consciousness unlimited in time and
      space, boundlessness, Dao)

      After 30 years of practice (personal Tai Chi and Qigong and
      professional as a Doctor of Chinese Medicine) and research into the
      mechanisms of Qi, it has become pretty clear that to try to make Qi
      equivalent to one aspect of the Western paradigm will just lead to
      frustration --- OR EVEN BETTER, this quest will lead to a revolution
      in Western science (may already be occurring through the quantum
      discussion) which could finally reveal that one underlying feature of
      our world that the Chinese revere as Qi.

      Qi is function AND ion conductance AND organically sustained fields
      of emanation including magnetic, infrared and photonic frequencies
      AND the boundless field of shared consciousness AND (I would propose)
      more.

      Our challenge and our fun is -- my opinion -- less to discover what
      (that we know in Western science) is the Qi and more to begin to
      accept the fact that Qi is much more than could ever be forced into
      any sort of category of science (or of nature) as determined by the
      Western framework for describing or experiencing the world.

      I advocate that we try to let it be true that Qi is pervasive
      throughout the entire universe and perhaps beyond -- that it is
      inherent and that it is infused throughout all contexts.

      Qi would then be prevalent in biological function (as well as in
      weather and geography, etc), the exchange across a system of ions and
      potential, the fields generated by life (including in stone and other
      systems not biologically alive) and the quantum fabric of the
      boundless.

      This does not solve your challenge but I would love your impression
      as well as the impression of other readers.

      If you want to pursue the Popp work I can dig out an address for a
      professor Von Wyjk (a Popp colleague) who I have met and reference in
      the noted Chapter on Qi equivalents in The Healing Promise of Qi. Dr
      Sancier's reference will lead you into some of the same territory.

      Sincerely,

      Roger Jahnke, OMD
      The Healing Promise of Qi

      >Dear Friends,
      >some of you might know, I am in the research phase for a tv
      >documentary on scientific qigong research.
      >During my research I came across the Biophoton research by Professor
      >Popp in Germany. But I am stuck , confused and wonder if somebody can
      >help. The question is : is Biophotons and qi the same?
      >Prof Popp thinks so, but some of his collaborateurs do see it
      >differently. They say that the measured "biophoton emission from the
      >hand of a qigong master" is not qi itself but the effect that the
      >masters qi has on the (the masters and the environmental )biophoton
      >field.
      >Here we are coming back to the same question as usual : is qi
      >measurable by hard science?
      >
      >
      >With big interest I have read (in this forum)a summary of Dr E
      >Wallace dissertation entitled: Alteration of Biophotonemission by
      >Intention. Dr Wallace suggests that biophoton emission measurement
      >could "be the first direct reproducible laboratory evidence of qi".
      >
      >I would be very glad to discuss this and if anybody suggests further
      >reading.
      >
      >best regards Silke Blume
      >silke.blume@...
      >
      >
      >
      >To Post a message, send it to: qiresearch@...
      >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      >qiresearch-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


      Health Action, Santa Barbara, CA
      http://www.HealerWithin.com
      805-685-4670

      "When each of the people do the small job of taking care of
      themselves, the large job of taking care of everyone is automatically
      completed."


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Martin, Paul
      In discussing highly specific definitions of qi, I think that we may be stuck in a Newtonian mind set of force A acting on object B has an outcome C. As our
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 1, 2002
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        In discussing highly specific definitions of qi, I think that we may be
        stuck in a Newtonian mind set of force A acting on object B has an outcome
        C. As our technology enables us to observe smaller units of mass/energy,
        lets not loose sight of the human body as being an extremely complex
        relationship of countless waves/particles. To attempt to define qi as
        photon emission, or heat, or magnetism, or sound, or any one observable
        phenomena, is too limited to be useful in and of its self. Scientific
        repeatable experiments measuring these specific studies helps to broaden our
        understanding, but only of that unique quality. I believe that qi healing,
        being driven by a highly aware force, has an intelligence (if you will
        permit the humanization)capable of utilizing any and all forces necessary to
        affect a positive outcome (healing). A high level qigong master is more
        effective only because he/she has a greater range or wider variety of
        options to use, either consciously or by 'letting go' and allowing the
        forces of qi to oscillate through a wide band. As a student healer I often
        have a sense of 'things just coming together', as well as times when I'm
        frustrated by my lack of 'cultivation' and feel that what I was able to
        offer just was not enough.
        As in the realm of quantum physics, we will need to continuously build a
        working vocabulary to describe things that have never been described
        scientifically, before.
        With qi healing being something of a grass roots science, we may never be
        able to say that 20 minutes of exercise A and/or 30 minutes of meditation B
        will cure disease 13. There are just too many variables to account for.
        The best that we can hope for at this time, is perhaps to suggest that
        method A taught by teacher 2 has a positive outcome for patients with
        diagnosis X. If the students of teacher 2 are able to achieve similar
        results then the method A can become a standard therapeutic prescription.
        All of this is still beyond our ability to track to the satisfaction of pure
        scientists.
        I choose to embrace the mystery, not seeking to limit it to definitions,
        only to explore ways to share it. Perhaps in future generations, our work
        today will be recognized as having a positive impact on global health. Qi
        on. Wishing you all health and happiness, Paul.
      • KClark3600@aol.com
        Not that I agree at all with the Nostradomus narrative....but throwing out philosophy altogether and substituting hard science is what got us into the mess
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 1, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Not that I agree at all with the Nostradomus narrative....but throwing out
          "philosophy" altogether and substituting "hard science" is what got us into
          the mess we are in these days with people sometimes discounting Qigong
          because of the difficulties simply with definition and measurement.
          Therefore, I am in favor of allowing a certain amount of out of the box
          discussion; so to speak. Sometimes the most peculiar ideas can give rise to
          those of a more solid substance.
          IMHO,
          Karen Clark (BS Biophysics and Biochemistry) DC, ND
        • Norm Than
          Hi everyone, I m incline to agree with Karen but when too many offer wishy-washy idealogies w/o hard evidence this site turns into a Jerry Springer website.
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 1, 2002
          • 0 Attachment

            Hi everyone,

            I'm incline to agree with Karen but when too many offer wishy-washy idealogies w/o hard evidence this site turns into a Jerry Springer website. Too few masters of Qi will allow themselves to be subjected to tests or will actually demonstrate their abilities, so it makes it harder for hard evidence. If researchers can get Masters like a.k.a John Chang (not his real name) to demonstrate his control of QI then we wouldn't have to constantly defend it's existence but only try to understand it. For those of you who have not heard of John Chang, he was featured in a documentary (called "ring of Fire"), several years back, where he demonstrated his Qi abilities by setting a newspaper on fire. Many have seen that documantary and have been in search of him to become his student. Because of the overwhelming reponse he has since then hid from the public. So you see, getting hard evidence from Masters or people who can control their Qi would be difficult because society (and researchers) always try to extort these peoples abilities... and no one, Master or an ordinary Joe, would want to be exposed to that kind of treatment, scientific or not.

            So why not look at other points of view when discussing Qi Gong, as long as we also try to impliment it with hard evidence.

            Norm



             

            >From: KClark3600@...
            >To: ymaa@..., qiresearch@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Digest Number 160
            >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:59:43 EST
            >
            >Not that I agree at all with the Nostradomus narrative....but throwing out
            >"philosophy" altogether and substituting "hard science" is what got us into
            >the mess we are in these days with people sometimes discounting Qigong
            >because of the difficulties simply with definition and measurement.
            >Therefore, I am in favor of allowing a certain amount of out of the box
            >discussion; so to speak. Sometimes the most peculiar ideas can give rise to
            >those of a more solid substance.
            >IMHO,
            >Karen Clark (BS Biophysics and Biochemistry) DC, ND


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          • Steven Trover
            ... Nostradamus foresees the role of Qigong ... Yes, it is a research group. And that is why everybody who is doing a scientific study on qi can post in this
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 10, 2002
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              --- YMAA Dublin <ymaa@...> wrote: > Re:
              Nostradamus foresees the role of Qigong

              > Isn't this a research group? How did this post get
              > on here? I thought this group was moderated.
              >
              > This kind of thing gives us all a bad name -
              > rambling, subjective, self congratulatory and
              > pseudo-philosophical - and not a bit of science
              > anywhere in its contents.
              >
              > Carol Stephenson

              Yes, it is a research group. And that is why everybody
              who is doing a scientific study on qi can post in this
              group. I wonder what is your definition on "qi
              research"? Because, it includes not only contemorary
              examination of the qi phenomena, but also it
              incomporates research of the ancient and medieval
              understanding of qi. Or, may be I am wrong and this
              group is limited just for 'modern' type of qi study.
              In fact, I was very fascinated reading d-r Wang's
              article on Nostradamus and qigong. It actually shows
              a new perspective on understanding the scientific
              research on qi done during the Renaissance. Perhaps
              you have not read the article very well, because it
              surely is written very objectively and that is a lot
              of science and truth (which hasn't been discovered
              before) in it.
              It is too bad that some colleagues of this group
              hasn't read more on Nostradamus, because he is not
              just an 'astrologer' with his prophecies, but as well
              he is a reknown natural scientist and physician.
              As qigong researchers we all should try always to
              preserve a holistic and objective mind, but not just
              neglect the others' view, just because we are not
              familiar with the issue. That is why, I hope that in
              the future there are going to be even more interesting
              emails on qi research (which won't be censured by the
              moderators!) in this group, like d-r Wang's article.

              Sincerely,

              D-r Steven Trover, PhD
              Holland
            • YMAA Dublin
              Please permit me to reply to those who have taken exception to my criticism of this posting (the Nostradamus article). I refer you to this group s purpose as
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 11, 2002
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                Please permit me to reply to those who have taken exception to my criticism of this posting (the Nostradamus
                article). I refer you to this group's purpose as defined on the home page:

                "Qiresearch - A discussion forum for those who are interested in the scientific exploration of Qigong or human
                subtle energy, and its applications in medicine and our everyday lives... "

                Scientific implies the use of some degree of scientific method. This does not have to be "Newtonian" (direct,
                so-called "empirical" causality) but neither should it degenerate into mere speculation or philosophical
                ramblings.

                In his book "The Marriage of Sense and Soul" Ken Wilber discusses what he calls the "three strands of valid
                knowing" in "broad science", which can be applied to all direct experience, evidence and data, including that
                which is normally seen (by a narrower definition of science) as being subjective and non-empirical. The
                "instrumental injunction" is the practice, exemplar, experiment or paradigm. It says "if you want to know
                this, do this". "Apprehension" is the experience or the data brought forth by the injunction. "Communal
                confirmation" is the checking of the results with others who have completed the injunctive and apprehensive
                strands. This method can be applied equally to "interior" experience such as the practice and experience of
                qigong and to more "exterior" and obviously replicable events.

                The Nostradamus article, while indeed interesting, belongs firmly in the realm of speculation and firmly on
                some other site. What does it add to "research" or "scientific exploration" other than a nice, warm fuzzy
                feeling that we might be on the right track? I think we might be in danger of defining "holistic" as including
                any old thing which supports, or can be interpreted as supporting, our perspective.

                Best wishes to all

                Carol Stephenson


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Steven Trover" <troversteve@...>
                To: "YMAA Dublin" <ymaa@...>
                Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 5:30 AM
                Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Digest Number 160


                --- YMAA Dublin <ymaa@...> wrote: > Re:
                Nostradamus foresees the role of Qigong

                > Isn't this a research group? How did this post get
                > on here? I thought this group was moderated.
                >
                > This kind of thing gives us all a bad name -
                > rambling, subjective, self congratulatory and
                > pseudo-philosophical - and not a bit of science
                > anywhere in its contents.

                I wonder what is your definition of "qi research"?!
                Because, studying and researching qi includes not only
                the examination of the qi phenomena only with
                contemporary medical means but also it incomporates
                research of the ancient and medieval ideas and
                understanding of qi. Or, may be I am wrong and this
                group is only for modern type of studying qi.
                Btw, I was very fascinated by reading d-r Wang's
                article on Nostradamus and qigong. It gives us a new
                perspective on understanding qi.
                Of course, it is another issue if someone of this
                egroup is of a limited scope of understanding or is
                not familiar enough with the scientific research done
                during the Reneassance.
                I think we should all try to preserve a more
                holistic and objective when we do scientific research
                on qigong. And, d-r Wang has shown namely this
                opbjective perspective.

                D-r Steven Trover, PhD
                Holland
              • YMAA Dublin
                Nice one, Mark...but... all I am arguing for is the maintenance of an appropriate focus in this group (which the moderators apparently agree with since they
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 12, 2002
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                  Nice one, Mark...but... all I am arguing for is the maintenance of an appropriate focus in this group (which the moderators apparently agree with since they have stated that the Nostradamus message got through the screening process in error). Otherwise , since qi in the broader sense permeates everything, why not include EVERYTHING in our discussions here! In which case, why bother with this site at all since there are MILLIONS of websites and e-groups addressing EVERYTHING? Why not include Jesus and Buddha? And Hitler and Stalin? And my granny, and my 4-year old, and the wino I encountered on my walk this morning?
                   
                  I must also point out that it is only in Dr. Wang's OPINION that the Nostradamus quatrains refer to qi...and if they do (which is entirely open to interpretation) they still add nothing further to our understanding of the nature, origins, actions or uses of qi in medicine or daily life, and therefor, in my humble opinion as a member of this group, that posting belongs elsewhere.
                   
                  Carol
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:19 AM
                  Subject: Re: [qiresearch] Digest Number 160

                  If Chi can transcend time then who are we to not include the thoughts of Nostradamus?
                  Mark
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